<p>I so agree, Marinmom…for some kids, lots of AP’s are just right, but for so many others, just as intelligent, life itself holds too much interest to allow for endless coursework. We parents seem to have done okay in life without the pressure our kids face now. My D will graduate with 4 APs, I expect, and also with hours and hours of high-level work in an EC she loves. She probably won’t go to HYP…but she will have learned lessons no high school can teach. She has a confidence that comes from having to think on her feet, not following a syllabus. I know some kids are very academically inclined, and some of them will grow up to make great discoveries,etc…and that’s wonderful. But why should every bright kid be pushed down that road?</p>
<p>BfloGal, there are over 3,000 4-year colleges in the US and most of them would be more than willing to take your solid “B” son and could care less if he took any AP classes. In fact, there are even some small colleges where he would be eligible for some merit money.</p>
<p>The problem is that, here on CC, one gets a very distorted view of college admissions. There is far too much fixation on the “elite” schools – those top 100 schools that are highly selective and reject many, many more applicants than they admit. Just remember to keep everything in perspective. A “B” means good, and that is a very long way from “F” (failure)! If he has a realistic list of schools when he applies, your son will be just fine.</p>
<p>BfloGal, the kind of kid you’re describing, if he were at my kids’ hs, would be applying to U Oregon, some of the more selective CSU’s (San Diego, Cal Poly Pomona, Sonoma, etc.), and LAC’s like USF, Loyolla Marymount, Chapman, U of San Diego. There are quite a few excellent LAC’s in Oregon and Washington as well.</p>
<p>Classicrockerdad - I posted earlier on the thread about the refreshing attitude of your D@ and letting her pursue the balance she strives for - as not everyone needs to strive for a top 20 college, but rather the best fit for them</p>
<p>One other thought with all the AP talk. Perhaps D2 should do what my D did and that is take the AP test in a subject she likes without taking the AP class. Assuming she does well on the test (like my daughter did), it would exhibit her knowledge of the subject and willingness to challenge herself</p>
<p>ClassicRockerDad -</p>
<p>Thought you’d be interested in this link from St. Mary’s College of Maryland, a public Honors college, which shows the number of AP’s taken for applied/admitted/enrolled students:
[St</a>. Mary’s College of Maryland - How to Apply - 2009 Class Profile](<a href=“http://www.smcm.edu/admissions/apply/apply_profile.html]St”>http://www.smcm.edu/admissions/apply/apply_profile.html)</p>
<p>I wish more colleges would publish this information.</p>
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<p>Which is precisely what I went on to say: is she going to be unfairly judged because she goes to a high-pressure high school? Is she going to have the chance she should have of getting into the kind of school she needs, intellectually?</p>
<p>Who knows? Certainly you are in a better position to judge. How did the kids who took her projected program of courses in your D1’s class fare in admissions?</p>
<p>And yeah, I’m sorry but a certain type of school is full of driven, hard-charging students and that is not going to be a school that wants someone who chose not to take a <em>reasonable</em> number of APs for her school, no matter how smart she is. It’s the truth. It doesn’t mean that she would not be fully capable of doing the work there. It’s a question of the TYPE of kid they are looking for.</p>
<p>I can assure you that I’ve had to accept the fact that some of those places didn’t want MY kid either, because he is not the driven kid who pushes for every point, despite his brains and his love of learning.</p>
<p>On the other hand, there are still plenty of excellent schools that DID want him, just as there will be schools that want your D. The question is, what does she need to do to keep her options open?</p>
<p>I have read all the posts above, and there are good points made by many people. To me, it sounds like the school the OPs D goes to is very intense in terms of kids taking 6-7 major courses, many AP’s etc. If this is the general population that will apply to the same schools as the OP’s D, then she would likely need something else other than courses taken to make her an attractive candidate above the others if her transcript is not on par because the courses are “less challenging”, for schools that go by things other than GPA and SAT.</p>
<p>I have to say that even though it is difficult not to be dragged into the whole prestige/elitism etc thing in the college rankings, I think it is extremely important not to do that. Even if someone’s goal is a competitive grad school, the education at many colleges will allow this - even those in the third tier - if the candidate meets the criteria. You don’t have to go to HYP to go to med school or law school or even to get a PhD. Also the issue of being with other students of similar intellect begins to be a red herring too. It is not HYP on the one end, and if you don’t get in you go to community college (unless you forgot to apply to a range of schools.) It is easy to fall in love with schools like HYPS, but these are not for everyone mainly because there are so few openings. Many super smart kids go to schools ranked well below the top 20. FWIW</p>
<p>So are these AP courses comparable across schools, and more importantly comparable to a freshman class? </p>
<p>I suppose the better question would be do all the students taking these AP courses write the exam and get a 4 or 5? And if not, is it just AP in name only, differentiating it from an otherwise not as challenging HS course? And does it really count the same way to colleges if one takes AP but doesn’t get the scores to suggest its equivalent to a college level course? </p>
<p>I’m curious and confused because I will see on cc how students will say they take say AP biology after just one course in biology or AP physics after a physics course. In contrast, at our D’s school, one would have 2 1/3 years of biology (grade 9 and 10), then two full years of biology (grade 11 and 12) AND THEN take the biology AP course. Now one could argue they teach lame-o biology in our particular Canadian province, but that doesn’t seem to be the case when looking at how students score on international tests or how they do at uni.</p>
<p>“I don’t think that 4 college courses at a place like Harvard or Brown necessarily have to be as hard as 6 or 7 high school classes when 2 of them are the AP’s like I described.”</p>
<p>I’m not sure about this. My son attends Brown. Kids in our HS have 7 classes (plus gym) per year. Kids applying to top schools take at least 6 academic subjects at once, typically 6-7 APs in total. Just trying to give some background here. My son took MORE than the typical top student. He took 9 APs in HS, earning mostly 5s on the AP exams. Senior year he took 6 APs at once. He also took 4 Physics classes at Columbia University senior year on weekends. So, I’d say he had a strong academic background when he entered college. He found that taking 4 classes at Brown was more demanding than he expected. Sure, having only 4 classes to concentrate on at once was nice, but he discovered that teacher expectations at college are much higher. Massive reading loads. Extensive analytical writing. My son said he never saw kids study so much… That’s not to say students don’t enjoy their free time. They certainly do. But your impression that it will be easier in college with just 4 classes may not be true at top schools.</p>
<p>If aiming for top academic schools, it’s better for your child to be as academically prepared as possible, for her sake, or she may be in over her head. But I also believe in balance. My son actually had lots of free time, never missed a Yankee game or his favorite TV shows, always went out on weekends and was active in several teams/clubs. He was NOT in contention for Val or Sal, nor did he want to be. He saw how stressed out those kids were, how all they did was schoolwork, etc. He wasn’t interested in being part of that race and that was fine with us. So, I do understand your daughter wanting a balance. In fact, I think that may be a bonus with some colleges. My youngest (a HS junior) is a 3 sport varsity athlete, who is currently taking AP USHist, APChem & AP Stats, along with 4 honors classes. With summer bball and soccer leagues and summer HS sports camps, she didn’t complete her summer homework (25 case studies) for her AP Psych class so in Sept, she decided to put that class off until next year. Now, in all truthfulness, she could have done that summer homework. Instead, she decided to read 8 books for fun and take a Spanish class at a local college because she felt like it (she takes French in HS). She decided what her priorities were and I was fine with her decision. In fact, last week I suggested she drop another AP class because the homework demands had been staggering. I know that during bball season, she only gets home at 9pm (soccer & track usually end around dinnertime). She resisted, saying it had just been a bad week. Third kid. I’ve learned to back off and let her decide. Like you, I believe in laying the info out there and then stepping back. </p>
<p>BTW, although my son took 9 difficult APs, kids taking 6, including some easier ones, probably had that same “most challenging curriculum” box checked off by the guidance counselor. My son didn’t expect to stand out. He simply wanted to take all the sci/math APs to help him decide on a possible major (he learned he didn’t want to do comp sci).</p>
<p>“The fact is that if she is not the type of student who eagerly embraces APs in many subjects, then she probably isn’t suited to the type of college where they look for that type of kid.”</p>
<p>I’m not sure what this poster meant, but possibly it means that kids who take lots of APs are doing so because they truly prefer to learn at that higher, accelerated pace. My oldest felt pushed. She did ok but preferred honors level so only took APs in subjects of interest. My middle one HATED slower classes where teachers had to repeat information and classes seemed to drag. Whereas I thought the schedule was too challenging, he liked the pace of the AP classes. Waiting to see how my third one views things. </p>
<p>Kids figure out what level is best for them. It certainly isn’t worth having daily anxiety and sleepless nights on a regular basis just to get the Guidance top rec. But the flip side. Some kids thrive in a challenging environment and get lost, or bored, when class isn’t stimulating enough.</p>
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<p>I’m glad someone said this; I was going to earlier. It’s a different trip in the upper echelon, in terms of the continuation of pressure. Just a rung or more below that, it can indeed by easier than a rigorous h.s. was.</p>
<p>At the top schools, in most cases your college classmates will be your high-achieving, highly capable, and highly ambitious equals. If one adds to that the grade deflation policies adopted at many schools (which are effectively both curves & quotas combined, with the bar already set very high), I would not call the top tier “easier” than h.s. by any means.</p>
<p>But it’s satisfying to know that some high schools are doing an excellent job at preparing or even over-preparing students to succeed at other demanding colleges & U’s. Much better than the under-preparation I see too much in my work with public schools.</p>
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<p>In general, they absolutely should be. Many AP courses are taught over a full year in HS, but only one semester in college; thus, they are compacted, faster and deeper. And those courses taught over a year in college (Chem, Calc, for example), have brutal curves, so earning an A takes a lot MORE studying. Think about it, taking Calc at a college where 25% of the student body scored an 800 on the SAT-M vs. HS where maybe one to two per class of 25 score that high. Or think about Frosh Chem where the premeds hold court – those kids that scored a 5 on the AP test Junior year (to get into Harvard or Brown) but are repeating the course for the “easy A”. Woe be unto those kids who do not have a strong Chem background in HS…</p>
<p>My S took Intro Bio instead of AP-Bio because of a scheduling conflict. He took the AP exam as well as the Intro Bio Final, more or less at the same time. The same textbook was used in both courses</p>
<p>AP-Bio started earlier by two weeks. It met four times a week for 2 hour seesions (8 hours). Intro Bio met twice a week for 1.5 hr (3 hours). Tis meant that AP Bio went a a much slower pace and involved a lot more teacher support (20 students in AP-Bio and 200 in Intro Bio). </p>
<p>That kind of difference in pace and support is pretty widespread.
My S did not find the workload to be lighter in college, but then he did not choose courses that were considered “guts.”</p>
<p>The consensus at S2’s IB program is that college is easier. They are SOOOO prepared, esp. in terms of organization, time management and study skills. There may be only four classes per semester, but the pace is fast, and there are so many other distractions and demands on time and energy.</p>
<p>S1’s AP Calc BC course soph year completed the BC curriculum in less than one semester. They just kept flying. 90% get 5s, average Math Level II score is in the high 700s. He placed directly into Analysis at Chicago as a first year and did very, very well. His school also does AP Stat (but calculus-based) and did AP Comp Sci AB as one semester courses, and covered far more than the AP curriculum. S1’s physics course senior year did Mech and E&M with a pre-requisite of MV Calc/DiffEq; half the class made USAPhO national semifinalist without doing ANY outside studying. </p>
<p>My kids expect (hope, pray) there will be really, really tough courses in college. What we found with S1 last year is that he was far better prepared than we imagined to tackle whatever was thrown at him – as long as he is engaged in the course itself.</p>
<p>How much time is spent on AP courses varies with the student. My gifted son took many AP courses and did well without spending that much time studying. Some others had to study a lot harder. He would have been completely bored if he had had to take regular US History as a sophomore. Hard to come by AP test statistics, our district posted pass rates, ie 3 and above. I see where he did not, and does not have, his nose to the grindstone- elite but not uber elite choices.</p>
<p>There are HS students who work very hard to succeed in the tough classes and those who have more aptitude for whom the AP courses are necessary to avoid boredom. This is where D2 needs to make choices at her comfort level. Some students achieve beyond expectations by much hard work- but is it worth the lifestyle? A few students will undertake all of the top academics in HS, do well in them plus have time for EC’s and sleep. We do not need to know D2’s academic aptitude, she and her parents do. She will get into a college that is a good fit for her- she will avoid those that won’t challenge her enough as well as those that demand too much of her time and energy, just as she chooses her HS courses.</p>
<p>I notice that the rigorousness varies for AP courses- the same AP scores of 5 can be obtained without as much work as some HS’s expect. Will the tough AP course students have learned more? Possibly. Son opted out of the AP biology test at the last minute, had regular biology, 5 other AP tests (some on past, not current courses) and found out a classmate said it was easy. Some schools opt to not teach AP biology because they want to cover other material and not just teach for that test.</p>
<p>Classic— I think you want the support from us that your D is making the right decision. Yes she is, whether she opts for a killer or a more manageable academic schedule. She is not choosing a slacker schedule but making a lifestyle choice. I see it in my own son- he consistently made choices that may put him in an elite, but not uber elite, category. The very top grad programs’ spots will go to those who work hardest plus have the most aptitude in his case. Your D may not make it into the extremely elite schools, but she will make it into the elite schools that appeal to her. She is already choosing her college by her choices now. The best college is the one that best fits a person, not the most prestigious. Relax and enjoy- take a breather before her senior year.</p>
<p>Addenda- crossposted with above. I also note the comment about being engaged in the course. I notice how son doesn’t get some A’s he is capable of simply because he doesn’t care to put forth the effort. Fortunately for him grad schools count your gpa in your major, not the overall gpa.</p>
<p>“My kids expect (hope, pray) there will be really, really tough courses in college.”</p>
<p>Countingdown, that’s one of the advantages of top colleges which allow undergrads to take grad level classes. Your kids definitely sound ready for that challenge.</p>
<p>jerzgrlmom, Yup. S1 took three of them freshman year.</p>
<p>Wis75, they really don’t care (that much) about courses outside the major? That would be a relief. S1, while kicking tail everywhere else, tuned out in a Core Bio course, got behind, didn’t complete labs, thought he could cram and come out OK. Uh, no. This happened more often than it should have in HS, only there, he’d get a B and it was not catastrophic. He has learned last year that he MUST be engaged and busy in life to do his best. He needs the adrenaline and engagement going on to work at his full ability.</p>
<p>I am crossing all body parts that he applies this lesson to German this year.</p>
<p>There are selective programs even at state schools that would not consider anybody who did not have the most rigorous classes available at their repective HSs. However, these programs are alos looking at balanced individuals, who are volunteering, having sport/art ECs and heavily participating at school in addition to most rigorous schedule. So, it all depends on kid’s goal. I have no idea about elite colleges at all.</p>
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<p>LOL, No actually. While I appreciate that support, I really do, I don’t need it because it’s not me that’s making the decision! 
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<p>I am fortunate to have a mature and lovely teenager who gets to make it. If anything, I am worried that she might be pressured to relent and decide to overload herself and be miserable out of fear that her future would be less than all it could be. Knowing that she has a really high IQ, but an even higher EQ, I don’t think that her future is limited at all. We all know “people” people who are just brilliant regardless of their education. Personally, I think that she should forgo the ridiculously hard APs, take the APs that she wants senior year and live with the consequences. But I can play devils advocate with her either way just to make sure it’s her that’s making the decision. </p>
<p>After several false starts, I thought I was finally pretty clear in post #10 that I was simply trying to “assess the cost of that decision” so that I can provide D2 the insight to make it well, and DW the insight to be assured that neither decision if made thoughtfully could be wrong. </p>
<p>This has evolved into a pretty interesting and enjoyable discussion with everyone, and I’ve gotten a fair amount of insight and ideas from many of you. I’m grateful for everyone’s input, but really all I really set out to do was “assess the cost of the decision”. You’re all terrific!</p>
<p>This has been a fun thread, thanks for starting it. My sense is that the consequences of opting out of the AP rat race won’t be all that great at the end, in part because a kid who knows herself as well as D2 seems to won’t be all that interested in pursuing the “top” colleges just for prestige. It may mean a more comprehensive (and possibly geographically broader) college search than D1 needed to do. D2’s commitment to her non-academic interests may take her in directions that you never imagined. Fortunately for you, however, that won’t be for a while. You get to enjoy having this lovely girl around the house for another few years before she spreads her wings.</p>