<p>Re post 59:</p>
<p>I said pretty much the same thing earlier. It’s early days to decide whether she will or won’t want to take APs. Course selection does not happen until April.</p>
<p>I know that OP is interested in a hypothetical “chance me” (or my kid)…but…I still contend it depends on the high school. At our high achieving suburban HS, with lots of applicants to top LAC’s and Ivy’s, all of the kids who are admitted to the Ivy’s and the top 20 LAC’s have taken AP’s, and done well in them. There are just too many who do, so there’s no need for the top level of LAC’s to take a kid from our school who hasn’t taken at least 3 AP’s in a major subject (English, Euro or USH, Gov, Language, Math, Science) by senior year…with at least 3-5 on the schedule for senior year. </p>
<p>A kid from our school with no AP’s before Senior year…and only a couple in senior year…with good grades and test scores with with no special hook would, at best, be waitlisted at Tufts and Wesleyan. Might get into Brandeis…especially if they could pay full frieight. Hooks would be athlete who would play on a team…even DIII, development admit, all-state chorus/orchestra/band (if it’s a voice/instrument they need), academic skew with substantial achievement/advance courses in the skew, etc.</p>
<p>At another school with few AP’s, or in an under-represented geographic area - a candidate with high test scores, dedicated EC’s, great grades and class rank, who hasn’t taken AP’s until their senior year (or at all), could be very desirable to the Northeast LACs.</p>
<p>2boysinma, I think we live in very similar districts, and I understand why a kid with no APs until senior year would be at a competitive disadvantage to their schoolmates. There are higher expectations on suburban kids because of the competition. My nephew in an urban district only had 2 APs available to him but has less competition. </p>
<p>Consolation, I don’t agree with just “trying” an AP. It’s not really practical with a History AP. First of all there is a brutal summer homework load on top of the regular summer homework in the other classes. Secondly, for the first quarter, while the AP class if off fighting the French and Indian War, the Honors class is rebuilding after the civil war and assassinating Garfield. You really can’t switch in the middle. This is not like soccer where you can just quit. D1 was extremely excited for each and every one of her APs, and she had 5 5’s before senior year, and will take 5 more exams after senior year. </p>
<p>An AP class is a serious commitment. I don’t think a kid should be pushed to take an AP against their will. I agree with Marite’s perspective of an arms race. As a math/science kid, you couldn’t drag me into an AP History class. I think people should take APs because they want to take them like D1 did. </p>
<p>Marite, I think the admissions landscape is different in an urban district like yours. In many aspects, I’ve seen wealthy kids get treated as being disadvantaged just because of where they live. There is also less competition. </p>
<p>I also agree with 50isthenew40, that my hypothetical student might be happy at a 30ish LAC or a 40ish National. I also know that there is no reason that the city kid and suburban kid who actually have the same preparation despite the suburban kid having more opportunities, couldn’t do the same work at the more selective institution. In a way, D2 for the person that she is, may be actually disadvantaged for living in the district that we live in with so much competition. I don’t begrudge it, but I can certainly acknowledge it. No, if she works to get good grades in honors classes, then I don’t think that she is a slacker in any sense. If this is what she wants, the chips will fall the way they fall. I think I have a better understanding of where that is.</p>
<p>crd:
How much of a time commitment an AP course is over a non-AP one depends a great deal on the teacher and the student. My S had two different AP teachers for APUSH. The teachers’ approach to teaching the subject was quite different. One constantly gave mock AP quizzes, but did not stress the importance of the DBQ; the other emphasized an “explication de texte” approach that would work well with the DBQ but not necessarily other parts of the test. One was interested in social and cultural history while the textbook emphasized political history. The workload differed as well.
And then there were my two kids, as different in their academic interests as chalk and cheese. One was weak in math and science and excelled in social studies; the other lived and breathed math. How much time they spent on that course reflected both the teachers’ requirements and their own predilections. </p>
<p>If a student opts not to take any AP in a school that offers many, that will definitely have an effect on where the student can get admitted. If the same student, however, takes 2 APs in junior year and 2 in senior year, I do not believe the student will be at a disadvantage provided that other parts of the application are very strong. At our school, it is usual for high achieving students to take APUSH and AP-American Literature in the junior year and to take AP-Calc (AB or BC) together with AP-Physics in the senior year. Such a set of courses should make the student competitive at most schools outside HYPSMC. As I mentioned S1 did not take a single math/science AP but got into a fairly impressive set of schools.</p>
<p>Is it possible that the HS are also competing for US News rankings? My son is pressured to take every IB and AP class possible. He had 3 in 10th grade, 5! in 11th and is now taking another 5! 3 this year are IB HL classes (he will get a bilingual diploma because one is Spanish for native speakers). He is also encouraged to take both IB/AP exams in some classes …ostensibly to max his credit opportunities in college so he got a 4 on AB calc and a 6 on the IB exam. BUT remember that the for the HS rankings USNWR takes the n umber of IB/AP tests and divide by graduating seniors to get one of the stats for the HS rankings. Also, passing rate matters. So…while my son is exhausted and getting more Bs than As he can be counted on to pull a high score on the tests…I wonder if the pressure from the GC is coming, in part, from this goal to have as many kids take APs as possible and she probably thinks it is a help to him to get lots of college credit. They don’t factor in burn out for some of these kids. When he takes AP/IB exams as a sophmore or junior they get counted in the total and divided by the number of seniors…what a scam. So our school averages over 3 aps/ibs per graduate…that’s because the sophs and juniors and even some freshmen are taking tests. We still have the masses of regular kids and immigrant kids who never take a single AP but we are in the top 50 HS in the country. I think it is appalling!</p>
<p>My neighbor’s kid studied a lot in HS, got the grades and got into the univ. she wanted, studied hard there, graduated and said “I’m done”. This kid had grad school written on her forehead, but to date has not gone because she felt burned out. It’s a shame.</p>
<p>If the OP’s kid wants free time, when better to allow that than in HS?</p>
<p>I like structure myself- but both my daughters took a year off after high school- both to get a year away from academics- my oldest volunteered for a year with Americorps, worked with high need elementary school kids ( homeless) and inner city youth- very different from her private school background and I think it gave her a different perspective.
Her sister attended an inner city high school with a larger population than her sisters, but she wanted even more diversity & she has traveled to volunteer in Africa, Europe & the Indian sub continent, and she is barely 19 ( now a freshman in college)
By completely limiting your classes in high school to what you need to graduate and nothing more- I feel you limit your choices for afterwards without an intermediary stop at a community college ( which is fine if you are aware of the consquences of your decision), to prepare yourself.</p>
<p>Samclare, I hear ya. The arms race at S’s school is less about racking up sheer quantity and more about trying to maximize college credits/placement wherever he lands. Hence, with Econ as a SL sixth subject and Spanish SL, S2 took the three corresponding APs. Etc., etc.</p>
<p>We also live in a suburban district (think The Overachievers; my kids didn’t go there, but that is the mentality here) where there are so many highly educated and overachieving parents and students that it gets a little crazed. Colleges expect a lot from the kids in this area because they know many of them have opportunities not available in other parts of the country. And while I wouldn’t trade the opportunties, they come with a price.</p>
<p>S1 never found the AP courses to be an onerous amount of work. He only took the ones he liked; so while he’s my math/CS guy, he also took AP World, Eng Lang, Comp Gov’t and US Gov’t – but not Chem or Bio. S2 said a lot of kids found the readings in AP USH overwhelming, but he eats that stuff for breakfast. AP/HL Bio is kicking his butt, but did not feel that way about AB Calc or AP Environmental.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’m not suggesting that she try it for a few weeks, I’m suggesting–as someone else did–that she try it for a year, and if it doesn’t work for her decrease her load junior year.</p>
<p>The fact is that if she is not the type of student who eagerly embraces APs in many subjects, then she probably isn’t suited to the type of college where they look for that type of kid. </p>
<p>The question is, will she be <em>overly</em> dinged for it because of the competitive landscape of her school, and end up with options that do not satisfy her intellectually. It sounds as if the answer may be yes. </p>
<p>There are those who persist in believing that sufficient intellectual challenge can be easily found for anyone everywhere. Penty of people on CC and elsewhere told me that my highly intellectual kid, who cruised to 2300+ SATs with no prep and chose to read Kant and Tolstoi in 7th or 8th grade would be PERFECTLY happy and intellectually satisfied at small midwestern LACs where most of the kids were hitting 550+ per section on the SAT and may or may not have taken any APs in high school. They say that it is “elitist” and smacks of a sense of “entitlement” if you think that your kid needs more intellectual stimulation. I’d suggest that only you and she can make this determination. </p>
<p>I would worry about whether she is afraid of competing with her older sister, and losing. I’m quite sure that YOU would never make such a comparison to her. But don’t underestimate the possibility that in her heart of hearts she does.</p>
<p>There’s also a lot of room between taking ALL available APs and taking none. Taking some in areas that interest her will help keep those doors open.</p>
<p>AP and honors classes were appropriate and stimulating for my oldest. We weren’t sure if that path was right for our second, who while just as bright, seemed to need more down time and social interaction–both of which are tough to come by when taking AP’s at our high school. The summer homework alone is so daunting! However, we found that the quality of the next level down, the “academic” classes, was pretty poor. So D decided to pursue the AP and honors track anyway but not go crazy. Her GPA has suffered some, but we felt that was preferable to wasting her time. </p>
<p>The OP should find out exactly what the alternative will be like, and plan accordingly.</p>
<p>At my kids’ school, in areas where AP courses were offered, the gap between the AP courses and the non-AP courses was more a chasm. Apart from some hors de categorie electives taught by fabulous teachers (Biochemistry, International Conflicts, Astrophysics), non-AP, non-honors courses in 10th-12th grades were generally a waste of time (other than a parallel IB program), and there were no courses where both AP and honors were offered for the same course. We didn’t push our first child into AP courses, for all the reasons given by others here, but her experience taught her brother to make certain that he had an AP-laden curriculum.</p>
<p>It is very important to find out what the alternative is to APs. S1 really learned to write in Honors social studies in 9th and 10th grade. The AP classes in English and History were too geared to the test to really focus on doing research and sustaining an argument over several pages.
S2 found a senior English class (non-AP) both challenging and enjoyable.
But there were plenty of non-Ap classes whose level was very low and was taken by students uninterested in learning and therefore quite disruptive. In fact, one of the aspects of the AP/non-AP distinction is the type of students each set of groups attracts and the classroom atmosphere.</p>
<p>Wow, after all this AP talk and associated decision making, I am, for the first time, feeling a little relief that we don’t have all the choices. Never thought that our limited options would ever have an upside. I think there’s only 5-6 AP classes offered in DS school, with no equivalent honors version available, so really there are no decisions to be made. Good students take AP and that’s it. Of course, the courses are not very good for the most part, but that’s another story. I heard of the 90 kids taking calc AB (no BC offered), about 30 actually take the AP test, and about 15 ‘pass’ meaning get 3 or above. The teacher was pretty proud of his track record.</p>
<p>S1 really felt the difference between AP/post-AP and honors courses. There was just not the same level of engagement as in the tougher courses. </p>
<p>CRD, if your D’s friends are currently also taking honors, what happens to the level of the peers in the honors class when her friends all start taking AP? It may not be the same kind of experience for her.</p>
<p>Post # 51 is revealing, Classic—. It sounds like your two D’s are different and you are aware of this. There has been a lot of discussion about getting into the best college. Right now your D needs to take the best classes for her to learn the most and still have a life. For D1 that may have meant all of the most rigorous offerings but for D2 it means something different. She will eventually get into a good college that fits her, that is what matters. For now relax and let her challenge herself without overdoing it. </p>
<p>Repeat- attend HS to get what you can out of it, in all aspects, NOT to get into a college. The best fit college will follow.</p>
<p>AP classes are important in many schools to give students a more rigorous class than their schools would otherwise offer. Having a national standard for course work means something for otherwise average schools, the AP exam grades tell colleges more than a string of A’s. The reason to choose an AP course is that it offers a better course than the alternative. Too many CC posters are unaware of the caliber of so many schools around the country. Remember only 1/4 of adults get a bachelor’s degree- if your HS has a much higher average that means there are places where less than 1/4 finish a 4 year college.</p>
<p>Classic-- your cookie baking D may end up as a chemistry major like I did. Messing around in the lab is as much fun as messing around in the kitchen. Good luck to you and yours as the years unfold.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>My guess on the workload of the AP courses in our school over honors
AP US (2x), mainly for sophomores in place of Honors US History II
AP Euro (2x), mainly for juniors in place of Honors World History II
AP Bio (3x), mainly for juniors in place of Honors Bio
AP CalcAB (1x), mainly seniors, occasional junior, D2 wouldn’t be ready
AP CalcBC(1.5x), mainly seniors, occasional junior, D2 wouldn’t be ready
AP PhysicsB (1.5x), mainly sophomores as 7th class and seniors as science elective
AP Chem (1.5x), mainly juniors as 7th class and seniors as science elective
AP Econ (1x), mix of juniors as 7th class and seniors as SS elective
AP EnglishLit (1x times the work, 1.5x times the difficulty), seniors only. </p>
<p>Basically, except for English, the above AP’s are designed to replicate a college course taught over a whole year where most students would be taking 4 courses. Teaching them over a year to a student taking 6 or 7 is very tough. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>It is true that the AP History classes tend to pull the humanities/social science superstars out of the honors classes leaving some of the math/science stars, and the AP Bio pulls out the science stars leaving the honors Bio class with some of the hum/ss stars. The overall academic superstars can rarely do both; even they struggle with both when one of the APs is AP Bio. D1 wisely knew in advance that she couldn’t do APUSH at the same time as AP Bio, AP LatinLit and AP CalcBC though she would have liked to. Her honors history class was not very satisfying after having taken AP Euro, but there were simply not enough hours in the day for her to attempt APUSH. (For D2, they’ve switched around the order of US and World history), so the corresponding AP’s are switched also. Still, as I mentioned, the workload increase over an honors class for the 3 classes that can replace a requirement is really substantial. Unlike the school that ihs76 is talking about, the expectation of the teachers is that everyone will get a 5. The classes are taught to make sure that happens. </p>
<p>I am also not of the opinion that taking an AP and only doing B (or worse) level work is worth the loss of sleep and loss of GPA unless you truly love the material. Future doctors and biologists love AP Bio even though it prepares them for the sleep deprivation of medical internship.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I disagree profusely here. Why is she any less suited than the kids whose high schools for whatever reason don’t offer the AP classes who end up with the same courses that she would get and end up with same SAT/ACT. They are held to lower expectations. She’s is a victim of the social policy that college admissions practices are trying to promote. I endorse these practices, so I can’t complain, but to make the leap that this means that D2 isn’t “suitable” for at least some of these colleges, I think, is inappropriate and incorrect. If she follows her heart, some very competitive schools with a workload no harder than she is currently facing will be unattainable only because of social policy and competition. So be it. I don’t think that 4 college courses at a place like Harvard or Brown necessarily have to be as hard as 6 or 7 high school classes when 2 of them are the AP’s like I described.</p>
<p>I agree with CRD. HS shouldn’t be some sort of endurance contest, with the survivors winning the prize of an Ivy education. Besides, I don’t see that my kids, with “only” 3-4 AP’s, are doing poorly in college. Well, it’s early days yet for the younger one, but the older one is certainly in the top half of her class and probably considerably higher than that. There are so many ways to challenge oneself besides strictly academics, and if a kid is focused on taking as many AP’s as humanly possible she may miss out on experiences that will allow her to grow in other ways.</p>
<p>My S is a HS sophomore, not taking any AP’s, and saying he doesn’t want to next year either. He’s a bright kid with not a lot of motivation, unfortunately. He says he wants to go to a 4-yr college, and he’s completing level 3 of his foreign language this yr, but he’s not the type of kid who is going to load up on AP’s or have a hugely rigorous curriculum. I figure he will finish HS with around about a 3.0 GPA.</p>
<p>So, where’s a kid with ~3.0 and no AP’s to go?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I used to go to one of these schools. There were really three tracks: regular, honors, and AP (but AP students took honors courses as well, just NEVER regular and always AP if it was offered). There were about twenty of us, in a class of 250, in the AP track. I knew them. There were probably another fifty who were slightly AP or mostly honors, and I knew about half of them. The other students? I never even saw them. Because of scheduling, even my gym and health classes were full of AP students - since we all took the same classes (only six or seven APs offered), we all had essentially the same schedule. But at my school, the AP students were lucky to get into College Park (in state). The last time we sent a student to a school someone on CC would recognize was in 2005. We sent a full-pay, double legacy to Rice. Our valedictorian usually goes to College Park or Salisbury.</p>