Cost of Not Taking Most Rigorous Curriculum

Parents Forum
21

<p>CRD,</p>

<p>I know this thread is about your D, but can I butt in with a case of my S2? I hope another example may give us a richer set of data, so bear with me.</p>

<p>S2 is going to a NJ suburban HS in a prosperous/financial well off country. This school made a fine business of putting up one heck of a barrier for honor classes and APs. It goes like this:</p>

<p>(1) If you are not in honor’s math, you are not allowed in any honors science even if a course really does not depend much on math (S2’s weakness), like biology (S2’s strength)</p>

<p>(2) If you are not in honors class in a previous year, you are NOT even eligible to compete for AP class inclusion</p>

<p>(3) No AP’s until Junior year.</p>

<p>(4) Only less than 10% of the total student body is allowed in any AP that deals with core subject matters (such as English, Histroy, Math, and Science related APs). For non core related APs, they allow about 20% of the total student body. (I joke that it’s more competitive to get into the AP class in this school than getting into some colleges)</p>

<p>(5) Even among the sophomore honors kids who got an A in those course, a good number of them were not allowed in the junior AP course.</p>

<p>(6) because of the schedule conflict, the total number of APs kids can take during junior and senior year is about 9 if you do 4 years of math, english, history, science, and language.</p>

<hr>

<p>Because of this guntlet, S2, whose weakness is Math, could not take any honor or AP in math AND science subjects. For English and History, no problem. He is taking 3 APs during this year (junior), and he plans to take at least 2 in senior, and maybe 3 if he gives up the 4th year language.</p>

<p>He is getting As in all core subject courses except math (well, a B in a driver ed course and another B in one phy ed course during the freshman year)</p>

<p>He will be applying to USNWR top 40-80 National Universities type school. Given his profile and aspiration, is the limited number of AP (3 in jr year, 2-3 in sr year) going to be real problem for him??? Assume that his SAT will be 50-75% range of the college/university he is applying to. He has a terrific and very interesting EC portfolio.</p>

22

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<p>Add Michigan and Wisconsin to the list of public universities where she’d be a solid candidate. Michigan, which is a very popular destination around here, loves high grades, but is not fussy about the most rigorous curriculum, especially if coupled with the 34 ACT in your hypothetical.</p>

23

<p>I don’t think she would be seriously hurt at most state universities. Unhooked neighbor kid got into Penn State engineering at University Park last year with a 3.1 UW/3.5 W, 2 APs, a couple honors courses each year, no calculus and 27 ACT. Also got into Clemson, Ohio State, FSU and Pitt.</p>

<p>Does your school rank and are honors courses weighted?</p>

24

<p>We live in the midwest. Most kids at our high school do not take AP classes until Junior year. In some other schools in our state (those located by the major universities), pretty sure that kids do take as many AP classes as possible.</p>

<p>My friend’s daughter did not take any AP classes until Junior year. She probably ended up with 7 or so APs. She had lots of activities and leadership, was not National Merit, but did have a 35 ACT. She graduated 4th in her class.</p>

<p>She was accepted to both Yale and Princeton.</p>

25

<p>The cost of how much she does in HS is something you and she need to determine. It may be that she is performing at her optimal level by taking some, not all, of the most challenging courses. We don’t know her like you do and can’t answer the question of whether or not taking the most difficult courses will add stress or relieve boredom. Do not worry about her getting into any particular colleges, just help guide her in meeting her potential/being her best. Best is subjective- you have to determine what it is for your D, or actually, help her learn what it is. Sometimes one has to try things to know where that balance is- the old “nothing ventured, nothing gained” cliche. No matter what she does she could have done things differently, and no matter what she does she will get into a college that fits her- much more important than being at the most prestigious one. Good luck.</p>

26

<p>I agree with MathMom about the approximate rankings of LACs and Universities, but I think I would go up about 10 from each, i.e. top 30 LACs. I also agree with CountingDown that most publics should not be a problem. The problem with your post is that the importance of the rigor of class schedule will be different at every school. Without some idea of where she <em>might</em> want to go to school, its almost impossible to give any meaningful blanket answer (and nobody today can tell her what those choices will require in three years).</p>

<p>She simply needs to recognize that if she choses the less rigorous schedule, then she will have fewer options/choices when she is a senior. If she is okay with that, then so be it.</p>

27

<p>I think of AP courses as those “classic education classes”. But S2 didn’t take many APs (we hadn’t even heard about ‘rigorous curriculum’ until too late.) However, he particularly liked our HS’s business elective courses. He still got into a top nat’l university last year. There are many ways to show you’re talented and gifted. Schools care a lot about finding ‘your passion’. She’ll be okay.</p>

28

<p>One data point - My daughter’s high school friend told her he took no AP classes at all, his GPA is around 3.5ish(not 4.0) got into Penn State.</p>

29

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<p>No, I’m not worried, she’s a great kid and I want her to be whoever she wants to be. I think it takes a certain sense of confidence and maturity to seek balance in life at 14. She sometimes had trouble in middle school getting her assignments done on time. I have been intrigued at how well she seems to be adjusting to high school, how well she is managing her time, how seriously she’s taking her studies, how seriously she’s taking her athletics - she is in outstanding shape, and AFAIK how little she is influenced by peer pressure from friends to get into trouble and by sibling influence from her sister to embrace anything academic above and beyond what’s required. She’s also great at math but has shunned math team as boring. I told her it’s like Tim Wakefield saying that knuckleballs are boring. She loves Wakefield, but she didn’t bite. I have to respect the fact that she knows herself well enough to know that it’s not her passion. She’d rather bake cookies. She bakes damn good cookies. </p>

<p>Yes, I would like it to be a conscious, thought-out decision. I think life is better led with purposeful decisions. We all make decisions in life. Some are consequential. That’s perhaps the only lesson I can teach here. Frankly, I don’t think if she did go this road, it would be an awful decision. </p>

<p>Does she think about it now? Well her sister is applying to some pretty heavyweight schools, so the subject comes up at dinner sometimes. Relatives ask her where she wants to go to college. </p>

<p>I am thinking about it though, so why wait until she needs to for me to get educated. </p>

<p>Thanks for all the replies.</p>

30

<p>I’m one of six kids. All of us went to college. All of us got graduate degrees. Some, self included, even got several grad degrees. (One brother even got kicked out and ended up w/ two degrees.) My mom always tried to find something special about us…the doctor, the lawyer, the priest, the teacher, the banker, the social worker, the psychologist. When I had my own kids, I thought about what she did, I realized she tried not to compare us. It’s hard, but my kids are very different anyway.</p>

<p>She never got the priest.</p>

31

<p>CRD, I’ll add that while the rigor component is important to the T20 U’s, as mentioned, great grades, great test scores, and great sports (recruitable?) will go a long way. In fact, if she wants to play her sport in college (D3?), she’s hooked and all her other great stats will be gravy. It’s possible schools like Tufts and WashU, to name just two, will be attracted to her because her lack of APs, but overall great grades & scores may signal she’d be less likely admitted to ivy-class U’s. In the final analysis, these type schools do try to protect their yield.</p>

32

<p>hyonjilee, if your child is at a school where APs are limited, your child won’t be penalized for not having taken as many as students from other schools. You might be interested to hear that a few years ago MIT said that the average number of APs for accepted students was FIVE. The problem is that if everyone applying to top colleges from your high school starts taking APs before junior year and you haven’t, you look like a bit of a slacker. BTW I think taking an AP as a freshman is very unusual. My older son is the only one I know of at his high school that has ever done it.</p>

<p>I can’t even begin to guess how sports plays into the equation - that’s a foreign language to me!</p>

33

<p>And for contrast, everyone at S2’s IB program is required to take AP US Gov’t freshman year, and AP USH as a soph.</p>

<p>S1’s program did not allow any APs freshman year (though I know a few who self-studied AP CompSci AB to squeeze in the exam last spring before it disappeared).</p>

34

<p>OP - Its refreshing to see a child on here interested in balance. I would encourage her. Sure, by not taking the super rigorous all AP courseload she may (quote may) eliminate herself from the top 20-40 schools many on CC are enamored with - but there is a whole world of good colleges out there that would welcome her with open arms and where she could thrive and have a great experience.</p>

<p>Unfortunately for a lot of folks here, they are drawn into that admissions arms race. However, I can tell you from my experience at working at a top private PK-12 school, with 100% college placement, we encourage students to find the school that is the best fit for them. And while we do have way more than our fair share of top 20-40 placements, we also have a large number of schools not on that list and the kids who get in there are ecstatic because usually they are their first choice school.</p>

<p>So I would encourage your D2 to be well balanced and not get caught up in the “oh I must have 6 APs” or I am not getting in anywhere scenario. Trust me, she will do more than fine</p>

35

<p>One aspect not mentioned (pardon if I missed it) is; how does D’s GPA compare to other admission candidates? Does your HS weight grades? If so, how? Does not taking AP classes hurt a lot or only a little - GPA wise?</p>

<p>Also, it’s really only 10th and 11th grade results that matter (maybe 9th if they’re figured in to GPA but that’s set.) Perhaps suggest she step up her course load the next two years then relax a bit her senior year.</p>

36

<p>my $.02
My daughter although she had had an IEP ( special education) through middle school, took honors in 9th grade and took one or two APs every year in high school until senior year when she took three or four.
She is now attending a public university where she initially was under the impression was where the " slacker" kids go.
I tried to tell her * no honey, the slacker kids don’t go to college at all*, after a few weeks of her university, she is realizing- mom knows what she is talking about.</p>

<p>Your daughter will be fine, but I think APs are a good prep for the intensity of college classes and many of her friends will probably also be taking at least a couple if the school offers them.</p>

37

<p>This is a really interesting, legitimate question, but I find I really don’t have the knowledge base to give a good answer (notwithstanding my attempt above).</p>

<p>As I understand it, there are five choices a GC can make on the appropriate form to characterize a student’s curriculum relative to the average college-preparatory student at his high school: most demanding, very demanding, demanding, average, less demanding.</p>

<p>My impression, without solid data, is that for an unhooked student, anything other than “most demanding” is either fatal or near-fatal at the 20 or so most selective institutions, LACs or research universities. </p>

<p>At my kids’ school, there are probably about 15-20 kids in each class who get the “most demanding” box checked on the basis of APs or dual enrollment classes, and another 15 or so who got it checked on the basis of taking the full IB diploma program. Then there are probably another 30-40 kids who get “very demanding” characterizations, based on taking fewer of such courses, or not the full IB. I think the GCs look a little askance at kids who don’t take any math/science APs, and at kids who only take math/science APs. That group of maybe 70-80 kids much more than exhausts the population of kids from that school who get accepted at colleges that accept less than about half of their applicants, except maybe for a few athletes or others with special talents (top musicians). The “very demanding” group tends to include a number of URMs who do well in selective college admissions (but not HYPS or close to it, unless they are in the “most demanding” group). </p>

<p>At this school, a student who almost completely eschewed APs and IBs, and took only honors classes, would get the “demanding” box checked. A handful of them have gone to LACs without strong national brands (e.g., Lawrence), but most will go to public colleges, in-state and out-of-state. However, I don’t know that there is any large number of students in this category with top-shelf grades and test scores, because the school puts enormous pressure on any student like that to move up to the “very demanding” level by 11th or 12th grade, and as far as I can tell most do. So there is really no data set to address where strong students who opt out of the AP rat race can compete for college admissions.</p>

38

<p>Combining posts 34 and 36, there are some things I wanted to say yesterday but was too tired.</p>

<p>As parents, hopefully we want the best academic fit at any level of their education. That cannot always be predicted, btw. The OP’s D has already signaled that balance is something she values. She may remain that way, and if so, I personally would be directing her to colleges where she could continue to enjoy some degree of balance while remaining as intellectually challenged as she is healthfully capable of. Some people are late-bloomers, hitting their stride not until senior yr. of h.s. or even undergrad yrs.; some people, even later. (EK is right: most any U of decent quality is challenging; however, even then, some students with previously modest goals decide for professional school after a B.A. or a B.S. with no indication prior to that.)</p>

39

<p>I feel this AP arms-race is really unhealthy (speaking as the parent of one kid who took APs in 8th grade and one who had no APs in math and science but still got into some top 10 LACs). If the OP’s D is willing to take APs in junior and senior year, it is absolutely fine for the GC to check “most demanding” schedule. Adcoms know how much time and commitment sports demand. I’d feel differently if the D did not take any AP at all.</p>

40

<p>I also want to add to my earlier post it is OK, IMO to be a slacker kid if that means taking a year off before college ( as both my kids did), taking five years to get the BA, ( as my older child did), or deciding that a more technical education is more appropriate for the present.</p>

<p>If the possibility presents itself, it may be worthwhile to visit a few colleges more informally than it will be later- to get an idea of the academic intensity and to give her a better idea what route may interest her.</p>