<p>This is so interesting to me because the whole AP thing is alien in our neck of the woods (Canadian private school and required provincial curriculum). I can not even fathom how so many American students take so many APs. </p>
<p>Here, you likely can’t look at an AP course until 12th year since you have to complete the provincial track of courses first (most of which go to 12th grade), and the school won’t let you take courses off campus to get ahead since they are not as rigorous. </p>
<p>So take science. Everyone has to take “science 10” THEN if you get 90%, you can take honors in the subsequent years, particular year long science subjects (so honors physics 11 and 12, bio 11 and 12, chem 11 and 12). Only after honors 11 and 12 in a particular science can you consider the AP version. And if you are doing a science AP, unlikely you can also take enough courses to then take say AP English or Econ. </p>
<p>The school places well so I assume the counselors are right, that the number of AP courses one takes is not indicative of where their students place. I hope so since it seems so extremely limited. On the plus side, it’s a challenging curriculum for everyone, but without the same stress level.</p>
<p>JHS, that’s a really good point. I think that the pressure is there in her school also. It may become my job as her parent to advocate for her with the school to help her resist that pressure if that turns out to be the right decision for HER. It would be quite a turnaround from the advocacy I’ve had to do for D1, LOL. </p>
<p>It’s also not quite as bad as no APs since I think that she will definitely want to take APs senior year in subjects that she’s topped out in, like Calculus, French, English or Econ. I don’t think those are a quite the same increase in workload over an honors class as a AP History class or an AP Bio class is to their honors counterparts. (For either AP History it seems like a factor of 2, and for AP Bio it seems like a factor of 3 more work). She is currently being very effective in using her study hall to get homework done and resisting the urge to hang out and shoot the breeze with friends during that time. Replace that study hall with something like an AP Physics class, and I can see it really cutting into things she cares more about. However, senior year when she needs a science elective, I don’t know that something like that would be off the table as long as she still has that study hall. </p>
<p>Our school weights APs and honors equally but clearly colleges don’t. </p>
<p>I was initially thinking that I could get my question answered by looking at the Naviance plots and look at schools that seem to take everybody in that upper right hand corner, figuring that kids like I’m describing would get into those places. There are a few, but much less than I expected. Some schools seem like they waitlist a lot of bright kids in that category - yield protection? Who knows. Nonetheless, it doesn’t present a clear picture. </p>
<p>Your insight suggests that gathering this data would be very difficult. Interesting discussion though, thanks.</p>
<p>hyeonjlee
To be honest we have a similar policy at our local high school. Even the most aggressive student can manage no more than 7 to 10 AP courses by the time they graduate. It is not a bad policy and has little or no negative effect on outcomes. You do not need 20 APs to go to a top 20!!!</p>
<p>^ See this is what i mean. I am blown away that you view 7 to 10 as not very much? How can that be logistically? Students in our D’s school could at most gather 2-3.</p>
<p>I almost wonder if there are just two types of US highschools. The normal regular curriculum for the non-college bound, and AP for everyone else.</p>
<p>starbright, there are many, many flavors of U.S. high schools, but some of the common types include:</p>
<p>– Large high schools that are heavily “tracked”. There, students who are not college-bound, students who are college-bound but whose ambition is not to go to a highly selective college, and students who want to compete at the highest level may all wear the same sweatshirts and pass through the same door in the morning, but as a practical matter they attend separate schools with separate faculty.</p>
<p>– Magnet schools where there are no non-college-bound students, and ambitious studens are the norm.</p>
<p>– Magnet schools where there are few non-college-bound students, and few academically ambitious students.</p>
<p>– Schools where most of the students do not go to college, and most of the ones that do go to the nearest open-admission public university.</p>
<p>– Private schools where half or more of each class will go to highly selective colleges (and private schools where few if any graduates will go to highly selective colleges).</p>
<p>– Religious schools with a broad mix of students, and religious schools that are similar to secular private schools.</p>
<p>By the way, I am far from convinced that all Canadian schools are created equal. One of my nieces switched from an inner city Toronto high school to Forest Hill for her final semester (because FH would let her finish Grade 13 in one semester, and her original school only had year-long courses). She was floored by the difference in atmosphere, competitiveness, class quality, and student ambition. Forest Hill was a different world.</p>
<p>First, you have no idea of how much more competitive any school will be by the time your D2 goes to apply.</p>
<p>A school that may not care today that she didn’t take a rigorous curriculum may care 2 years from now. Schools are increasingly getting record applications.</p>
<p>Therefore, there is no way to answer your question in terms of the future.</p>
<p>You need to tell your D2 that she may be risking admittance to some “match” schools, if those schools become increasingly competitive. IF that is fine with her, then let it go. If she is willing to go to a “good” safety school (and you believe that she won’t later change her mind and want a top 30 school), then what’s the big deal?</p>
<p>There are different types of classes: remedial; college prep ( misnomer in our high school); honors and APs. The last two are populated by college-bound students; college prep by maybes.</p>
<p>My son is at a very competitive public high school with both IB and AP. The arms race is doing well here and we were suckered into participating it with S1. He started all honors in 9th grade, then all honors with 2 APs and one IB as a sophomore thinking he would do the full IB 11th and 12th. He realized that he was not going to manage this when he saw the amount of summer homework he was facing. We had to BEG the school to let him drop the full IB, switch to some AP (less homework) and take one regular course (history) with 6 additional AP/IB credits Junior year. The GC told us that this decision could knock him out of contention for a T-20! One lousy regular class with 5 AP or IB exams would show that he was “slacking”. Yes the class was very easy and he didn’t learn much beyond his AP Government class. However, it was an eyeopener to be with the non-stressed, non-ivy bound kids and I think he learned other skills in that class. He loved the IB/AP courses (great teachers) but was overwhelmed by assignments and earned more Bs than As…had mono and pneumonia …probably from all the all nighters during the year. Now, he is trying to get his applications together while taking another 6 IB AP classes (he begged to take one intensified science for a break). He is so tired already and has had several all nighters including the night before school began. All the IB students were up that night praying for a snow day (in September!). So…he has all 4-5 and 6-7 on the AP/IB exams (with zero studying) and will be a second semester sophomore if he goes to state U…As D1 starts 9th grade down the same path…I keep saying to her…if it is too much, if you don’t have time to enjoy life, slow down and pace yourself…high school, university and perhaps grad school means many years of hard work…don’t wear yourself down. If we all backed down a bit (especially the guidance counselors) we would have kids who know how to balance (that does not mean multitask!) academics, work, family and real life. That is a skill they really need to learn.</p>
<p>This is a very interesting thread…it does sound as if the OP’s D knows herself very well, and takes on plenty of challenges. My D is taking honors history as a sophomore-- it’s said to be a more difficult class than the AP at her school, but it won’t look like it on the transcript. The teacher is wonderful and I knew she would learn so much from him and probably enjoy history more all her life if she studied with him. If she ends up going to a less prestigious school because of that, so be it. I want her education to be vital and inspiring every year. (And having taught at a range of colleges, I don’t put great stock in prestige.)</p>
<p>This is completely anectdotal, but neither of my kids seemed to be harmed by taking a lot fewer AP’s than were offered. They each ended up taking about 4 AP tests, plus they both took mv calc off-campus as seniors. I have no idea what box their GC’s checked, but there were certainly kids that took a lot more honors/AP’s than they did, although taking more than about 6-8 AP’s is highly unusual at our hs (and is in fact discouraged). </p>
<p>Both kids are now at schools that are occasionally mentioned on CC using one initial. I think that what made the difference in their apps was that their honors/AP’s were almost entirely in subjects that were clearly important to them. They were both angular candidates, and their angularity was pronounced and consistent. Everything about their apps told the same story - essays, EC’s, summer activities, classes taken, etc., not because they planned it that way but because that’s who they are. I have to believe that there are still some top colleges out there that care more about a person’s character and passions than about some sort of AP scorecard. </p>
<p>The kid of my acquaintance who sounds most like your D2 (high test scores and UWGPA, a few AP’s, loves to bake, made her own prom dress) is now a freshman at Barnard. Other kids of her ilk ended up at Columbia (as a swimmer) and the UC’s, especially UCB and UCLA. The drama girls went to Northwestern. I really believe that your D2 will have lots of good choices no matter what path she follows, as long as she pursues her interests with energy, enthusiasm, and commitment.</p>
<p>samclare - I agree with you completely and that is exactly where I’m coming from. I believe that if you can’t learn to be happy in high school, when do you expect to learn how to be happy? Is it easier when you have work pressure and financial pressure? </p>
<p>D1 is happy in this kind of pressure cooker. At least I think she really is. She’s done very intense summer programs, all kinds of extra learning opportunities. I really don’t think D2 would enjoy doing HS at the pace D1 did. I am trying to get calibrated as to what it would mean for D2 to do HS at a pace that allows for sleeping every night. Even her current honors load has occasional unanticipated late nights, but they are much rarer than with the crushing AP load. </p>
<p>A lot of kids who have graduated their school have reported back that college is much easier than high school. Notably, that’s particularly true for kids who went to Harvard, but there are others. For me MIT was much much harder than my math/science NYC exam school. Fortunately, I learned to be happy in high school and I was able to carry that with me.</p>
<p>GC’s see a lot of kids every year, and it’s easier for them to put the kids into boxes - scholar, athlete, slacker, what-have-you. As parents it’s our job to know and support our kids as individuals with their own set of strengths, weaknesses, and desires. My D was sick a lot her junior year also. What with her demanding course schedule (even if not “most rigorous”), demanding and germy sport (wrestling), and demanding and germy boyfriend, she always seemed to have a cough or repiratory infection. She loved it though, even though she loved to complain. Stress is what motivates her - she needs the adrenaline rush to keep her going. My son is a completely different animal. He needs his sleep, and he needs time to himself to noodle around on his guitar or just relax. He would have been miserable with D’s schedule, even though he’s just as capable academically. If you have a kid that wants to swim in a direction opposite from the rest of the “school,” and she has well-thought-out reasons for doing so, you need to support her and trust that it will work out for her. As I’m sure it will.</p>
<p>As a Mom, CC overwhelms me. So many posts make me think my kids has no shot unless the student takes ALL the most vigorous classes. I’d MUCH rather my son experience life than only experience academics.</p>
<p>I’ve known many kids who have taken rigorous, but not most rigorous, curriculum available to them. Basically, they take APs in areas in which they have a talent–math/science or English/history, but don’t take all AP classes. These kids aren’t aiming for the super-selective schools, but I think that taking at least some APs in the junior and senior years helps with any application.</p>
<p>One thing I noticed among my dd’s friends: those students who took the most challenging curriculum were the same students applying to the most selective colleges. Those that wanted a less intense class load in high school were attracted to colleges that were less selective and where they thought they could probably function with the same academic intensity that served them well in high school. My totally unscientific impression was that students applied to schools which fit their style, and were able to get into those schools.</p>
<p>There are plenty of colleges whose profile shows that they have more students who were in the top 25% of their class than in the top 10%.</p>
<p>My son took 4 of the 6 or 8 AP courses his high school offered. They only had 1 honors course and he took that too. He was accepted at every school where he applied, including Pomona, Vassar, Carleton, Reed, Oberlin, Grinnell, Haverford–everywhere he wanted to go. I thought maybe he shoud do AP Bio if he wanted to maximize his chances. He absolutely refused because of the huge workload and his disinterest in the subject. I only pushed it a little because the AP Bio teacher was a master teacher in every sense of the word. My kid did take AP Calc from a much lesser teacher, not because he was more interested in Calc, but because the work was less and he thought he’d get the “most rigorous” designation, which he did. The important thing here is that he is at a best fit school, Grinnell, and is getting a great education in a highly comfortable social environment. Who could ask for more?</p>
<p>We’ve had similar concerns, for 11th son opted out of honors math, science & language. Still in honors English & History, & will take AP Calc AB as senior. The guidance counselor advised him that this was “tough enough” to get into the selective colleges from his school, so long as he was not representing as a math/science type.</p>
<p>This is all new to us, our other kids took all AP everything. The guidance counselor better be right.</p>
<p>I have to raise a bit of a complaint about the assumption made by so many that kids choose to take APs because they are caught up in an admissions “arms race.” My S chose to take 8 APs starting with one sophomore year–plus a few courses from the “AP English Strand” which probably brought his total up to 9 or 10–because he wanted to be in the most interesting classes with the brightest and most motivated fellow students so that school would be as interesting as possible. He was motivated by a desire for learning.</p>
<p>As far as I could see, he had no problem keeping up with these courses while being a 3-season athlete and pursuing a demanding music EC in several different venues. I have no idea what the relative difficulty of the courses was, compared to other schools, but get took 8 AP exams and got six 5s, a 4, and a 3.(Really the only difficulty was posed by the unwillingness of our HS soccer program to enable kids to pursue any other interests: extremely punitive absence policies forced kids to schedule doctor’s appts during the school day, for example. He switched to a different fall sport after sophomore year.)</p>
<p>In regards to the OP’s daughter, my advice to my kid was to do what would keep his options open. Opting out of APs before even trying them will close doors for her. Someone gave what I thought was excellent advice earlier in the thread: take some of the available APs and see how it goes. If it is too much, then adjust the load. While I think balance is a great goal, you say that she is now taking the maximum load for her year and having no problem with it. Why, then, should she be afraid that next year it would be too much? If she were struggling, it would be another matter. But apparently she isn’t. Like my S and the soccer program, if she gives it a fair shot and finds out that it doesn’t work for her, then by all means make a change.</p>
<p>A regards schools, I think JHS has it right.</p>
<p>As someone who posted about the AP arms race I want to clarify that some students do take APs because they want to be able to learn a subject matter at the most advanced level available in their school. But this is not about them. This is about impressing adcoms at the most selective schools, and the argument that is being advanced is that if a student fails to take the most rigorous curriculum (the most possible number of APs) that student is doomed to going to a lesser school. It has nothing to do with interest and love of learning and all about competing with other students. If that is not a description of an AP arms race, I don’t know what is.</p>