Cost of Not Taking Most Rigorous Curriculum

<p>Hello CC folks. </p>

<p>While D1, a senior, is off filling out applications for the most competitive schools, I'm starting to think a little bit about D2, a freshman, who is also very smart. However, whereas D1 is truly drawn to the most challenging academics, D2 has a different balance of interests and wants to moderate the academics with athletics, drama and a social life. She also very much wants to have free time and doesn't seem inclined to compete in the college admissions arms race. </p>

<p>Our very competitive public high school offers an abundance of AP classes for grades 10-12. D2 is currently taking an all honors freshman load, one that many top students find hard. So far D2 finds it quite manageable and doesn't seem to break a sweat over it. </p>

<p>In 10th grade, the kids aiming for the top schools can start to take AP's. They can either replace Honors US History II (1865-present) with AP US History (all of it), or they can add a 7th class to take something like AP PhysicsB (all 9th grades take Physics), D1 did both. D2 does not seem to be motivated to take AP classes and from what I understand, assuming she does extremely well, she will be under some pressure from the school to at least take the AP US History. I think D2 would rather just maintain an honors level load and have time for other things that are important to her. She is a good kid and quite mature, and we're inclined to encourage her do what she wants. </p>

<p>My question: In the landscape of college admissions, how high up the food chain high can an unhooked kid go who excels in honors classes, does well on standardized tests, but takes no AP's before senior year even though they are offered. I understand that this would likely rule out most of the Ivys, and the most competitive LACs, which I think would penalize heavily compared to her competition for not taking the most rigorous curriculum. Does this strategy rule out schools like Tufts, Brandies or Wesleyan? We have to get re-educated on the landscape for a whole new kid.</p>

<p>I think this might be school specific. My S2 took AP World as a sophomore (same arrangement you seem to have for US History, he did the first half freshman year with no expectation that it was the first half of the AP course). He chose not to do AP Physics B which is now offered instead of Honors physics. He took 2 APs as a junior and is taking 3 APs as a senior. In our school that’s considered a reasonably rigorous schedule, though there are a handful of kids who do more. My son’s schedule was definitely okay for the schools you mentioned in our school provided your grades are in line. (My son with a B+ unweighted average in his academic courses considers Tufts a superreach, Brandeis a match and I believe Wesleyan is somewhere between the two.) I think waiting till senior year to take any APs would have been inadvisable. The trouble is course rigor is very much a matter of local context, you may be better off asking your guidance counselors. Personally I thinking waiting till senior year a bit risky. I think 1 or 2 APs as a junior for a bright kid isn’t too onerous.</p>

<p>Would she consider taking APs in her favorite subjects? Might not seem like so much work if she really likes the material. One of my kids found that taking Honors classes did not attract the intensely engaged kids, which usually meant he would not be as focused, which for him meant a B instead of an A in the AP class.</p>

<p>I definitely hear you about trying to avoid the arms race – my fingers-in-every-pot kid has had to make hard choices about what he reasonably he has time to do vs. IB and AP. There wasn’t a middle ground between the lack of challenge at the local HS vs. the program he’s in – which I think would have been a better deal for my S2.</p>

<p>This is completely dependent on your school. AP exams are not in and of themselves social-life-destroyers or major work issues. I have four APs this year and very little stress - I wish I could have taken more. But my school does not go far above or beyond the AP level.</p>

<p>In D2’s school, the only AP’s available that replace core classes are very hard. AP US in 10th and AP Euro and Bio in 11th are available. AP History classes have a 1.5-2 hr reading load per night, and AP Bio is the hardest class in the school by a lot. </p>

<p>When I went to high school, one of the finest public schools in the country, though I took AP Chem in 11th, few people took AP classes before senior year. We learned plenty. </p>

<p>My question is not whether she should take APs in 10th and 11th grade. She may choose to do so. </p>

<p>My question is what her landscape looks like if she can take them and chooses not to. I think it’s a fair question. </p>

<p>I appreciate any responses, but I’m hoping the discussion can stay on point.</p>

<p>My D graduated from high school in 2006, that was the year that we began to notice a change in the University of Georgia admissions pattern. They had stated for several years that rigor of curriculum would impact on their decisions, but this was the first year we saw it. Students with similar GPAs and test scores saw different admissions results. In every case, the student with more APs was admitted and the ones with fewer APs were rejected. This is from a acadmic magnet program where APs were plentiful.</p>

<p>Yes, I think colleges will see that she is not challenging herself and I think that it is important to schools like Tufts, Brandeis and Wesleyan. They want to see the most rigourous curriculum, as well as a balanced life.</p>

<p>As others have noted, it really is dependent on your school. If the majority of kids from your school who have been admitted to Wesleyan, Brandeis and Tufts have usually taken AP’s in 10th and 11th grade…than your daughter will likely be at a disadvantage for those schools. </p>

<p>Is there any chance there’s a guidance counselor at the school who could give you some insight on the course selection of kids from your D’s HS who have been admitted to those schools?</p>

<p>It’s important to remember that the HS guidance counselor will include his/her recommendation when sending out supplemental material from the HS (i.e.–HS transcript, teacher recommendations, and HS profile). The GC will rank the degree of difficulty of your daughter’s high school curriculum compared to other students. Speak with your GC regarding how your daughter’s future curriculum choices will fall on the school’s degree of difficulty scale. The college admission’s dept. will also receive your high school’s profile.
The profile will list the AP classes offered. They will take the number of AP classes offered and compare that to the number of AP classes that your daughter completes by the end of her junior year. It is the high school transcript through the end of junior year that will be used when reviewing college applications for acceptance or rejection.
The HS senior year grades are basically used to either finalize the acceptance decision or rescind an offer of acceptance.</p>

<ol>
<li>She may change her mind between now and April, when she has to sign up for 10th grade courses.</li>
<li>if she is not focused on getting into the most selective schools, she need not worry unduly about APs. </li>
<li> S1 did not begin taking APs until junior year but still got into several top LACs (of course that was 10 years ago, and things have probably changed since then).</li>
</ol>

<p>I get it. I really do. I’m not a CC newbie.</p>

<p>Suppose the GC ends up checking the box that says that the course load is of average difficulty, not very difficult, not most difficult. Colleges see all of the classes that she could have taken and didn’t. Though she has taken all honors classes (not the easier college prep classes, and not the much harder AP classes), and lot’s of other kids in her school took the most rigorous curriculum. She didn’t and she clearly loses out to kids with lower GPAs. She will likely take AP’s senior year, definitely Calculus, probably English, maybe French, maybe Econ. There are a lot of schools that are automatic rejections, I got that, let’s move on. Where CAN she go? Roughly where is the line? None of advice about just taking the AP’s actually answers my hypothetical question. The question is what does it cost her to go against conventional wisdom and do what she wants?</p>

<p>Let’s take a hypothetical student with 4.0 in all honors classes with no AP’s until senior year and say a 34 ACT or the SAT equivalent (I’m making this all up to get to the heart of the matter). Would this student get rejected from the University of Georgia? I just find that kind of hard to believe. </p>

<p>Must this hypothetical student go to community college? I don’t think so. I have no doubt UMASS Amherst would love such a kid. Wouldn’t Ohio State honors be an automatic admit. I think these are lower bounds. Would Rochester or NYU reject such a kid? Would Emory? Would excellent women’s LAC’s that take between 40 and 50 percent of their applicants reject her?</p>

<p>Where can such a hypothetical student go on the LAC food chain? on the National University food chain? Roughly where is the line? </p>

<p>In other words, what is the cost of this decision (ignoring whether you think it’s a poor one)?</p>

<p>The kids I have seen get into Wesleyan, Tufts, and Brandeis – with the exception of some very, very supportive legacies and some recruited athletes at Wes – have not been complete dissenters from the “most challenging curriculum” race. They may not have maxed out on APs or the local equivalent, but they clearly did enough to be counted among the academically ambitious set. I don’t know whether all of them had the “most challenging” box checked, but I would guess that most of them did. From what the OP describes, his D2 would be risking dropping two categories below that, and that could really take colleges like this out of the running.</p>

<p>As to where the line is – I think that with LACs, it begins to matter less at the less academically competitive end of the NESAC, like Trinity or Connecticut College (but maybe more for boys), assuming very good grades and decent test scores. Sarah Lawrence, Bard, Colby, Clark. Franklin & Marshall, Dickinson, Ursinus, Ithaca. National universities? Public universities. Maybe Boston University or NYU. Wake Forest? Miami. Elon.</p>

<p>Look at it from a different perspective. Does your child want to max out on the academics offered and gain as much from HS as possible academically? Instill in her the idea of gaining as much knowledge for herself, not for applications. Sophomore year would be a good year for her to stretch herself as much as she can- she may find, like many other top students, that she can handle both the top courses and the ECs. If it is too tough she can back off and get the top grades as a junior, showing improving grades, or back off on some of the ECs she may be using to fill her extra time. She may enjoy the challenge and find it not as difficult as she/you expected. </p>

<p>Does she limit herself/play it safe, or reach for the stars? There are no guarantees that she will get into the elite school even with the top credentials, but she will have gained the most she can from HS. It’s an approach to life she/you are establishing. Good luck with whatever path you choose.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Perhaps that’s not who she wants to be. What is the cost of that decision?</p>

<p>My guess, and it’s purely a guess is start around #40 on the LAC list and #50 for the National University list, given that your daughter would be taking a less demanding schedule than most top kids** in your school. **</p>

<p>Thanks JHS and mathmom. Now we’re rockin’ and rollin’, keep the guesses coming please. :-)</p>

<p>Seriously, I appreciate the discussion and please no offense intended to anyone. Also, what the cost actually is may or may not truly be a factor in D2’s outlook and decision making. I can’t live their lives for them, I can only gather and present the evidence. I really do try to listen to what they say though. For THIS kid, it may be just fine.</p>

<p>To be more specific, S1 did not take AP-Calc or any AP science, though they were all offered. He got into top LACs anyway.
I’m assuming that your D will take a few APs, just not all the available APs. Depending on how well she does on all her courses, I still think she could get into top 20 colleges.</p>

<p>Would all honors with a couple of APs junior and senior year really be considered “average”? At our local HS, it would be “more rigorous”, if not “most” – but a lot of that depends on the demographics of your D’s school and how many head to four-year colleges (and how many go to state schools vs. private). The reputation of your school also plays into this.</p>

<p>I think this is an excellent question to ask the GC, since there is no one established standard across schools for what gets counted as “most rigorous.”</p>

<p>With very strong test scores, productive and meaningful ECs (i.e., she has taken advantage of the lighter course load to really shine in this area) and strong grades (albeit not AP-heavy, even compared to her classmates), I think she would do well at women’s colleges, Rochester, Grinnell, Mac and the like. I wouldn’t say Tufts, Brandeis or Wesleyan are out of reach – she would just need to really make her case. </p>

<p>It sounds like she has no intention of slacking; she’s just trying to have time to puruse all of her interests.</p>

<p>Trying to be specific for the OP, here are some recent examples (last 2 years, including last yr’s admission cycle). Please note that these students graduated from elite private h.schools but none was Val, Sal, etc., and all were unhooked. </p>

<p>Student who took all Honors classes from freshman yr. (all that were offered), but not a single AP: got into Berkeley in-state, USC, but not UCLA.</p>

<p>Student who took almost no Honors and exactly one AP, and whose gpa was 3.4, got into Brandeis and I believe BU, and a number of mid-level LAC’s (forgot the names). She put enormous effort into her apps, was very specific about her academic focus in those apps.</p>

<p>Also, most students from the same two schools, and from a prestigious public, who had mega-AP’s with high grades & scores in those, were nevertheless rejected from MIT, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, but one of these did get into Berkeley Engineering and CMU despite those rejections.</p>

<p>(I know that the OP understand the dynamics of the latter; just reiterating that not only do scarce AP’s not prevent admission to excellent schools, the reverse is also true.)</p>

<p>I think you’ve gotten the answer from JHS. The only thing I have to add is that in my corner of the world, it’s kids who did everything (very decent but not highest test scores, excellent grades, numerous APs, e.c.s, etc. but no strong hook) who are rejected or waitlisted at the very top schools (HYP, MIT, etc.) that attend Tufts and Wesleyan. Brandeis I don’t know so well. There’s only so much room at the top and the overflow has to go somewhere. Within NESCAC, there is a difference - D was waitlisted last year at two top schools there, but “courted” at the other end - likely letter and merit money. It’s often said, and it’s true: admissions is a peculiar animal. Maybe schools like Hobart and William Smith, Fairfield, U Richmond, Sacred Heart, Marist would be the target area.</p>

<p>Another thought: if she wants to have a balanced life in HS, who’s to say she’s going to want a high-powered, living-on-the-afterburners life in college? Maybe those megasuperachiever colleges are not (and will not be) on her radar for a reason. OTOH, she can always decide to crank up the engines in college, wherever she is, and go full speed ahead. She certainly sounds like she has the goods to pursue whatever path she wants.</p>

<p>One thing S1 said in the process of his college search that struck home with me – why would I contort myself into something I’m not just to get into Brand Name College? </p>

<p>CRD, are you afraid your D is going to default into a less-challenging courseload, and you’d like her, if she makes that choice, for it to be a conscious, thought-out decision? Is she thinking about this issue now?</p>