Cross admit, Princeton vs Yale

Colleges & Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>Hello everyone, this is my first time in a CC forum. I'm facing the really difficult choice of committing to either Yale or Princeton (I just returned from their preview programs, and loved both). I'm undecided for a major, but am considering international relations, physics, or economics. I adore creative writing and am politically active.</p>

<p>What I love about Princeton is the safety of the campus, their well known science departments and the woodrow wilson school. However, I want to double in international relations and physics, and I know that princeton doesn't offer a double major. I am considering concentrating in IR and then getting two certificates-- creative writing and physics. I enjoy the suburban atmosphere, and the campus is beautiful, (I felt very at home on campus) but I dislike eating clubs. The whole concept just seems like a co-ed fraternity/sorority that you eat at, and is very expensive. I like the student body, they seem a little more introverted than Yale, which I also enjoyed.</p>

<p>What I love about Yale is their strength in humanities and the arts. I want to perform in poetry slams, and have a loud political voice. There are multitudes of clubs on campus, that seem (not more energetic) but in larger quantity at Yale than Princeton. The student body also seems more extroverted and fun. I would be able to double major at Yale, but they don't offer minors. I, of course, love the residential college system, but the town of New Haven is not as safe as Princeton. I adore the campus, however, and feel like I would fit in there as at Princeton. I am also interested in joining an acapella group, and I feel like Yale is a little less intense than Princeton (Princeton's tough grading policy, etc.) and I also like that finals are before break, so that break can be more stress free.</p>

<p>In other words, I think I'd feel more comfortable at Princeton but be happier/ have more fun at Yale. I have no idea what to do about my conundrum, and thank anyone in advance if they would voice their opinion. I also posted this to the Yale forum page.</p>

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<p>There are clearly no bad choices here, but let me address some of your points.</p>

<p>Given your academic interests, I think that academically, Princeton is perfect for you. I truly believe that the Princeton creative writing department is unparalleled. The professors are extraordinary–Jeffrey Eugenides, Joyce Carol Oates, Paul Muldoon, Chang-rae Lee, recent Pulitzer Prize winner Tracy Smith–and they are completely dedicated to teaching and interacting with undergraduates. The Princeton physics department is top-notch (4th in the country according to the Gourman undergraduate rankings and 8th in terms of undergraduates who go on to earn a PhD in physics). And you know about the Woodrow Wilson school, which is now open to all undergraduates.</p>

<p>In terms of double majors vs. certificates, I’m not sure that the name is that important. Princeton doesn’t have double majors mainly because of the thesis requirement, but certificates will allow you to take numerous courses in a second or third area and receive recognition from the school and from employers/grad schools etc. that you have focused on more than one area.</p>

<p>In terms of eating clubs, the university has taken steps to make them financially accessible to all (financial aid now covers the increased costs of a meal plan at eating clubs), but has also developed alternative eating arrangements. Students can live and take their meals in four-year residential colleges, can live outside of residential colleges and take their meals in the residential colleges and can even live in a residential college and enjoy a shared meal plan with an eating club (here’s a link which describes some of the options available [Independent</a> Student Guide › Room Draw](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/~isg/colleges.html]Independent”>http://www.princeton.edu/~isg/colleges.html)). And I think that there are major differences between frats/sororities and eating clubs. Five of the eating clubs are sign-in clubs open to all, allowing anyone who is interested to join a club. Moreover, while frats/sororities are known for closed parties, on any given Thursday, Friday or Saturday, many Princeton eating clubs offer open parties (and even closed parties are pretty easy to get into).</p>

<p>I agree that Yale is an active lively campus, but I think that Princeton is equally vibrant. From the free movies every weekend at the Garden Theater, to the plethora of theater, dance and acapella groups, Princeton students are involved in and dedicated to their extracurriculars. And because of the high endowment per student, Princeton has enormous resources to dedicate to undergraduates, from research opportunities to the Bridge Year Program to sufficient space all over campus for dance, theater, meetings etc. I am not trying to bash Yale (and there would be no way to do so, because Yale is great), but take a look at this recent article in the Yale Daily News and the nearly unanimous comments indicating that while there are lots of activities at Yale, it has been hard for students to find the space to practice, rehearse or simply watch TV together [REVESZ:</a> Feudalism in the colleges | Yale Daily News](<a href=“http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2012/apr/10/revesz-feudalism-in-the-colleges/]REVESZ:”>http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2012/apr/10/revesz-feudalism-in-the-colleges/)</p>

<p>Good luck in making your choice–you really can’t go wrong.</p>

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<p>Also do not forget the focus on undergrad studies at Princeton.</p>

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<p>midatlmom’s post was incredibly comprehensive, so I only have these two things to reiterate:</p>

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<p>Before I got to Princeton, I thought eating clubs were the weirdest things in the world. And they kind of are, but they’re also vastly different from what I thought they would be. Some of them do give off a frat vibe, but that doesn’t describe most of them. It’s just that the easiest way to describe them to people from home is as coed frats, because there’s nothing else they really come close to resembling. But many of the sign-in clubs, and even some of the bicker clubs, don’t have that exclusive and/or rage-y feel. For underclassmen, they serve as a locus of partying and weekend socializing. But for the 80% of upperclassmen in a club, they are much more: a place to hang out during the week and eat meals with friends. </p>

<p>And don’t forget the co-ops and res colleges, which offer options to other students. </p>

<p>Is this social structure divisive? Yes and no. Obviously, it groups students into different environments, and unlike Yale’s diverse res colleges, eating clubs tend to reflect various student interests–hipsters in one club, wrestlers in another, and Woody Woo majors in still another. But that doesn’t mean that you entirely stop socializing with friends in other clubs when you join a different one. I’ll leave it at that because I’m an ignorant freshman and others with more reliable info can jump in.</p>

<p>Also, finaid increases, no questions asked, junior and senior year to help cover the price of eating clubs. Additionally, several clubs offer less expensive “shared” meal plans with the dining halls. And one of the eating clubs just reduced their price to match that of an unlimited dining hall meal plan. </p>

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<p>I also had this impression as a high school student. I think a lot of people do. Rest assured, however, that the humanities and the arts are alive and well at Princeton. There are an almost unbelievable number of student groups in the performing arts, and several student publications for the writers among us. (Not to mention a truly outstanding creative writing department–like, seriously.) I feel like everyone I know sings or does theater. I don’t think, in short, that you’ll want for artistic outlets on Princeton’s campus.</p>

<p>Best of luck with your decision!</p>

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<p>Thank you so much for such detailed answers-- it really helped clarify the questions I had. The different perspectives and the article were especially helpful. I feel less intimidated by the concept of eating clubs now and the system of concentrations and certificates. It is comforting to know that there are many options, and that financial aid helps cover those costs. </p>

<p>Another facet of Princeton that seems intimidating is the stress-- I’ve heard “horror stories” about the fact that finals are after break.</p>

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<p>Horror stories about finals after break? I’d love to hear those. I’m quite a fan of having finals after break, which gives everyone the chance to to go home, rest up, and catch up on reading if necessary (or get a jump start on paper-writing for those with intense Dean’s Date workloads). We still have a nine-day reading period after break to take care of all the necessary studying and writing, and Princeton has a very student-friendly finals policy: finals period lasts eleven days, and no student is required to take more than one exam on any given day.</p>

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<p>I’ve never heard horror stories about finals after break. As FightTheTide has pointed out, there is more than enough time after you return to campus to study for finals (and you have the option of doing work during the holidays if you want to). The only thing I’ve heard about finals after break is that some people would prefer to finish finals before break, which is a more traditional schedule–however, I don’t think that’s anything to do with stress. Rather, they just would prefer to have them out of the way.</p>

<p>I don’t think that Princeton is overall more stressful than Yale. For example, at Yale, there is a 36 credit graduation requirement versus Princeton’s 31 credit graduation requirement plus the senior thesis and junior papers. And while writing the thesis can be difficult, I happen to think that the thesis is one of the defining characteristics of the Princeton educational experience. The thesis allows you to work incredibly closely with your faculty adviser, delve into a subject in enormous depth and enhance your analytical and writing skills. It is a bonding experience for everyone at the school and at the end of the process, most students are incredibly proud that they have written something meaningful.</p>

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<p>Ah, I didn’t know that students weren’t required to take more than one final on any day, and now that I think about it (despite the annoyance of having finals looming overhead during break), it would be nice to have a restful time to study for them. My current high school is actually set up in that manner, so it wouldn’t be significantly different. The thesis sounds intimidating, but I think it is also an interesting challenge. I found that writing the extended essay (I’m in the IB program) was easier than I had thought it would be, and that I learned quite a bit on the way. The extended essay wasn’t really comparable to a senior thesis (in length nor depth), but it was still reasonably longer than any paper I had previously written. </p>

<p>Thank you again for such detailed answers! I’m confident that I can now make an informed decision about where I will spend my next four years.</p>

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<p>The intensity of the academics did not prevent three members of the Tigressions a cappella group at Princeton from being awarded, in the last 2 years, Rhodes, Marshall, and Gates Cambridge Scholarships.</p>

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<p>What a nice dilemma to have! Of the 36 credits required at Yale, 4 may be Cr/D/F, so it’s really 32 regular courses plus 4 more that let you explore what you wish, without much stress.</p>

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<p>I want to hate the eating clubs, as an alumna who joined one and quit it, decades ago. But both my children have LOVED their clubs, despite being very different people who joined very different places in two different processes. The system seems to work very well for a large majority of kids. Mysteries of mysteries.</p>

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<p>Same at Princeton, just FYI. Four of the 31 can be P/D/F.</p>

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<p>btw, Yale also has a thesis reuqurement. If you double major, you need to do two theses.</p>

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<p>^^ No, I think only for some majors theses are required. Other majors don’t require them, although if you want to do one, I heard you are more than welcome to! :)</p>

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<p>Oh, and to chime in about Princeton’s creative writing program, it is extraordinary. Undergraduates meet in small classes taught by writers like Joyce Carol Oates, Jeffrey Eugenides, Edmund White and Chang-Rae Lee.</p>

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<p>^Not to mention poetry workshops with C.K. Williams, Paul Muldoon, Michael Dickman, and the newly crowned Pulitzer Prize winning Tracy K. Smith.</p>