<p>@walknoneggshells I think you are after 2 different things. One is where your daughter will be happy. Every campus has a continuum of student personality types: from those who want to obtain as much as they can (contacts, internships, etc.) to those who want to give back as much as they can (volunteerism, etc.). No moral judgment here, there are fine people in both camps. Your daughter needs to spend time on several different campuses, do some overnights, and find a school with the balance that works best for her. In my experience what they wear or drive doesn’t enter into it nearly as much as how they treat one another.</p>
<p>Your other concern seems to be how to pay for it. If you look at that second ranking of LACs (say, from US News #35 through 75 or so), there are many schools–some in NY but many outside the northeast–that give a lot of merit aid to upper middle class students. These are institutions like Earlham, Sewanee, Rhodes, Beloit, Wooster, Denison, etc. My D (a solid student but not top of her class) has been accepted to 3 LACs so far; her merit aid awards have been quite generous, and in line with what the Net Price Calculators said that they would be.</p>
<p>As for prestige, I have a colleague who is on the admissions committee of a top medical school. They love applicants from these schools because they are fully aware of the personal attention that they have received for 4 years, and the hands-on research opportunities that exist at many LACs. Once your daughter has been admitted to a school that she likes and has her merit award in hand, then talk to them about your own personal situation. I imagine that many of these schools might be willing to work with you more than you might expect.</p>
<p>Last, I taught at SUNY Brockport and gave my students tons of personal attention. </p>
<p>It’s not really that hard when you’ve got an excellent student and an income that allows you to do daytrips to different schools that look good on paper. The first thing that doughnut hole families (too rich for meaningful FA, too poor to pay 60k+) need to do is figure out how much they can pay each year. If state schools are affordable for a family, then let’s figure a little higher - say 30k. That’s a lot of money and a lot of really great schools will fall into that price range after merit. </p>
<p>Then, find out which schools will possibly be affordable. For instance, if Bucknell is a favorite, but it maxes out at 20k in merit, its potential total price can only come down to 40k. Too high, off the list. Dickinson, same thing. Lafayette? That works, Lehigh and Ursinus? Those work too! All are similar in prestige to Bucknell. How about Villanova? It’s my observation that Bucknell and Villanova often compete for the exact same students. On the whole, Villanova is notoriously tight with big merit dollars but they are also known for giving excellent merit to girls majoring in engineering - so, if a female student is interested in engineering and likes the Bucknell vibe, V should definitely be added to the list of schools to visit.</p>
<p>Of course, we need to take a step down in prestige and look for schools with a sort of Bucknell-ish vibe that might be good safety options. There are still plenty of places available. (I personally would spend more time on this step than at the comparable Villanova/Lehigh schools). Scranton usually gives great money for good students. Same with Providence, Fairfield, and St. Joe’s. These schools know they are competing with state schools for students and will bring their costs down accordingly, particularly for students they’d like to have. These schools, and schools like them, while not particularly well known or prestigious, have strong alumni networks and have honors colleges full of top students - I know several NMSF’s who count these schools among their top choices. Furthermore, the top grads from these schools will have a lot more options than kids who graduated from the middle of their class at Bucknell. </p>
<p>How we parents approach college is a life lesson for our children. We can whine and stamp our feet that we’re not getting our share or we can take the bull by the horns and can help our kids find great, affordable fits. </p>
<p>@halfemptypockets ~ glad to see several of the schools D is applying to mentioned above. We are the epitome of “donut-hole”. But…D has great stats and will get merit aid at alot of schools. University of Scranton, St. Michaels, Simmons, PC come to mind. All good schools but no prestige. They also do not require ncp. </p>
Yes, I do realize that we get snow in NY, and I do realize that the private colleges get just as much snow as the public colleges. I’m just not a big fan of small towns in northern NY. It’s not a public vs private issue. It’s weather. It gets really cold in northern NY. My daughter might end up loving those places. I don’t. It’s personal preference.</p>
Yes, I never said that all classes are taught that way. I said that the intro classes at the large SUNY’s are taught that way. Psychology 101, Economics 101, Physics 101, Calculus 101. Calculus and Physics are particularly important for engineering and science majors. I think those classes had at least 100 - 150 students where I went, but they might have had 300 +. Psychology and Economics were definitely over 300.</p>
<p>Calc and Physics are critical courses. Those two courses determine the fate of many prospective engineering majors. I know several people who dropped out after those two courses. Having hundreds of students in those classes is ridiculous.</p>
<p>I agree with what you said about the buildings. I’ve been in some old buildings in NY, and they can be pretty depressing. You’re right, The insides of the buildings on the SUNY campuses I’ve been to have been pretty nice. It’s the campuses themselves, and the outsides of the buildings that are not so pretty. I agree that the insides are more important.</p>
<p>^^^
Many schools, even pricey privates, will have large lecture halls for the 1XX classes, and sometimes even for some 2XX classes. My kids were able to skip those large lecture hall classes by using AP credits or by taking the Honors College versions (which are typically a lot smaller on various college campuses). </p>
<p>Both of my kids were STEM majors (S1 Math major, S2 Chemical Eng’g), so I understand your concerns. </p>
<p>Your biggest obstacle is going to be getting ENOUGH merit if you can only contribute $10k per year or less (which sounds like the situation). Getting “nice merit awards” isn’t going to cut it for you. Pricey privates may throw a $15k per year merit or even $20k per year, but that will still leave you with a $35k-40k per year bill, which it sounds like you can’t even begin to pay. </p>
<p>Someone mentioned that Nova is cheap with merit, but does award to female eng’g students. Sure, but how much are their awards? $10k per year? $20k? That’s not nearly enough.</p>
<p>It sounds like you need at least a full tuition merit award so that your contribution and maybe a student loan from your child can cover room, board, fees and books. Maybe your child can also work/save a couple thousand from a summer job and contribute that as well to cover misc costs. </p>
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I agree with what you said about the buildings. I’ve been in some old buildings in NY, and they can be pretty depressing. You’re right, The insides of the buildings on the SUNY campuses I’ve been to have been pretty nice. It’s the campuses themselves, and the outsides of the buildings that are not so pretty. I agree that the insides are more important.</p>
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<p>I think it’s nice to have pretty on the outside as well as nice on the insides. There are some gorgeous campuses that give huge merit. My kids’ undergrad is frequently mentioned as one of the most beautiful campuses in the nation, and it also has state-of-the art “insides” once you’re in the buildings.</p>
<p>I went back and re-read all of @WalknOnEggShells posts in this thread bc I thought your post was what I originally remembered, but then he mentioned saving $20000+ by selecting a SUNY. So, I am confused.</p>
<p>OP, obviously your family needs to make their own decisions and if taking on $100,000-$250,000 worth of debt for 4 yrs of school is ok with you, there really isn’t any point in conversing. If, however, taking on that kind of debt is financially destructive (parent plus loans add the payment for each subsequent loan on top of the first yr loans, they don’t simply extend the loans), the conversation really needs to be a different one.</p>
<p>To sum up our experiences last yr with a top student who has a high EFC with parents who can’t afford it:</p>
<p>…our Ds applied to schools we knew we couldn’t afford unless he won one of the handful of full-ride scholarships. Our son is academically very strong and advanced, so he wanted to try BC you can’t receive them without applying. He did not receive the full-ride option at any of the higher ranked schools he applied to. In hindsight it is probably bc many of those scholarships are awarded to students with high-impact, community-altering service. Our ds had a lot of service, but not on that level. His academics, otoh, went far beyond the majority of applicants. He received the highest “general” merit awards (as in not those given to only 3 people) at plenty of upper-ranked schools, but as nice as those awards were, they still left us looking at $25,000-40,000/yr. </p>
<p>We refuse to take on that kind of debt. It is simply an unrealistic option for our family.</p>
<p>But, our older kids have managed to attend school at institutions which we have either been able to pay out of pocket or they have attended on scholarship. Our oldest ds is a chemE with a great career. He attended a small in-state technical university that no one outside of the region has ever even heard of. Even though the school is unknown by the general public, industry loves its grads. Our ds had excellent undergrad research opportunities, co-op job, and was recruited by companies prior to graduation. </p>
<p>Our ds who is a freshman is attending on full scholarship. He is part of a small research honors program (40 students accepted per yr), the school accepted all of his dual enrollment credits so he was able to start this semester with upper level classes and has the luxury of double or triple majoring bc he has so much of his major completed. Anyway, he is going to a HUGE school with 30,000+ undergrads but his classes only have 20-30 students. The honors program offers them tons of personalized attention. He has a great group of academic-oriented friends. He says he wouldn’t change places to attend any other school b/c he loves it there. When he started applying last fall, I didn’t really imagine him at UA b/c he is not into sports and he is such a strong student. But, the long and the short of it is that those images are stereotypes. He is still not a huge sports guy (though he does have fun watching football now) and he does have a huge group of top students as peers. UA pulled him in b/c of their generous merit awards and their unique honors program. </p>
<p>So, he is happy and thriving and our biggest financial worry about his education is how we file the taxes on scholarship $$. We could be stressed from trying to figue out how we were going to manage to pay next yr’s loan payments on top of this yr’s, and be crumbling under the pressure of contemplating 2 more yrs’ worth of loans added on after that. And oh, what about his 4 younger sisters? What about regular childhood life for them, their college experiences, etc??? (For us, that kind of stress is most definitely not worth it. We want to live life, not just fund college.)</p>
<p>It is way too easy to get sucked into the idea that only a handful of schools are good enough for our hard-working, high-achieving kids. But, unless you actually have the financial means to think that way, school selection needs to be approached in a different way and use a different list of criteria (which includes financial health/reality.) There really is a school out there that can meet pretty much every need except for “prestige.” Prestigious name is limited to those few thousand accepted and willing to pay.</p>
<p>Those neighbors sending their kids to “match” schools, they are probably thinking clearly about the big picture, including their own future financial security. Or maybe they realize that match schools will land their kids in the same place in the long run. (b/c most likely they will unless it is some career where “name” means everything. That just isn’t the reality for most undergrad degrees.)</p>
<p>Community colleges typically have smaller courses than big universities. So an option to get smaller class sizes is to do frosh/soph course work at a community college, then transfer to a four year school. But check course articulation to make sure that all of the needed courses are offered at the community colleges in your area.</p>
<p>Another option is a gap year, long popular in Europe and gaining popularity here. Many colleges will consider letting you defer starting for a year, once you are admitted. It could provide a student with the opportunity to work & save, and to pick up a few CC classes as well. </p>
<p>I think a problem here is that there is a perception that a ‘private’ college will give a much higher level of education ‘value’, you will be with a higher ‘class’ of students…</p>
<p>Many students from middle to upper middle class are sophisticated enough and have had such a great education through HS, that they can handle a larger public university that may actually offer them greater educational opportunities at a cost-effective and budget friendly level; honors colleges at some large universities for example.</p>
<p>If a student can obtain some four year ‘merit’ money, it may be a better option to attend that school rather than starting at CC.</p>
<p>We made financial sacrifices for private schooling through HS, but then both kids got great scholarships for college (in-state public schools, one is at medical center school studying nursing, and the other is at flagship with Presidential and engineering scholarships). We did have savings and a college plan paid for in addition to scholarships. It was a great relief when we paid our last HS tuition bill. </p>
<p>We have gone many, many years not driving new cars (first few years of marriage shared a car and worked different shifts for maximizing income). For the income earned, we have done well.</p>
<p>At some point, you have to decide that you “don’t have to keep up with the Jones’” and also look at ‘the new paradigm’ with cost of college and options.</p>
<p>Suze Orman warns that student loans is very dangerous debt, and I agree. However some do need to have it for UG, and most for professional schools (MD, law school, etc). </p>
<p>Have you looked at what other students/families have done - looking at kids similar to your s/d - got an idea of ‘the landscape’ - ideas your s/d have on where to go to school and what to study. You want your student to be successful - what does successful mean to your s/d and what does it mean to you? Do you want them to be self-sufficient after UG degree; are you willing for them to move back home after degree to help get them started? Do you expect to help them through graduate/professional school?</p>
<p>We have had a lot of communication, and the kids have learned how to handle money. Older dau is with many students who are having to be self-sufficient through UG and have very tight personal budgets. Younger dau has some around her that have a lot of money given to them by parents - monthly ‘allowances’…one is getting a 50" plasma for living room at dorm, and is on a family cruise (2nd this year). Certainly she knows others are on a budget, but there are many families who have money and/or spend lots of resources on their s/d. My two know that whatever money they have left in their account is theirs - for graduate school, or to spend on car, first apt, whatever. Highly motivated to keep scholarships, academically doing well. Love their school.</p>
<p>H and I were from middle class families when we started at private schools in home state - we both finished degrees in 4 years with degrees we planned to pursue. H had some student loans to finish. Neither of us were as sophisticated going to college - by HS preparation and parents’ abilities to guide in process.</p>
<p>Be careful about financial stress - it can take a huge toll on health and well-being.</p>
<p>Check the rules at the college for deferred matriculation. Taking any college course work after high school graduation may be disallowed for deferred matriculation purposes, and may disqualify the student from applying as frosh to many other colleges.</p>
<p>What I meant is that there are so many attributes that define a college that it’s not so easy to find a replacement for any college, whether you go up or down in prestige, or up or down or east or west geographically. My daughter might end up having a very different list, but the attributes I’m looking for are: low student to faculty ratio, within one day of driving from NY, strong STEM programs, and a somewhat balanced percentage of male and female students.</p>
<p>Using Bucknell as an example again. If we try to find a replacement for it, there aren’t that many options.There aren’t that many small LAC’s with engineering programs. Lafayette is one, but they don’t give merit aid to many students either, so it’s not any better of an option. The one other option I can think of is Union College, and it’s at the top of my list.</p>
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<p>That did sound like I was saying it would be easy, but trust me, it wouldn’t be. We have in excess of 100K in debt on top of a big mortgage. That eats up a lot of income. My hope is that we can somehow eliminate some of that debt by the time she starts college. If we can do that, then I should be able to afford 22K out of cash flow, but right now we’re living paycheck to paycheck, so saving anything is not realistic at all.</p>
<p>Thanks for the ideas for other schools. I’m going to check out College of Wooster, Case Western, and NCSU.</p>
<p>Thanks for these ideas ucbalumnus. I never would have looked at those. I checked out the New Mexico one, and it looks interesting. I think they’re both probably too far away, but you never know. My daughter does like the southwest. </p>
Thanks for these ideas MidwestDad3. These look interesting, especially Denison and Wooster, since they’re not too far away.</p>
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That doesn’t surprise me at all I was talking about the big, reasearch-oriented SUNY’s. I was surprised to see that Brockport is the only SUNY besides Binhamton and Stony Brook that has an accredited Computer Science program. Buffalo isn’t on the list, which was very surprising. There are a couple of CUNYs that are accredited.</p>
<p>Sounds like you are methodically looking at schools that are possibilities @WalknOnEggShells . Hope the college selected offers enough so that if DD decides a different major, the school will still work out. If she qualified for an honors program, that could help with the smaller class size (or the feeling of a smaller group). The jr/sr classes are where more attention is needed. Many core courses, fr/so, a larger class size is not detrimental IMHO.</p>
Interesting about Stanford. Why do you think that is? They can’t be bothered, or they do things in such a different way that it doesn’t meet the ABET requirements?</p>
<p>Thank you to everyone who responded on this thread. I think I replied to everyone, but if I missed anyone, thanks very much for the information. I read all of the responses, and learned a lot. Thanks.</p>
I was talking about the big, reasearch-oriented SUNY’s. I was surprised to see that Brockport is the only SUNY besides Binhamton and Stony Brook that has an accredited Computer Science program. Buffalo isn’t on the list, which was very surprising. There are a couple of CUNYs that are accredited.</p>