Criminology, completely useless?

College Majors
1

<p>Hello all.</p>

<p>I'm new to the site and wanted to share/recieve some opinions about a B.A in Criminology. Now I'm in Canada so it works a little differently than in the U.S, but in terms of study and employment I would assume it's pretty much the same or very similar.</p>

<p>I currently attend UOIT in Ontario and am in my 3rd year of Criminology with a college diploma already received in Law & Security administration (for those who don't know, college is lower than university in Canada).</p>

<p>I feel like I have been given a rude awakening a little while attending this university and taking the criminology major... Is it just me? Or, is Criminology a completely useless degree UNLESS you want to become a basic foot patrol police officer? Because from what I have been searching here in Canada, there is NOTHING, NADA, ZIP for jobs related to Criminology... Everything here wants business or LAW which is different than Criminology.</p>

<p>Can any graduates or other students in a similar position, rather in the U.S or Canada, provide some feedback or opinion on the matter, as well as employment potential? Thanks!</p>

2

<p>Perhaps it would be a good pre-law major, if you were looking into criminal law and wanting to attend to law school. Otherwise, I’m not sure.</p>

3

<p>I think at what I’m trying to get or look for are options or what else I can do besides being a regular beat policeman or working in a prison. I very well know that both are honorable positions, I personally just don’t want to work rotating night shifts and deal with the scum of the earth on a face to face or daily basis.</p>

<p>I’m far more interested in other types of major crimes such as sourcing and prevention methods and would rather work for some type of agency like the CIA or the Canadian version known as CSIS.</p>

<p>I would like to hear from any Criminology based grads or current students who will be graduating and any information they could relay would be awesome.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

4

<p>If you want to work for CIA type agencies, CJ/Criminology isn’t what you want to take.</p>

<p>At least that’s how it works here in the US, our friends to the north may be different.</p>

<p>I’m speaking as a pretty good source, because I do crime/homeland security analysis so I know the internal workings pretty well.</p>

<p>I think the best route would be the military, that is were most of the intelligence agencies recruit from. Go in as an officer, and try to get into military intelligence. That’s your best route, but that’s no promise. Those positions are few and selective, so you need to find a back up plan.</p>

<p>In the states, the DEA, Secret Service, ICE, ATF, and FBI all heavily recruit from state and local police departments (FBI a bit less, but still significant). I’m not familiar with Canadien law enforcement agencies, but I’m sure they do the same. I do know that is basically unheard of for a college grad to immediately jump into those agencies unless they have some seriously needed skills, like they can speak some obscure language.</p>

<p>Also, if you don’t like rotating shifts, nights weekends and holidays - CIA type agencies aren’t for you either. Not only could you be working night shifts, but you could be working them in some foreign country you’d rather not be in. Or in the case of law enforcement agency like the DEA/ATF you will be required to work long surveillances at anytime of the day. So keep that in mind.</p>

<p>Criminal Justice isn’t a death blow to your dreams, but you certainly haven’t set yourself up the best. Most intelligence agencies are looking for some area of expertise, whether it be language, combat, prior intelligence (military), special operations, analytical, advanced computer skills, accounting, and hard sciences.</p>

<p>If that is the career you want, you need to go join the military or a police department, because right now it doesn’t seem like you have anything else to offer them.</p>

5

<p>Firstly; thanks for the excellent, honest and detailed response Beast.</p>

<p>I am very glad that someone with your background responded as your area of expertise are exactly along what I am interested in working. Homeland security or a private organization in regard to security issues, threat assessment and other similar analysis backed positions are indeed my desired or similar position in the future that I would like to achieve. </p>

<p>I have read your response thoroughly and have given some thought to what you have said and hope that my response will make sense to you.</p>

<p>I would like to first start by saying that when I stated I am not interested in working a rotating night shift or field course, I was referring solely to a policeman or a prison/security guard, I would be more than willing to accept a position with such hours if it were some sort of analytical, research or other desk or office backed environment.</p>

<p>As mentioned above, I am definitely more interested in a desk position and would rather steer away of a field operative position whichever that may be. Does the FBI, DEA, CIA ext, not have a need for someone like myself who has expertise and experience in Law & Security training as well as a Bachelors and soon to be Masters degree in Criminology and all of it’s related Sociological and Psychological understandings of why people commit crimes and there reasons? I would think that there would be some sort of need of a person with this sort of background?</p>

<p>In terms of a skill of which you mentioned, I do posses strong computer skills, a vast knowledge of criminal based activities and other factors under Criminology (terrorism, organized crime, street gangs and youth crime, cyber-crime ext) and I am very familiar with a vast array of social sciences and other related aspects.</p>

<p>I guess what I am wanting to learn from you now is that, in order to get such a position as an analyst, security advisor, threat assessment or other similar position, I need to have training/experience with some sort of enforcement agency such as police or military? Or is there another possible route, even the private sector?</p>

<p>Thanks again, I hope to hear from you.</p>

<p>Shock.</p>

6

<p>As mentioned above, I am definitely more interested in a desk position and would rather steer away of a field operative position whichever that may be. Does the FBI, DEA, CIA ext, not have a need for someone like myself who has expertise and experience in Law & Security training as well as a Bachelors and soon to be Masters degree in Criminology and all of it’s related Sociological and Psychological understandings of why people commit crimes and there reasons? I would think that there would be some sort of need of a person with this sort of background?</p>

<hr>

<p>I’m going to brutally honest with you, so please do not take offense.</p>

<p>The short answer is no, they don’t have a need for the background you described.</p>

<p>First, you don’t have expertise. Expertise comes from work experience or years and years of study (PHD level research) on a single focuses issue that is currently in need. All the “expertise” you mentioned is less than the real world knowledge that any state trooper already has or any local police officer worth their salt. </p>

<p>You may have computer skills, but I assure you that you are no expert. They want people with MS in computer sciences combined with work experience doing computer forensics and other specialized work. Sorry.</p>

<p>The skills they want are are as follows, and classroom work doesn’t not count. They want people who have done the work, in the field, on the street. Intelligence (former military), Computer skills, language (fluent only), Special Operations/Forces, Accounting, and former experience working in specialized LE units such as narcotics, homicide, vice, forensics, ect.</p>

<p>You need to accept the fact that you do not have a skill set. There are literally thousands of CJ majors out there just like you, unfortunately you aren’t unique and don’t bring anything to the table at this time.</p>

<p>Also, anyone in federal LE (CIA is no a LE agency) is an AGEN FIRST, meaning you are expected to be in the filed if necessary. If you want a desk job, you picked the wrong career. Sorry if I sound rude, but I get college kids all the time wanting to have the badge and be able to say, “I’m an FBI agent”, but aren’t willing to put their time in the trenches as a cop or soldier. If you want to work at a desk - go into business. Yes, many agents have desk related jobs (esp FBI), but they don’t just walk in as an unproven college grad and expect a comfy office job with no nights, weekends or holidays. </p>

<p>You may be able to become an analyst some where, but not in the USA. The fact that you are a foreign citizen would prevent you from gaining a security clearance. So focus in Canada. One of the first things an application ask is if you are a US citizen and if you registered for the selective service - which you aren’t/haven’t.</p>

<p>Like I said, just giving you the brutal truth. </p>

<p>As for as threat assessment - not a chance, at least not in the US. Once again, those jobs are provided to agents/detectives who have years of experience in a given field and make a shift into that line of work within the agency. Ditto Security Advisor (whatever that is). </p>

<p>Private sectors don’t really have a counterpart because you need a security clearance to perform the work, that you only gain from the government and military. Some private companies that do government contracts will hire you with no security clearance, but thats tough. It’s much easier for them to hire someone with a current clearance, or a person who formerly held one. Maybe in Canada it will be different, but doubtful.</p>

<p>I must ask, why don’t you want to be a cop or join the military? THATS WHAT YOU NEED TO DO! That’s were careers like this start! You don’t start at the top, you start as a patrol officer, soldier, grunt and earn your respect.</p>

<p>I’m happy to answer any questions, so please feel free too.</p>

<p>P.S. Some police departs hire crime analysts (not very often) that doesn’t require you to have a security clearance or be a cop first. However, you do need previous work as an analyst - so I’m not sure if that helps.</p>

<p>Most of the training you want is all found in the LE/Military world, sorry.</p>

7

<p>I have a friend who has a job offer, with a bachelor’s in criminal justice, from the FBI…</p>

8

<p>I doubt it, not without work experience - not as an agent.</p>

<p>In fact, the FBI requires 3 years working experience to meet the minimum qualifications and you must meet one of their critical skills.</p>

<p>[Federal</a> Bureau of Investigation](<a href=“http://www.fbijobs.gov/111.asp]Federal”>http://www.fbijobs.gov/111.asp)</p>

<p>Taken from their website:</p>

<p>“To become an FBI Special Agent you must be a U.S. citizen or a citizen of the Northern Mariana Islands. You must be at least 23 years of age, but younger than 37 upon your appointment as a Special Agent. Age waivers may be granted to preference eligible veterans who have surpassed their 37th birthday. You must possess a four-year degree from a college or university accredited by one of the regional or national institutional associations recognized by the United States Secretary of Education. You must have at least three years of professional work experience. You must also possess a valid driver’s license and be completely available for assignment anywhere in the FBI’s jurisdiction.”</p>

9

<p>BIGeastBEAST has given good advice here and has much more question-specific knowledge than I do.</p>

<p>Years ago, as a member of the USAF, I worked with the Canadian Armed Forces. They had a high opinion of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and I got the impression that the RCMP did some high-speed ops. Have you looked into them?</p>

<p>And I’ll second the suggestion for police and/or military service, with the nod going to military if you have the interest since entry is more time-critical in terms of age.</p>

<p>Are there specific message boards for Canadian forces of this sort. If so, I’d post questions over there. A non-citizen will only know so much about another country’s organizations and opportunities - though I think BIGeastBEAST was dead-on regarding experience.</p>

10

<p>Wow, tons of information here from Beast and others. Thanks again.</p>

<p>Beast.</p>

<p>I am honestly a little shocked to learn some of this information that you are relaying to me and yet at the same time am extremely grateful that you have.</p>

<p>From what I have been gathering through your most recent response, entry to such agencies such as the CIA or FBI usually require some sort of service either in a police force or the military in order to become an officer, analyst or any other non-field level position regardless of education or a skill set? OR would they take someone with say highly specialized computer skills that does NOT possess any military of police experience?</p>

<p>I can clearly understand that any person must work there way up to have a comfy desk job and I obviously understand that a person who joins the police force or military (unless entering as an officer) will most likely not gain admittance to such a secure position without working his or her way through the ranks. However, I do know that at least in the Canadian military, personnel who enter with a university degree (doesn’t matter which major) will have a better chance of rising or being placed in a position of their preference, over a soldier with no secondary education who simply ranked up.</p>

<p>In response to your question as to the reason that I didn’t want to be a policeman or enter the military is because of the sheer danger fact and time spent away from family and loved ones, also I feel I am much more suited toward some sort of analytical or critical thinking position rather than a beat policeman or serviceman. However, I have read what you are saying about that such threat assessment or higher agency positions require this police or military service first.</p>

<p>In terms of working in the U.S, I would have no trouble obtaining my citizenship or dual citizenship. Rather or not that is still acceptable being born in a foreign country or not I am not sure of, perhaps you could answer if that is acceptable to work in such an agency in the U.S, saying I had the desired skills they were looking for.</p>

<p>The entire point of me attending university and Criminology was the focus and chance to achieve a higher position than just a simple beat policeman or serviceman (I could have simply entered the police service or military when I completed my college diploma in Law & Security, but chose to continue on with Criminology thinking that it would further advance me or chance of bring hired into a higher position, V.S someone without such a degree.)</p>

<p>So from your point of view, the area that I am interested in (threat assessment, anti-terrorism research, homeland security, cybercrime ext, ext) do not require a Criminology degree and it is in fact pointless toward such a position?</p>

<p>If I may ask, that you or anyone else reading this post, where or what can a graduate do with a Criminolgy degree, because once again I am finding it to be more useless day by day…</p>

11

<p>First, you need to be a US citizens prior to applying for the position. If you aren’t you are ineligible.</p>

<p>Second, even if you did get your citizenship, the chances of you being hired are slim, because foreigners are rarely provided with a security clearance, which is needed to work as a 1811, criminal investigators.</p>

<p>Anti-terrorism, and some of the other things you mentioned aren’t entry-level positions, and you willl need a security clearance that you can’t get. </p>

<p>To work as an 0132 Intel Analyst doesn’t require a LE/police or military background, but most competitive applicants will have that experience, thus putting your chances at pretty slime. Plus, you need a security clearance that you can’t get. Also, in the US Veterans receive 10 perference points when applying to government jobs, which you also don’t have. Some individuals are hired as analysts without military/LE experience but they possess a critical skill. For example, they have a PHD with years of research and have published work on some obscure part of the world, language, oragnization, ect. In short, it’s nothing that you get from criminal justice. A CJ degree is fine, as long as it is combined with proper experience, LE/military. Without that sort of experience, it’s not going to open any doors that you are hoping to walk into.</p>

<p>Threat assessments are often done by private contractors, but they only hirer former government/military people with security clearances with experience doing the work. Not reading about it in a book. Typically, they are 20 year vets of the military or LE agency and are working as a consultant or using the job to pad their pension. No company is going to hire a college kid whos never performed the job.</p>

<p>Thirdly, you should not say things like, “simple beat policeman or serviceman”, if you use language like that in the states you will get a black eye. Those “simple” police officers working our streets have a very difficult job (one that you admit you are to scared to do), and deserve respect. Double ditto, to our servicemen. We have been fighting two ongoing wars and have lost thousands of good, “simple” servicemen, many with families and bright futures. Don’t insult their service by referring to them, their job, or their duty as “simple”, because someone has to do the job, and you already said the “danger” is to much for you. To bad, so sad - we don’t want people like you working with us.</p>

<p>As I stated, every agent is expected to sacrifice for the job, meaning nights, holidays, weekends, and yes - put themselves in danger. </p>

<p>If you want to work as an analyst, go join your military and become an intelligence analyst or intelligence officer. That’s how people get started. If the danger scares you, or you can’t handle being away from your family - go find a different career. </p>

<p>There is no clear cut path to become an analyst or federal agent, the needs of agencies change year to year and what they want today may be different tomorrow. However, the best route is becoming a police officer, then becoming a detective/specialized unit or become an officer in the military - which I feel is better because you have the possibility to get exposed to intel collection and practices, security policy, deployment experience, a security clearance, and lateral options.</p>

<p>Other careers that criminal justice degrees are good for is corrections, probation, and social work.</p>

<p>If you want to be an analyst, go sign up to be one.</p>

<p>[Canadian</a> Forces Recruiting - Job Explorer](<a href=“http://www.forces.ca/html/intelligenceofficer_reg_en.aspx]Canadian”>http://www.forces.ca/html/intelligenceofficer_reg_en.aspx)</p>

12

<p>I’d like to add that you should be actively finding the jobs you’d like to have (or have someday) and take a look at the criteria. More than likely it will be general, something like, “The applicant must possess 10-15 years of professional experience comparable to the duties and responsibilities related to this position”, then go find out what the duties and responsibilities of the position are…that will give you a good indicator.</p>

<p>Also, to beef up your skills as an analyst, you need to get some analyst skills. It sounds like you’ve mistakenly focused on the wrong aspects of the job, meaning you focused on crime, rather than the skills needed to analyze crime/security and compile it.</p>

<p>Here are some basic skills neded for an analyst. If a person has these skills, they have potential to do the job well.</p>

<ul>
<li>Private and open-source database systems</li>
<li>GIS (Geographic Information Systems)</li>
<li>Quantitative Methods</li>
<li>Applied Statistics</li>
<li>Technical Report Writing</li>
<li>Research Process Methods</li>
</ul>

<p>Those are in no particular order.</p>

<p>Now, I don’t know how it works in Canada, but here in the US some federal agencies will do large-scale hiring of intel analysts. The competition is high, mainly former military analysts, investigators, and current analysts from other agencies. So walking in cold is extremely difficult. </p>

<p>Here is my advice for you.</p>

<p>If you are deadset against joining the military or law enforcement, your best bet is to get an entry-level job for a government agency that also has analysts. Then after a few years, try to laterally move into an research/intel position. However, this is no sure shot, not by any means. </p>

<p>As I said, I know nothing about the Canadian government, so you’ll have to do your own research and figure out how they operate.</p>

<p>Also, you need to give up the idea of working for a US agency. It’s not going to happen. The first two questions on every application I fill out is, 1) Are you a US Citizen, 2) Have you registered for the Selective Service. </p>

<p>And as I mentioned previously, even if you did get your citizenship (which would be a silly thing to do just to get a job you probably won’t get), your chances of being granted a security clearance are low.</p>

<p>Foreign contacts are a major deal in clearances, and it’s just not realistic. Especially for an intelligence position, they don’t play around or take chacnes.</p>

13

<p>Did I say that it was a special agent offer? No, I did not. Analyst, I believe, is what’s on the table.</p>

14

<p>Pretty uncommon, especially for a criminal justice major.</p>

<p>There are all types of support positions which are more likely for a recent college grad.</p>

15

<p>To the OP:</p>

<p>I forgot to mention that some local PD’s hire crime analysts. It’s not really the kind of job you were wanting, but it’s a start.</p>

<p>Typically they just pull information from databases and map out high crime rate areas and provide the information to the departments brass.</p>

<p>You can get one of thos positions without LE/military. Many postings will say, “Previously experience as a military analyst or working in a police department crime analysis unit preferred”, but it all depends. </p>

<p>I will say those with previous experience are more competitive, but that goes without saying.</p>

<p>Again, you will most likely need to be a US resident, if not a resident of the state and/or city. So I’d just focus on Canada.</p>

<p>I’ve heard of a few people with a BA/MS and a few years of work experience getting these types of jobs. However, they aren’t the same jobs you desire.</p>

16

<p>Thanks, for clarifying that by simply obtaining a U.S citizenship does not mean that I will be accepted for such secure jobs. I figured this as much, however I have heard of Canadian graduates working in the U.S with police departments and the U.S border patrol, of course this is not the same level of security clearance required for the CIA or FBI.</p>

<p>Reading from what you have been stating about Criminal Justice in the U.S does sound quite different from the Criminology program that I am presently taking here in Ontario. A vast majority of this B.A contains a variety of research methods both quantitative and qualitative, requires analytical analysis and also places 4th and final year students in a work related environment either along-side a police force or other social agency related to the Criminal justice field. Does this sound in at all different from what you know of Criminology in the States?</p>

<p>I think you misunderstood the context in which I referred to an entry level police constable or private and lower ranking member of the military. What I meant by “simple” in no way was I attempting to degrade them for their work or duty and sacrifice that they give for their country, I was referring to the level of training, expertise, job requirements and applications, enforcement and involvement in matters that do require a higher level of education/training than that required of a low ranking serviceman or police constable. I am proud of the men and women who make this sacrifice for their countries safety, each and every day.</p>

<p>I am not scared of the work a policeman or serviceman must do, nor am I upset about working long and obscure hours; in fact I enjoy such a challenge and would welcome it in the proper setting. What I do dislike about the job of beat policeman and especially serviceman is the fact that they are continuously out in the field, getting their feet in the trenches and are literally shot at, take physical and mental abuse on a daily basis, work an extremely amount of hours which can lead to several causes of stress and anxiety, not to mention the time spent away from their own wife and children because of such a job. Finally, the fact that you may not come home to your family the next day is not a position I would rather be put in for the amount of pay and minimal respect received from the public of this country, it disgusts me at times (ex, the majority of the public will often refer to these hardworking men and women as pigs and uneducated grunts). For these multiple reasons, I would heavily prefer NOT to be involved in a field operating position, however I never said I was not capable of doing it.</p>

<p>I do possess and have experience (minimal professionally thus far, outside of university) of Private and open based data systems, GIS Geographic Information Systems (have had first-hand experience under the training of a police officer utilizing such software in regards to crime mapping, as well as a course even called GIS itself, which I did well in), I possess both quantitative and qualitative research skills and have taken a course on both, I am at a moderate operating level in terms of statistics and information gathering, I have several years of reporting writing at the University/College level using APA, MLA and Chicago, I have considerable experience and have taken several courses outlining research methods and gathering of information. All of this is course related to Criminology and of course crime thus far.</p>

<p>I have been researching and have contacted many persons in the Canadian government pertaining to entry level analyst positions within the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police), CBSA (Canada Border Services Agency), DND (Department of Defence) and finally CSIS (Canadian Security and Intelligence Service) and some do require experience however, some do not and I can at least confirm that the CBSA does indeed recruit Criminology students through government work experience programs.</p>

<p>I have looked into being a crime analyst for a police department. This usually does pertain basic filing, minimal research and GIS mapping services, however. Here in Canada at least, although such a crime analyst may have a considerable amount of higher education and training then the “brass” they are reporting too, they will never rank up or be able to compete for a higher position simply because they were not a police officer first, which to me is extremely disappointing. In my opinion, a person with years of law training/education and analytical experience should be given the chance to excel in the same way that a person who simply entered the police service without a post secondary education or any other specialized training should be able to attain a higher position which would require the skills already obtained by the analyst when they first started within said police force. It’s unfortunate and even misguided in my opinion; however that is how it seems to work in Canada.</p>

<p>Thanks for your honesty and information/opinion on such matters. Overall I must say that I am somewhat disappointed with the options open to Criminology grads and feel that they are looked over simply because some of their education is focused on social aspects, which is true, however at least in the program I am attending, much has to do with the enforcement aspect of criminality, research and law.</p>

17

<p>OK, now it looks like you have a better picture of what you want (and don’t want) to do. So wrap up that degree with top grades and hopefully a job-related internship and pursue the sort of analyst position you want with everything you’ve got. </p>

<p>Once you settle into the job, see what it takes to excel and go from there. The fact that certain types of experience can limit one’s career advancement within an organization is a separate conversation - but if you have a genuine passion for this type of work you will have some degree of success.</p>

18

<p>And again you are still not getting the bigger picture of the training police officers go through. Try making it through RCMP training at depot. Tell me how easy it is</p>

19

<p>Beast, I have a question if you don’t mind answering it…</p>

<p>I am curious if one could obtain work as an agent in the FBI with a degree in Music Performance or Music Education. </p>

<p>My cousin has it in his mind that the best way to get into the FBI is to obtain a CJ degree, I have not had the chance to speak with him about this, but his real love and what our family wishes he would pursue is music ( performance and education). I want him to be able to do what he loves while in college and still obtain the career he wants after.</p>

<p>Is this at all probable, and if so then how likely is it?</p>

<p>Thank you man.</p>

20

<p>^ First, I always start these discussions with the same question, why the FBI?</p>

<p>Anyways, on to your question.</p>

<p>CJ and Music are both aweful choices.</p>

<p>Yes, it is possible to get hired by the FBI with a degree in Music, however he would be severely handicapping his chances. I mean, it’s possible to get hired by the FBI with any degree/major, but he wouldn’t be off to a good start.</p>

<p>Regardless of his major, he will need work experience before he can be hired, and will need to qualify for employment under the FBI’s Critical Skill list.</p>

<p>Special Agent positions arent entry-level jobs and will require other relevant work experience to get hired.</p>

<p>With the right work experience, his major wouldn’t be a big deal, but picking music would just be a waste of time. </p>

<p>Why not go for something he can actually use? Going to school for Music when you want to work in the FBI would be totally stupid.</p>