I did not find this topic discussed re college; if I missed it in my search, I apologize.
This is a topic of considerable discussion with my son. He believed me while he was in HS – that learning was more important than GPA, and he did not graduate with an UW 4.0, although he was close. He is a freshman at Yale now.
The topic has risen again, as he says many of his classmates fret about what the x is in a GPA of 3.9x. I remain convinced, perhaps mistakenly, that future employers and/or grad schools will factor in rigor – he thinks that is charmingly old school. I fall back on the “if they treat a grade in Math 230 (a tough course) the same as a grade in Intro Psych (a good but not tough course), why would you want to work there?” line, but his retort is that such a righteous view won’t help him if all the good jobs go to kids who grubbed high GPAs. For the time being, he continues to take rigorous courses, but I wonder if he’s right and whether I’m giving him quaint advice better suited for another era.
I’m sure that we will discuss this during break. Views?
I can only speak for the companies I’ve recruited for over the last almost 30 years.
Rigor is quite important for many (not all) corporate roles. A 4.0 in sociology from Western CT State College is NOT better than a 3.5 in Linguistics from Cornell which is NOT better than a 3.2 in Aerospace Engineering from MIT (corrected for MIT’s 5 point grade scale of course.) It all depends. Many (not all) employers will request a transcript with the “resume drop” (the official application in the Fall of senior year, or the internship application junior year). The transcript will either demonstrate that a student has pushed him/herself beyond the easy A or not.
I would tell your son (if he were my kid) to focus on learning and let the grades evolve. If he thinks he’s going to head off to med school where GPA is critically important- ignore me. But if he’s looking at the working world, companies understand that a “philosophy for engineers” class isn’t as rigorous as a philosophy class taught for serious philosophy students, and that a “rocks for jocks” science class doesn’t hold the same intellectual content as a physical science class taught for science students.
I personally don’t like resumes with a 4.0 GPA listed prominently. Occasionally, it’s the resume of a kid who is clearly distinctive intellectually- elected to PBK junior year; evidence of strong and powerful horsepower (won a departmental fellowship for a research paper, currently co-authoring a study with a professor). And the transcript will back that up. More often, it’s a kid who has treated college like HS, i.e. just the next race to win, without regard for content, rigor, depth, or analysis.
Thank you @blossom for your seasoned view. I can’t say that I find it reassuring that med schools find GPA critically important, but as a regular consumer of medical services, I’ve learned to figure out which doctors probably graduated in the bottom half of their med school. If it’s so important, maybe they should post their GPA on the wall, along with all of the other accomplishments, honors, and diplomas.
Ixnay…just curious…those bottom med school grad doctors…were they the better ones? You know what they call the person who graduates last in the class at medical school…doctor.
ETA…I have one doctor who is extraordinarily book smart…but really, his bedside manner is…well…not terrific. He has a lot of difficulty explaining things to folks like me. He has actually taken to giving out websites for information. He is tough to chat with.
In my experience, the exact GPA isn’t as critical as what courses the person actually took…and I’m not talking rigor. Many majors such as engineering, education for example, have course sequences and core courses that are required for job and internship applicants. When I was interviewing, I looked for those.
@thumper1, my comments about doctors were probably made more in jest than seriousness. I have a fair number of doctors in my extended family, and I think that the most important factor that differentiates the better ones from the others is the extent to which medicine is a “calling” for them. My deceased uncle is the best doctor I’ve personally known, and he truly felt that the reason he was put on earth was to be a surgeon. I have no idea of his GPA or which quadrant of his class he graduated in.
Re course sequences and core courses: in my son’s particular case, but I imagine for others also, there is no major yet, hence no sequence. The classes taken are probably not orthogonal to whatever the eventual major will be, but they’re currently being selected on the basis of how generally useful and interesting they appear to be be.
For grad schools, both rigor and GPA are important. I was of the same mindset as you though, OP, in college - I definitely didn’t want to be a grade-grubber and I was far more interested in taking challenging, interesting classes than getting As in everything. I graduated with a 3.42, but I got into a PhD program at a top 10 Ivy in my field, so…I would say it turned out fine.
Anyway, I think most grad school professors would rather taken on a student who got a 3.6 but successfully completed upper-level courses and perhaps a graduate course or two - while also balancing research experience - than a student who got a 3.9 by taking the easiest classes in the department.
One thing I have learned is that Ivies tend to have rampant grade inflation on the undergrad level anyway, so it’s unlikely that your son’s GPA will be super-low as long as he does decently well. The other thing to remember is that is current classmates are all freshman anyway, and are used to the grade inflation and extra weight on harder classes in high school. In that case, a 3.9x was a more achievable grade (since so many of them have 4.6+ weighted, which is just meaningless to me). In college, where the highest you can get is a 4 - maybe a 4.33, rarely, if you get an A+ - getting a 3.9x is much harder. As they progress through coursework they’ll become enlightened about what is actually considered good in college and how it compares to high school. I would say a 3.2-3.3+ is good, a 3.5+ is great, a 3.7+ is really excellent. And personally, were I taking on a student, I would make few distinctions between a 3.7 and a 3.9. At that point it would be about other things.
By “grad school”, do you mean PhD programs or professional schools like law and medical school?
For employment, it likely matters what kind of jobs are being sought, and whether employers value specific majors or course work for new college graduate applicants.
@ucbalumnus, never say never, but medical school would be a surprise, law school a little less of a surprise. There’s a good chance that grad school, if at all, would be pursued after getting a job. He and we just don’t know. He’s talented at any number of things (CS, math, economics, etc.), so there are few futures that I’d rule out (art, music, etc.).
On employment, if I had to guess today, it would probably be related to CS, with finance or consulting a distant second and third. But, it’s early days yet.
For CS employment, it is best to take course work in CS concepts commonly used in all types of CS work. Among Yale’s CS courses listed at http://catalog.yale.edu/ycps/subjects-of-instruction/computer-science/#coursestext , these would include 365, 422, 433, 437, 439, 467. 426, 455, 454, 457 are also probably applicable in many contexts.
Of course, additional CS and other courses could be useful in particular areas of CS (e.g. algebra and number theory in math for cryptography).
CS is probably the major where GPA matters the least, as long as it’s not under 3.0 (and even then some get excused out of that and get a job). What matters for CS jobs is if you can pass the algorithms/data structures interview questions (which Yale will do a fine job teaching) and if you have the skills the job posting required and preferably any real project (personal or school related) to show you do have those skills.
My son recently took an astronomy class for a science distribution requirement. My son loves biology but didn’t want to take the class after hearing all the students whom he knows complaining about the class. According to him, he heard nothing but negatives about the class. While many would consider the astronomy class an easy A versus a traditional science class, my son said that there were students who were truly struggling in the class. He credits all his years of watching NOVA in elementary and middle school as the reason that the astronomy class was so easy for him!
You also have to sometimes differentiate between classes that are time intensive and intellectually challenging classes. My son has several classes that are very difficult on an intellectual level, but are not as time intensive. He also has several classes that aren’t as difficult on an intellectual level but require an enormous amount of time as far as homework/reading is concerned. These are two completely different things. Which one would you consider more challenging? Of course, there are also the classes that are both time intensive and intellectually challenging!
DS says that Math (both challenges) and French (time intensive only) last semester consumed, literally, as much time as all five of his courses this semester.
Do you think that the students complainng about the biology class have a good basis for their view? If your son isn’t headed in that direction, and he’s already fulfilled his distribution requirement, I guess it’s okay, but IMO it is sad to skip the class since he loves bio.
I have a funny story about astronomy. My older daughter (a decade out of college by now) attended a top 50 school and had a roommate who was not a natural at the sciences (but apparently a great hockey player). In the middle of her Astronomy semester, roommate said to my daughter: “remind me again, does the Sun go around the Earth, or does the Earth go around the Sun?” You can’t make this stuff up.
Course rigor vs GPA in college – effects on employment / grad school
I think “college GPA/course rigor” has probably zero effect on employment as to med/ law school students because it’s not chronologically where the topic comes up. As to med/ law students “college GPA/course rigor” comes up at the admission stage into med/law school, not the employment stage post graduation/residency.
“med school where GPA is critically important-“
The first two years of med school involve not only exposure enormous amounts of material, but some evidence via testing that the students are understanding it. College GPAs and to some degree course rigor offer some evidence that the student won’t crash and burn right out of starting blocks, so past GPAs are somewhat critical. ECs such as volunteering/shadowing, etc just don’t do the same.
“I’ve learned to figure out which doctors probably graduated in the bottom half of their med school.”
I’m sure that those in bottom half are there for first time in their life and are quite shocked.
@IxnayBob I think most people are responding with their thoughts about the general rigor vs GPA question. But your son is at Yale, and there are several Yale specific issues that might be important.
My company recruits primarily from the top of the class at HYPSM + Wharton + few other schools. Positions with us are pretty sought after; we’ll usually get hundreds of resumes in the resume drop. Yale is my least favorite school to recruit from. There’s rampant grade inflation even in these grade inflated times. I think 1/3 of the class has a GPA of 3.80 and above. At other schools I can cull the pile to a manageable size by doing an initial screen on major, GPA, accomplishments. Even though there are just as many very bright Yale students, it’s simply too hard to figure out who they are they are without really diving into their transcripts, which classes they’ve taken and with which professor (all very Yale specific stuff that only a recent Yale graduate would know). Personally, this makes me pay more attention to what a student’s major is and the rigor of their coursework, but that’s just me. I pretty much throw any Yale resume with a fluffy major, no outstanding something, and < 3.85 GPA in the garbage.
From your post it sounds like some Yale students are responding to this by fighting even harder for that extra .01 of a GPA so they can get a 3.94 instead of a 3.93. I think this is ridiculous; the system seems to be set up to encourage grade grubbing. What your son should do depends on whether he wants to get employment, go to medical or law school, or graduate school. Just make sure whatever general advice he receives is also adjusted for the fact that he’s at Yale.
If your son majors in CS and wants to work in CS after graduation (not go to grad school), then here’s my advice: 1) Finish in the top 1/2 - 1/3 of the GPA distribution for CS majors, whatever that is 2) Get internships during the summer with good / interesting companies 3) Again, get internships during the summer with good / interesting companies 4) Try to study something else to combine with his CS background, depending on his tastes and employment goals 5) Impress some professors.
Some additional blunt feedback that your son might not want to hear – Yale has poured a lot of money into STEM subjects the last few years. Outside of the biological sciences (which I know nothing about), it ain’t working. The CS department there has traditionally been small but relatively good at its specialties; however, it seems like they are definitely slipping. I don’t think they are attracting the best CS students and it isn’t where I go to hire top notch kids with strong technical skills (HMS are the best). The Yale name is still impressive though and I’m sure graduates are doing fine. It just seems to me that most students tend to succeed as broader people who happened to have technical backgrounds – say by pursuing a management track in a technical company. That’s why I recommend combining CS with something else. I could be wrong though, but remember that we’ve just gone through a boom in CS hiring when you’re looking at the data.
Can confirm that internships/personal projects/anything that isn’t classroom related (except for research you did with a professor maybe) is the best way to go with CS if you want a programming job.
It depends on a lot of factors, most notably what he plans to do after college. Different employers and different types of grad schools have different views. In general, very few are going to care about what x in 3.9x, They are far more likely to care about what type of experience he has in a work environment that relates to the position.
The survey at http://chronicle.com/items/biz/pdf/Employers%20Survey.pdf lists an aggregate summary of what hundreds of employers say the most important factors are for hiring decisions among new grads. The overall summary with relative importance rankings is below:
Internships – 23
Employment During College – 21
College Major – 13
Volunteer Experience – 12
Extracurricular Activities – 10
Relevance of Coursework – 8
College GPA – 8
College Reputation – 5
The interest in the x in 3.9x is probably due to the difference between summa cum laude and magna cum laude, which has been inflated beyond common sense.
I think that the reason there are so many students with high GPA’s at Yale is not so much due to grade inflation, as it is due to students selecting classes where they are ensured of high grades. For example, I have seen transcripts of students who started in the beginning language class in a language they already knew. Students who take graduate seminars in their majors when they are sophomores are probably not going to wind up with the highest grades (though some do), even though grades in grad classes tend to be higher most places than the grades in undergrad classes.
I disagree with al2simon, when it comes to the physical sciences at Yale. I think they are doing quite well. In my subfield, they have really outstanding faculty members. I can’t say anything knowledgeable about engineering, though.
QuantMech - Sorry, I should have been clearer. I meant that IMO despite all their spending Yale still wasn’t attracting the same caliber of (non-biological) undergraduate STEM students as their peers - they’re noticeably weaker and “different”. Without question Yale STEM faculty members are very accomplished, but I’m not hiring them. However, I do think the Yale is also having problems retaining and recruiting top notch CS faculty.
I don’t agree with you that Yale’s high GPAs are mostly driven by students re-taking classes that cover stuff they already know. I don’t think students at the rest of HPSM have purer motivations that those at Yale. The professors at Yale just give A’s out much easier. To be fair though, some of this is because there are fewer STEM students (where average grading tends to be lower) at Yale.
That’s not to say that the other schools don’t have grade inflation too, but I can adjust for it. To me, the problem at Yale is that it’s gotten ridiculous. The GPAs of the students I want to hire have gotten so compressed into the 3.90 - 4.00 range that it’s destroyed the information content almost entirely. By the time you are splitting hairs over a .01 the entire difference in GPAs might be just because one just happened to take the exact same class but with a professor who was feeling grumpier that day and gave 60% of the class A’s instead of 70%. It’s the information content, not the level, of the GPAs that’s the problem for me because I can no longer use it to do an easy first cut. I think the faculty at Yale is neglecting their responsibility to assign meaningful grades.
