<p>What we’ve found where we live is that everyone within a racial group is so different that to speak of them as a group lacks meaning. You have to relate to each person as an individual.</p>
<p>We tried to get our S to seriously consider OOS publics (UAz & AzSU) where he was offered a full-ride vs. 1/2 tuition at USC but deferred to his preference to attend USC, where he is very happy and thriving. It probably would have been a tougher choice if he had any genuine interest in the U. The $100,000+ extra we’re paying that would not have had to be paid if he took the full-ride would have been nice to help him have other experiences, but we’re OK with the choice he made. D is also there, with no merit aid as a transfer & also loving it & thriving. We will just work longer & know that we’re launching them as best we can.</p>
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<p>That’s kind of my thought too, on contemplating large loans…glad to see it articulated by another parent…</p>
<p>Imagine making another one of life’s economic decisions: buying a car. Suppose it comes down to two choices, both of which are highly-rated luxury sedans. One is twice as expensive as another. This would seem to be an easy decision.</p>
<p>I know, I know, the comparison is not perfect. I merely offer it to illustrate the point that, for whatever reasons, some folks do not make the economic cost-benefit analysis when it comes to college selection. Or, they do take this into account and are swayed by other factors. This is not meant as a criticism … I just find it interesting.</p>
<p>western, although I get your point the car comparison isn’t exactly a good one. Humans/inanimate objects. Too many intangibles that can’t be “measured” when it comes to human beings but, nevertheless, matter when quality is a factor. And what I deem as providing quality might not matter to others. Subjective.</p>
<p>My H uses cost/benefit analysis in his work so I understand where you’re coming from.</p>
<p>westerndad, when it comes to higher education, there is no such thing as objective benefit applying to all equally. Benefit is individualized and personalized. If I were an aspiring engineer, and my college acceptances included an expensive college with an excellent engineering dept. and promising avenues for future, well-paying jobs, the resulting benefit might be economical relative to the cost – as compared with or against a virtually free or cheap college with a lousy engineering dept.</p>
<p>But it doesn’t stop with job prospects or even the differences among similar academic departments. It includes a number of other factors contributing to the individual’s likely performance at the school. Many of those factors are qualitative and subjective (not available for “analysis”)</p>
<p>Some people perform poorly in small environments, in environments with extremes in temperature. Some people require a strong familiarity quotient in order to perform optimally; others thrive in & are energized by the unfamiliar. Many of us parents on PF have children in more than one type of institution and can affirm the different values to the individuals involved.</p>
<p>And to each, his own, epiphany. Again, I am not criticizing anyone here. I’m just interested in this from an economic perspective.</p>
<p>Let me pose a similar question. I have a friend whose daughter has been admitted to Columbia and Berkeley (in state). Columbia is the dream school for this girl; her heart is set on attending. However, for her to do so would require a huge amount of debt to be incurred, and my friend would end up jeopardizing her retirement.</p>
<p>By anyone’s definition, Berkeley is world-class. Does the marginal benefit (if any) of attending Columbia justify the additional cost?</p>
<p>westerndad- what I have observed over the last 5 yrs that in my real world the end choice is not the same as in the CC world.
My kids all attended or will attend Ca public high schools. Our high school population runs the entire range from the families who get free lunch and take the bus to the 16 yr old whose first car at 16 is a new Audi or Mom’s two yr old Range Rover. For most of the top students once a Berkeley or UCLA admission comes into the picture it becomes extremely rare for anyone to end up at the smaller LAC at 40,000 a yr. For many families they don’t feel wealthy but the cost of living here is high and they are not going to qualify for financial aid. The student might end up with a good merit award at a lesser ranked school but even those often put the cost at the same as attending UCLA or Berkeley. When the decision comes down to Whitman or Lewis and Clark or UCLA or Berkeley 9 times out of 10 the student will stay in Ca. Even if they feel they would prefer a smaller enviroment.</p>
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Even thinking of a college decision in strictly financial terms (which I think is a tremendous simplification) this agrument doesn’t really work for me. Families make expense decisions everyday yet somehow paying for a more expensive college is held out as some unique alternative choice set. College certainly can be a big one … I think your $100,000 increment over a state school is pretty good general estimate. But even then lots of life choices are in the park with that choice … which house to buy … which cars to buy … and which vacations to take. </p>
<p>The car choices I have made since my oldest was born have come close to paying the $100,000 difference from a state school to a private (buy a Civic with cash and drive it until it dies as opposed to stringing new SUVs on lease back-to-back) … spend about 5 minutes in a spreadsheet and total up the difference … it is a shockingly high number. My wife has made similar car choices. We are lucky that we can bank the incremental cash from these car choices but our willingness to drive cars way below average in town open the option for two of our kids to go to private schools if they want to … (at least it did as of about October and before our 529s tanked).</p>
<p>Similar choices exist when buying houses … and similar choices exist for things like vacations (one friend’s family sending their kids to UMass go to Disneyland for a week at least every other year … same spreadsheet excersize shows the vacations pretty much match one kids having the option to go to a private school).</p>
<p>For me roughly every $2500 I save allows me to retire a month earlier … the question on EVERY expense we occur is … is it worth pushing out my retirement for this expense. In the case of a car I am not willing to retire one day later to get a fancier car now … in the case of kids and college I am willing to work 40 more months if the private school would be a better fit for them (especially if that 40 months covers time I would be working anyways because of career choices).</p>
<p>I am not judging the choices but folks make expense choices every day … these choices show the family’s values (or at least patience and discipline) … and paying more for private colleges is a “non-essential” expense choice families can make (albeit an expensive one) like numerous other choices they make.</p>
<p>hmom - you of course realize that the UC colleges cannot be said to be at fault for the relatively low black attendance and graduation rates at their schools? The problem is the deficient level of academic preparation at the K-12 level for black students. This is a national phenomena. Universities, especially hyper competitive ones such as Berkeley and UCLA, are not in the business of engaging in remedial education, and nor should they be. In fact, they cannot be. </p>
<p>A lot is said about the quality of the public schools these kids attend, but nothing would be more helpful to improving the state of education in America among black students than drastically lowering the out of wedlock birth statistics and greatly altering the culture, where the anti-education meme hurts, as it always does, this most vulnerable group of our population. I see no other way forward other than to change the message from black leadership – why I am hopeful that Obama will bring forth a message of self-reliance and
accountability. </p>
<p>And no affirmative action program at Cal or UCLA will help ameliorate these problems - the number of students that truly can qualify for these schools (even with substantial race preferences) is a drop in the ocean and has no bearing on the thousands of minority students in California that are culturally attuned not to pursue education. We need to move beyond solutions that merely assuage white guilt and makes for nice appearances but avoids the tough questions. </p>
<p>Prop 209 is a step in the right direction for all schools but Cal and UCLA (what to with them - it is incredibly bothersome that Asians are in fact the subject of discrimination at these schools?). The students are better matched to schools they attend, and enrollment and graduation rates are up throughout the entire system. This is not an argumentative point, but reflects the common sense notion that people succeed when they are put in environments that permit them to develop their skills at a pace and intensity in which they can handle.</p>
<p>So much depends on what we value. Our “new” car is a 2000 van we bought new in 1999. The other two cars we own are a 1998 car we bought a few years ago, 2nd hand and have paid thousands in repair bills for and a 1992 used car that was gifted to us which we have also paid thousands in repair bills for. We do not value vehicles except as a means to get us from point A to point B safely.</p>
<p>Education to us is a different matter. Being around similarly motivated kids and at a school one is excited about attending that has a rich campus life the student really enjoys is something we’re willing to pay for. </p>
<p>We tried sending our kids to free public school for many years but realized that it was not working as hoped about the time S reached 6th grade & especially in middle school where he was penalized for asking questions teachers couldn’t answer. We invested in them by allowing them to apply for & sending them to private school – paying substantial tuitions where they did notice a significant difference in the culture of the school towards education and the joy of learning.</p>
<p>I know what it’s like to “thrive where planted” and our kids did try their best to do so. It is admittedly much easier to thrive in a more nurturing environment and we know we are fortunate to allow our kids to do so–we’re glad they are thriving where they have chosen. I do not find the car analogy similar–life would be much simpler if education decisions were like that.</p>
<p>When doing a cost-benefit analysis, one mustn’t neglect the benefits. I’m a Californian. We’re sending our son to an expensive private school, rather than having him stay in California and go to a public. For us, for him, this is a no brainer. He will be fine at a small LAC, but he would not thrive at a big public. He’d have trouble even graduating. It would be $100,000 down the drain to send him to a UC. (That being said, his merit money makes his private school cost the same as a UC. But even if it didn’t, he would be going private. He didn’t apply to any publics.)</p>
<p>My son is not every child. Many, many students love California state schools and get great educations there, but it’s not a simple matter of comparing sticker prices and going with the cheapest option.</p>
<p>Cardinal Fang- it would have also been a waste of money to send our son to a large public university. He is at a smaller private school. Even with merit aid it would have been less expensive for him to go to Cal Poly. But I attended Cal Poly and knew that he would have sunk big time. Many people don’t understand our decision.
But you and I are the minority in Ca. I would say by a huge margin where I live going to a state school is a given. Though I do know many students who are attending USC.</p>
<p>westerndad,</p>
<p>I think many people agree with you. As a matter of fact, I suspect California applicants to Tufts and Bowdoin have a geographic advantage-- not only because it’s far but because many parents agree with you. That said, there are many people who have been able to pay private school tuition for years and expect to send their children to a private college or university. And for families who have considerable need, those colleges may provide enough aid that it is not more expensive to attend them than a CA uni. So the answer may not be as clear-cut for families at the top and bottom of income.</p>
<p>But, really, your argument isn’t just about college. Why, after all, would someone pay $10k, $15k, 30K for a private day school or $45K for a boarding school since the family has a free public school at its disposal? These families have made a choice. Indeed, it could be argued that Berkeley isn’t the cheapest option either. A student could go to cc for 2 years first, then transfer to Berkeley. Or, even cheaper, dispense with the whole college classroom idea and get an online degree. At some point, we all make decisions about how to spend our $-- whether we have a lot, not much or are somewhere in the middle.</p>
<p>
According to the US Government, Blacks are 6.7% in California. Asians are about double that at 12.4% and White-non Hispanic is 42.7%. Surprising to some, the percentage of Blacks at UCLA relative to their demographics in California are not that different than some other similar high-end public universities that practice AA when considering the demographics in those states.</p>
<p>As most know, by law, the UCs don’t discrimate based on race for admissions (although some think there’s some ‘reading between the lines’ in apps). I happen to agree that they shouldn’t discrimate based on race since it’s not an attribute the applicant has any control over.</p>
<p>There are lots of aspects to diversity. When I wander the UCLA or UCSD campuses they seem very diverse to me since the students have so many backgrounds including race, country of origin, native language spoken, socio-economic group, part of California they’re from, and even people from other states and countries (but I realize the percentages). I think the ‘in-state’ percentages are misleading because it seems that a lot of these ‘in-state’ students are originally from places other than California.</p>
<p>2collegewego - coincidentally, a representative from Bowdoin was at a college night at our high school last month. Someone asked if students from far away have any advantage during the application process, and she said unequivally, no. That surprised me!</p>
<p>Also related to Bowdoin, a good friend of mine used to be a biology professor there. She said she would NEVER spend that much money to send her own kids there. She said she would send them to a decent undergrad school, and then spend the big bucks on an outstanding graduate school.</p>
<p>“According to the US Government, Blacks are 6.7% in California. Asians are about double that at 12.4% and White-non Hispanic is 42.7%. Surprising to some, the percentage of Blacks at UCLA relative to their demographics in California are not that different than some other similar high-end public universities that practice AA when considering the demographics in those states.”
Which reminded me a thread on CC not long ago:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-california-los-angeles/559457-la-times-ucla-accused-illegal-admissions-practices.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-california-los-angeles/559457-la-times-ucla-accused-illegal-admissions-practices.html</a></p>
<p>“Too many intangibles that can’t be “measured” when it comes to human beings but, nevertheless, matter when quality is a factor. And what I deem as providing quality might not matter to others. Subjective.”</p>
<p>pact, I think the point IS to measure things that are seemingly intangible. You only need your point of reference to give it a value. I see this decision as a great learning experience for our 18 year old. He may “feel” this way or that, but quantify it on paper. </p>
<p>westerndad, we’re so much on the same page that DS will start calling you Uncle westerndad, if that’s okay. DH has a 20ish point decision matrix that our son, he and I will fill out after the college visits. We’re lucky to have great options, but they have strikingly different pros and cons. We see no downside of totally fleshing them out.</p>
<p>“By anyone’s definition, Berkeley is world-class. Does the marginal benefit (if any) of attending Columbia justify the additional cost?”</p>
<p>You still don’t get it. (And no, I didn’t take your comment personally. You seem not to understand the direction of mine, however.)</p>
<p>Depends on the program and the opportunities being compared. One of my children sought a geographical & academic environment which supported the interests of her major course of study: hers happened to be an illustrious private (“top 3”). Another child had a similar approach, but since both her personality & interests vary from the sibling, her ultimate choice reflected those personal differences, which for her was a public of fine repute (but not Berkeley, because that would not fit in with her particular interests & talents).</p>
<p>And yet I’ve specifically recommended Berkeley to many particular students on CC, because of the very programs and environments those students have expressed interest in, versus other choices they had presented.</p>
<p>SoCalGal09,</p>
<p>I am honored to be considered Uncle Westerndad. I love your husband’s 20 point decision matrix! He and I are on the same wave length. My youngest son is just finishing his undergrad studies (at one of the two schools your son is considering), but my oldest son is trying to make a decision on a graduate program. While he has not developed a decision matrix, he has really been going through the pros and cons of schools, and he has certainly looked at things from an economic point of view.</p>
<p>That is not necessarily the best for everyone, though. Some folks like to be more subjective, and to each his own. </p>
<p>Furthermore, I think that it is entirely possible that one’s calculation could lead to a more expensive private school. As Epiphany noted, “Depends on the program and the opportunities being compared.” So I do think that it is possible, for instance, that a student could choose Columbia over Berkeley.</p>