Cost/Benefit Help: T-3 vs the rest

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>I am trying to help advise my DD who's currently applying to law school and will have some big decisions to make before long.</p>

<p>We did a good job of saving for her college degree but she cannot afford more than one or two semesters of law school. Remaining debt free is a high priority. She has some good scholarship possiblities at a few schools lower down the T-14 ladder (and beyond), but she's already been accepted at Harvard. </p>

<p>Here are my questions. Is Harvard as stingy as I've heard it is? Does Harvard offer grants to individuals/families and at what income level? Do people often turn down a Harvard or Yale admission to accept a merit scholarship at Duke, Vanderbilt, or a similar school? If you know someone who did this, were they happy about their decision in the end?</p>

<p>Thanks for the input.</p>

2

<p>First of all congrats to your daughter on her wonderful acceptance. I know no matter what decision your family ultimately makes, it will not be easy.</p>

<p>I know a couple of people who have turned down Harvard to accept the Darrow (full tuition plus a stipend) at Michigan, and the Hamilton at Columbia</p>

3

<p>HLS's fin aid policies are spelled out on its web site. I suggest you start there. Welcome</a> to Student Financial Services It uses Need</a> Access.org - Home. You have to input parental info as well. Your D should talk to the fin aid office and get the forms in ASAP. The earlier she knows what sort of package she will get, the better off she is. I don't think Harvard is "stingy," but it doesn't give merit aid. (I know someone who got more than $20,000 a year more in grants from Harvard than from Columbia. )</p>

<p>Personally, I think it is ABSURD to insist on remaining debt free and I think Harvard--or any top LS--won't be too sympathetic to any insistence on that. Remember that Harvard has a wonderful loan forgiveness program, so if your D decides to go into public service for a lower pay, she won't have to pay back a lot of the loan. It she takes a job paying $175,000+, she'll be able to do so. Moreover, if she doesn't take out any loans, she will be ineligible for some wonderful opportunities. Yep, some internships and stipend programs (especially for the summer after 1L year) are limited to those who have taken out loans! </p>

<p>If she has enough to get through a full year, we are talking about 4 semesters. She should be able to earn enough during summers to pay for at least 1 semester and possibly more. The debt load won't be overwhelming, to put it mildly. </p>

<p>Yes, people turn down YHS to go to UMichigan, Columbia, NYU, and Penn for free. However, most people in that situation do choose YHS. It's a personal decision.</p>

4

<p>I agree with Jonri that it is unrealistic to expect to graduate with from law school without debt. Even if your D should get admitted to a school where she gets full tuition, unless she is going to live at home with you, she must live somewhere and there will be an expense associated with the move.</p>

5

<p>These are helpful opinions. I did go to the HLS financial aid web site. I guess my questions really have more to do with the value of the Harvard degree. Is it worth it to go into debt for the Harvard diploma if there is a way to avoid any debt by going to a very good law school that may not be ranked in the top three or four?</p>

<p>Thanks for your input.</p>

6

<p>I'm hoping other parents who went through this will chime in and set me straight.</p>

<p>I'm thinking it is better for the student to take out loans in their name, as if they do get into a law school with a generous loan forgiveness program, it will only "reimburse" student and not the parents who may have taken out loans--
So with that in mind-we've already told my kid, she is taking loans out to the max, and if we can help her out financially, we can try to give her some money towards repaying her loans.</p>

<p>but to the OP. Congrats on d's acceptance to Harvard. Personally, I think $ from Columbia or NYU sounds mighty enticing- but I don't know how low down the "foodchain" I'd go. Vanderbilt instead of Harvard?? I'm not too sure about that.
wait till d gets her offers. It's a decision SHE has to make.<br>
but I'm sure most graduates from a T-7 law school will do just fine regardless if their JD came from Harvard-Columbia-NYU or Penn. And to be debt free with a law degree from Columbia or Penn sounds heavenly to me. Unfortunately that ain't in the cards for my kid.</p>

<p>parent- we posted at the same time. Does your d have any idea as to what she wants to do with her JD? Is it Biglaw or clerk for federal judge etc? That might help those in the know (not me) to give info as to whether the Harvard JD is worth the extra $. And you know your kid best- remember there are always some people who want to impress others with their HYS degree. Whereas most people will find a degree from Columbia pretty impressive too.</p>

7

<p>I think this is a really tough situation because you do need a crystal ball in order to really make the right decision. I can't imagine your daughter really knows at this point what she wants to do with her law degree. To be forced to work in biglaw in order to pay back loans can seem like indentured servitude. I talk to lawyers all the time who feel that way. There are locked into the salary because of debt. Personally, I'd go to a lesser school if it meant graduating debt free but, that option is not on the table yet, so see what offers are out there.</p>

8

<p>Cartera, the point you make about 'indentured servitude' is precisely what worries me. On the one hand, a degree from a top school gives a young person much more flexibility in terms of the kinds of positions they can compete for. On the other hand, having a lot of debt pretty much ties them into working for a big firm as a Jr Associate. </p>

<p>I think you are correct that we need to see what offers are actually on the table and go from there. Some of the scholarships require a site visit. Taking a point from Marny, I think I will advise D not to bother with a scholarship app that requires a lot of her time unless it is from a pretty highly ranked school and then hope for the best.</p>

<p>No, I don't think my D has very clearly defined career goals. Her uncle is a lawyer who's on his own. I know she doesn't want to do that.</p>

9

<p>parentstwo- I think scholarships are great. The question I have is that if the student or family plans to take out loans, might it be better for the loan to be in the kids name (not ours) as a student loan may be eligible for loan forgiveness and a loan under our name is not (at least I think that is what would happen).<br>
I'm sorta on the same wavelength as you re:indentured servitude. I would definitely want my kid to think long and hard before she passed up a major scholarship from a "comparable" school. But I guess everyone's interpretation of comparable school is different.
Good luck to your family.</p>

10

<p>LOAN FORGIVENESS: There is NO "indentured servitude" if you go to a top law school. You are an "indentured servant" if you pay sticker price to go to a law school which does NOT have a loan forgiveness program. </p>

<p>I haven't checked Harvard's #s in a while, but if used to be that there was a 10 year program, which did exclude clrekships. So, years 1-2 Young Lawyer takes bigfirm job and pays back loans. Hates biglaw and takes a job with a federal agency paying $60,00. Salary below about $45,000 will not be "taxed" to pay loan at all. Salary between $45,000 and $60,000 will be "taxed" on a sliding scale. If you make more than $83,000 or so, you have to pay the full amount. Below it, you don't. (I don't know current #s as they have a COLA.) The great part of the loan forgiveness program is that, as I understand it, each year is separate. So, if you take a public interest job for 4 years and part of your loan is "waived," even if you get a job paying $1 million a year in year 5, you don't have to pay anything for the previous 4 years during which your income was low. </p>

<p>Say Young Lawyer goes to Harvard and knows at end of 2 years that (s)he wants to do public interest. Commits to doing so for 5 years after graduation. If (s)he does this, there is no charge for 3rd year tuition. It is waived. </p>

<p>Where is the "indentured servitude" in this?!</p>

11

<p>To piggyback on Jonri's post should your D decide to do public service work (and another reason for your D to take out her own loans):</p>

<p>Under the College Cost Reduction and Access Act of 2007, if a you make 120 qualifying loan payments on a Federal Direct loan (including Federal Direct Consolidation loans) while working full-time for 10 years in public service employment, the unpaid balance on the loan is forgiven by the federal government.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.equaljusticeworks.org/files/ejw_ccraa.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.equaljusticeworks.org/files/ejw_ccraa.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

12

<p>thanks for the info. sybbie , I think your link confirmed my belief re: parent loans vs student taking out the loan. It specifically said "Parent Plus Loans" are not eligible for IBR.
So guess kiddo will be taking out qualifying loans in her name.<br>
this is all conjecture- as one never knows what could happen next year, but I'm still assuming she'll apply to LS next fall.
I'm also not ruling out that she may apply ED to a well targeted school if she is clearly happy with a particular school.
With an ED acceptance (we should be so lucky) she'll be applying for loans up to the max!!</p>

13

<p>I should mention that among the Hamilton winners I knew and met -- quite a few -- not a single one of them actually took the money. Every single one of them opted to pay, usually full-price, for HY or S instead of going to Columbia for free. I'm sure several kids take the Hamilton (otherwise why offer?) but I've never met one, and I knew a bunch of kids who had the option.</p>

14

<p>The income protection provisions of Harvard's financial aid give me a higher level of comfort about the prospect of debt, and I think Jonri's point is well made. </p>

<p>I find it interesting that Bluedevilmike, among others, can't think of anyone who accepted the full ride at Columbia and turned down HYS.</p>

<p>From the OP, thanks for all of the comments. This has been extremely helpful.</p>

15

<p>I know people who took the Darrow (full tuition + more money) at Michigan and turned down full-priced, higher-ranked schools. But I also know folks who were offered the Darrow and ended up paying full price at HYS. A lot of it came down to whether they thought they'd be happy living in a midwestern college town versus a coastal city for three years.</p>

<p>In my way of thinking (as crazy as it sounds), once you're comparing T14 law schools, the money isn't a huge deal. There's not a tremendous difference in your job opportunities coming out of HYS versus Michigan/Duke/Columbia (except maybe for law professorships). If you go into public interest at most T14 schools, you won't pay back loans anyway (there are restrictions to this, though). And if you join a big law firm, you'll be making $160,000 when you graduate and paying back the loans isn't a huge hardship--at worst, you downgrade your fancy vacations and car, or delay buying a house for a year or so. Going where you'll be happiest, and thus where you'll get the best grades, is--in my opinion--what matters most.</p>

16

<p>Something to consider with all of this talk about loan forgiveness programs is whether and to what extent it is possible that loans are forgiven. HLS's Low Income Protection Plan (LIPP) is particularly generous in that it is currently available at any time to any graduate when their income falls below certain threshholds, so long as they work for a "qualified employer", which includes small law firms. HLS's program works on a sliding scale. </p>

<p>Other law schools have more stringent rules. For example, at Columbia Law, the Loan Repayment Assistance Program (LRAP) only applies to those who work in the public interest or for the government, and your LRAP loans will only be forgiven in whole or in part to the extent that you continue to work in the public interest/for the government for at least three years. Only after you are employed with these qualifying employers for at least 5 years are your LRAP loans completely forgiven. </p>

<p>At Yale Law, the Career Options Assistance Program (COAP), participation is limited to graduates within 10 years of graduation, though, again, small, low-paying law firms are included with academia, public interest and government jobs in qualifying for participation. At Yale, your assets are also included in determining eligibility for participation. </p>

<p>At the University of Chicago Law School, the Hormel Public Interest Program (HPIP) grants graduates working in the public interest a grant of $10,000 per year, with that amount being forgiven one year after disbursement so long as that graduate is still working in the public interest. This program can continue for up to 7 years following graduation. </p>

<p>You can find information about other law schools on their websites. </p>

<p>Remember, too, that each of these T14 loan forgiveness programs (at least every one I've reviewed) will count a spouse's income against you in determining the amount of loans that will be forgiven. As you get older and move on with your life after graduation from law school, this could be a significant factor. </p>

<p>It is also possible that these loan forgiveness programs may result in income to the lawyer receiving the forgiveness. At least some of these law schools report the amount of forgiveness to students on an IRS form 1099 (miscellaneous income).</p>

17

<p>Sally--</p>

<p>Great information. Just a couple of additions. Yale's program doesn't require you to work as an attorney. If you decide you want to work as a journalist, for example, you still qualify for loan forgiveness. </p>

<p>Harvard waives TUITION for the third year for those who commit to 5 years of public service. So, if at that point you are willing to commit to public service, you don't pay tuition for the last year.</p>

18

<p>Good info, Sally! One addition-- my understanding is that Yale's program doesn't require you to work as an attorney at all. For example, you are eligible should you choose to work as a journalist.</p>

19

<p>I didn't know that about Yale's program, jonri, thank you.</p>

<p>My point is simply that with all of the talk about loan forgiveness as some kind of overriding solution for law school indebtedness, one has to be aware of the restrictions and realities of these programs. In addition, these programs change from year to year (though most law schools grandfather you in from the year you begin law school so that your expectations are met), so I would encourage anything thinking that they might be interested in this option eventually to look into the programs as they exist during the year when that person applies to law school.</p>

<p>In my personal experience, it has often been the case that people change goals, pursuits and career paths many times throughout their lives, particularly when they are young. Many of my friends and colleagues who entered law school certain that they were going to practice a particular type of law in a specific setting are doing something very different today, either because they choose to change or because life happened (marriage, children, cost of living, aging parents, illness, etc.). </p>

<p>No lawyer is guaranteed a job that pays $160,000 per year to start, and no lawyer is guaranteed a job at all. There are plenty of lawyers I know from tippy top law schools who are currently unemployed for a variety of reasons (mainly layoffs due to economic factors, wrong place, wrong time, etc.), who are the same people who had a dozen or more job offers while in law school. I also know lawyers who have been employed as public defenders and in the public interest who are also now losing their jobs as funding dries up and city and state budgets shrink. </p>

<p>Goals are wonderful things, but flexibility is important, too, and sometimes the road towards your goals is a hilly and winding one. Ultimately, one will need to do whatever one has to do to pay off their law school loans, which can be quite large, and one's path might be diverted simply because one has to make student loan payments. The financial aid/scholarships offered should absolutely be part of the consideration when one decides where to attend law school. That said, brand names in law schools carry a lot of weight (yes, perhaps too much) in many lawyers' careers. It's a balancing act, and each person considering law school needs to weigh the competing factors to choose where to attend law school. For most people, I believe that one's career opportunities will be mostly the same whether they attend Harvard Law, NYU Law or UVa Law. However, that is something that everyone must decide for themselves.</p>

20

<p>Sally - Thanks for sharing your thoughts. IMO- With today's economy and with little job security, costs of a legal education should be seriously considered when choosing a law school. </p>

<p>and OY! Once kid finds their partner-in-life, there may be multiple student loans that need to be repaid. Life is certainly not going to be easy for this next generation.</p>