Could somebody explain the American educational system to me?!

Applying to College
1

<p>I didn't know in which forum to put this, so feel free to move this thread if you think it doesn't belong here.</p>

<p>I'm an international student from Switzerland and I'm in the process of applying to some American universities. I thought I had it all figured out (actually, I just thought that your system is pretty similar to the European) until I stumbled across some rather peculiar facts that made me realize that, well, I don't get it AT ALL. Here are a few things:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>"classes" and "class ranks": Where I'm from, a class is... a class. A bunch of people who are about the same age and share the same teachers. A class usually consists of 20 to 30 students. But over at collegedata.com I see people who have a class rank of 1 out of 920. So I guess a "class" consists of all people in the same grade. But still, how freaking big are your high schools?! Or am I just not getting it?</p></li>
<li><p>Colleges, Bachelors and Masters: In Europe, you choose the major for your bachelor at the beginning. During the three years that lead to the degree, you only study for that particular major (and minors, if you chose them). So what's with all the "General Education" stuff you guys have? How can you guys enter college "undeclared"? Is it true that the studies for a particular major only last two years? And what do you do in those other two years? Again, I don't get it.
Also, in Europe, a master is usually nothing but a continuation of your bachelor studies (on a more advanced level, of course). However, I've seen quite a few people here talk about going to, say, law school after getting a bachelor degree in engineering. How is that possible? Can you switch majors when you go to grad school?</p></li>
<li><p>ECs. I know they are important in the admission process, but somehow I fail to see why. Why do colleges care so much about what what we do in our free time? And what exactly counts as an extracurricular activity? Everybody seems to have similar activities: playing in a school band, playing football/baseball/basketball/insert<em>your</em>favorite<em>sport</em>here in a club or volunteering at an hospital...</p></li>
</ul>

<p>You see, I'm cluessless. Therefore, I'd be really grateful if somebody could clarify things for me. Thanks in advance!</p>

2

<ol>
<li><p>920 people is indeed a large high school class. Private schools will have much much smaller classes. My public high school's graduating class is around 500 students.</p></li>
<li><p>In many cases, yes, you will spend your first year or two taking intro classes or general education classes before taking upper division courses in your major in the latter two years. This depends on the colleges though. Some colleges have a lot of gen ed requirements. Some don't have any. </p></li>
<li><p>There's a difference between grad school and professional school. For certain professional schools like med school and law school, it doesn't matter what was your major in college. Generally, phD's or masters (ie grad school) are continuations of the subject you got your bachelor's in.</p></li>
<li><p>American universities probably value EC's more than any other country. The reason is that universities want human beings as their students, not academic robots. GPA and SAT scores are still the most important factors in your application though.</p></li>
</ol>

3

<p>awelex,
Welcome. I'd be confused, too!</p>

<p>Some of our private high schools have fewer than 200 students in a 4-yr school. My older daughter's senior high school class consisted of 38 students. Other private high schools have closer to the enrollment of mid-size publics (approx. 1200+ students in the school, with 300+ of those seniors).</p>

<p>And publics can be quite large, starting at around 1200 students and going to 4000 students. (I'm sure some poster can top that statistic). Obviously that would be ~1000 seniors, so that 920 figure is perfectly believable.</p>

<p>Most 4-yr Universities and colleges do not require "declaring" (it's called) a major until upper division -- Year 3. The first 2 yrs at most U's consist of completing 3 things: (1) Those "general ed" requirements you wonder about; (2) prerequisites (if there's space in the schedule) for one's major; (3) experimenting with possible choices of major, by taking classes in those dep'ts. Colleges are not at all uniform in these general ed requirements. Some have a detailed & fairly inflexible core, even to the point of requiring particular classes. More typically, choices within "areas" are required. These are called "distribution requirements" or "breadth requirements." (A course in social science, a laboratory science course or several, options for quantitative courses serving the math area.) Obviously, there's overlap with one's major, so students won't be duplicating in those particular areas.</p>

<p>Regarding undergrad vs. grad school, all one needs to do is to make sure you fulfill the admission & entrance requirements for that graduate division or professional school. In some cases, that will be solved by prepartory undergrad courses such as "pre-med." But lots of people cannot anticipate what they will do professionally. And in any case, even if they are more or less continuing in the same field on the graduate level, they will need to meet the same requirements for admission as other students (standardized entrance testing -- LSAT or MCAT or GRE), teacher recommendations, etc. </p>

<p>For example, one might finish a computer science degree and then decide to apply for law school, with an interest in intellectual property law. Or get a degree in music and then go on to business school elsewhere with the hope of working in the music industry rather than performing. (Although a combined arts+business program can be preferable, because it would be more focused on that industry.)</p>

<p>And naturally for many students a Master's and Ph.D will indeed be a continuance of undergrad academics.</p>

<p>E.C.'s:
(1) Some of the college's interest in that pertains to filling ongoing activity needs on the college level (drama, debate, orchestra, dance, athletics, etc.)
(2) Much of it pertains to a different kind of excellence they like to see: self-motivation outside of prescribed requirements; a long, sustained drive to fulfill personal goals; and the positive academic carry-over from certain activities) The most selective colleges have found a correlation between extracurricular achievement and college & career success. It is these most selective colleges that like to admit students most likely to be successful in both college & careers.</p>

4

<p>On the EC's thing - American schools frequently emphasize campus life and collaboration between students. Also, for sports and other activities, they are usually run through the school rather than junior leagues. This, to me at least, adds to the experience of the school, and in terms of collaboration and socialization prepares you for your future. American colleges in general have quite a bit more focus on 'the experience' and 'well-roundedness' relative to other schools around the world. The virtue of this is debatable, but I absolutely love this system.</p>

5

<p>ECs, I think, have become so important in recent years because they have become pretty much the only way to differentiate between the bevies of students with amazing test scores and stellar grades who are all applying to top schools!</p>

6

<p>Wow, thanks for all the excellent answers! You guys really helped me. But I still have some questions:</p>

<p>I want to study film production (probably with a second major), which basically is the only reason why I want to study in America; you guys simply have the best film schools. If it wasn't for that I probably wouldn't bother to apply to an American university; as some of you might know, Switzerland has some pretty decent universities for "normal" or "usual" (e.g. law, business, natural sciences) majors.
To cut a long story short: let's say a university with a decent film program admits me, USC for example (hey, don't laugh, we all have dreams! ;). Does this mean that I'd study film production for only two years while I'd be stuck with Calculus, language studies and what have you (the term "general education" still seems a bit nebulous to me) for the other two years?</p>

7

<p>I think that would depend on the program that the school offers. Every school has a different style curriculum with regard to certain majors. Some schools have very little general requirements like calc and history to compliment a program like film. Other schools have many requirements like that. It all depends on the school. Just do some research into the different film programs offered by different schools and see what the total degree requirements are.</p>

8

<p>Not likely that you'd be stuck only with general ed for a full 2 yrs. (Check usc.edu for more details on their own requirements). My d goes to a U with some heavy distribution requirements, but she's managed to take a number of classes in her major, and others for pleasure, and she won't be a junior until fall.</p>

<p>Cal State Long Beach also has an excellent film dept. Florida State, I think, too. I see you opened a thread in the Arts Majors forum, too. </p>

<p>Alternatively, you can select a dedicated film school:</p>

<p>check out <a href="http://www.filmschoolconfidential.net%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.filmschoolconfidential.net&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Also, <a href="http://www.filmschools.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.filmschools.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

9

<p>However, I would like to slightly clarify something. ECs seem very heavily emphasized on CC, but in reality, only those schools with high numbers of applicants actually base part of their decision on what you do outside of school. For example, applying to your run-of-the-mill, average state university (just an example, nothing against state schools), you wouldn't need to have as impressive ECs as you wouldto get your foot in the door at HYPSM, CalTech, Columbia, etc.</p>

<p>And as for your gen ed question, it depends on the school. Some schools have a core curriculum, some don't. It all depends on what programs you apply to.</p>

10

<p>Post #9 is correct. It's especially the "Elites" (Ivies & similar private U's) for which extracurriculars can be a significant admission factor. It is not nearly as true for lower tier privates. For certain flagship publics such as UC Berkeley and UCLA, they can be tipping factors - depending on the level of achievement in those e.c.'s.</p>

<p>But for most publics & mid-level privates, e.c.'s are not a significant factor in admissions. They can be significant for merit aid <em>scholarships</em> to such colleges, though. (Such as leadership, community service, or achievement in performing arts.)</p>

<p>As you probably know already, portfolio work can be even more significant than anything else for arts schools or arts programs within colleges. In that case, an e.c. would help a student if that e.c. was a film production club providing opportunities to make student films! :)</p>

11

<p>Schools like Brown, Amherst, Hamilton, and a few others - you can take any course you want. For a vast many more, it will be distribution requirements, where you may be able to take more specified courses that relate to film or the like.</p>

12

<p>It isn't so much "you can take any course you want" as "you don't have to take certain courses". You need to fulfill major reqs, anything else is fair game. At Amherst you can't take consortium classes at the other colleges though if they aren't "liberal arts".</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
Does this mean that I'd study film production for only two years while I'd be stuck with Calculus, language studies and what have you (the term "general education" still seems a bit nebulous to me) for the other two years?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes and no. You would start with 1-2 film classes in the beginning, with the majority of courses in other subjects. By the 3rd year, most courses will be in the major, but people generally have at least 1 non-major class each term. So in the end, you probably take about 2 years worth of film and 2 years worth of non-film classes. For example, you would probably take some Calculus, science, humanity, social science, and whatever field you are interested in in addition to classes in the major. It is true that some schools don't have general education requirements, but they strongly stress taking classes in other subjects. Most of these schools are liberal-arts colleges (or strongly oriented that way, like Brown), so they don't really need to require a core to ensure the students do take classes in other subjects.</p>

<p>American schools emphasize liberal arts and sciences (meaning you should take classes in every field), some more so than others. Even preprofessional/professional programs (like film production) still have liberal-arts requirements. Generally, at least 1/2 of all courses are taken outside of a major. The liberal-arts requirements create better thinkers. All the areas of knowledge are connected, so knowing one area without the context for other areas of knowledge creates a limited person. Ideally, a college-educated person should be proficient in all areas of knowledge (art, humanities, social science, natural science, and preferably another language) with greater depth of knowledge in one area (the major).</p>

<p>Extracurriculars are just anything you do other than schoolwork. Do an extracurricular you like, not one someone else who got into a good school did.</p>