<p>Top students have an interesting array of schools to choose from in this elite group of colleges. While the groupings below are not perfect (as clearly some schools have the ability to be classified in multiple ways), here is one way to look at these schools for application purposes</p>
<p>In the application process, what schools seem to be natural comparables and places where you would see the highest number of cross-applications? How are students thinking about these schools vis-</p>
<p>The problem is that these can be intermingled. I know many who chose between Duke, Dartmouth, and Brown (all from three different lists). Similarly Northwestern vs. WashU (two different lists) is a common decision. And Semi-urban/ Urban is a huge difference, just as big as semi-urban/ rural in some cases. And I doubt there are as many Cornell/ Dartmouth cross admits because one is an undergrad focused college while the other is a large research institution.</p>
<p>Its hard to segment these schools.</p>
<p>slipper1234,
I hesitated to post this because of the very legitimate objections you raise. Particularly given the great uncertainty of today's college admissions process. Still, I thought that there were SOME natural overlaps and that is what I was trying to communicate. </p>
<p>I am always surprised by the student who applies to a school like Columbia and then also to a Dartmouth. Other than both being Ivies, these strike me as very different schools with very different environments and which produce very different undergraduate experiences. And yet I suspect that this happens a lot and I was hoping to better understand if and how students are thinking about the schools to which they might apply.</p>
<p>What more then when one applies to all eight ivies, which comes up pretty often! ;)</p>
<p>I would agree with hawkette and never understand how someone could apply to both Dartmouth and Columbia. Dartmouth and Cornell were two of my top choices in large part due to liking the ruralness factor. I get the impression that in more recent years of USNWR permeating candidates' minds more than in the past that more students are not as disciminating in their applications and are choosing schools because one is ranked #10 and the other #14 (only in the current year, no less) rather than thinking it through more thoroughly.</p>
<p>At least in preliminary selection, I think that the list looks rather useful. Thanks!</p>
<p>I think while Dartmouth and Columbia are very different, many of the Ivies do have similar qualities. Personally, among the Ivies I still would apply to Yale, Princeton, Brown, Penn, and Dartmouth. All of these schools have active on campus social lives, are undergrad focused (except Penn but the social aspect would keep me sending in an application), are in the NE, and have incredibly talented and bright students.</p>
<p>slipper,
^^^^^I agree with your comments here and could see that same student also making an application to one or more of the Well Blended Schools (Stanford/Duke/Northwestern/Vanderbilt/Rice) as those schools, like Yale/Princeton/Brown,Penn/Dartmouth, have great students and the enviroment and experience is about more than just academics. </p>
<p>Part of this strategery depends on where you are coming from, eg, if you are from Texas, obviously Rice is on the list, but then you have to decide what are its best comps in the Ivies and among other Well Blended Schools. Or if you are from Illinois, you would probably consider either Northwestern or U Chicago (but NOT both as these are just very different schools) and then find other comps in the Ivy group and elsewhere.</p>
<p>I think you should have 3 lists: Location, academics, social</p>
<p>UChicago and Rice have a lot of similarities in location, but are very very different socially.</p>
<p>Duke and Darthmouth are similar socially and academically, but vastly different in location.</p>
<p>And so on.</p>
<p>Oh dear Hawkette, your bias is showing:) Can we at least try to imagine that at those places where academics is considered a main reason to attend a place of higher education, that there may be kids who find athletics something to do and not watch?(Watching actually makes them itch) That a social life could revolve around BOTH drinking and having an intellectual discussion? That not everyone thinks it's necessary to set aside 'work' and drink until they recognize their shoes in order to be balanced? That perhaps these kids may be slightly more sophisticated in their pursuit of fun? It seems on more than one occasion, you start your argument with the assumption that 'fun' is one size fits all for everyone and that some kids reject it rather than define it differently.</p>
<p>For what it's worth, my son was after a place where he could just be himself.(He never gave a thought to 'location') He wanted a place where someone would understand him when he described a book as deep fried sex:) He thinks smart girls are sexy, and staying up all night discussing recent art trends and IPOs is nothing short of nirvana. Crashing jazz clubs is a highly skilled talent he's honed.</p>
<p>I'm afraid he's not after your definition of balance. That definition wouldn't make him happy at all. He has friends at 'well balanced' schools and visits there always made him realize that he's not that kind of kid.(He'd have fun at these places but they wouldn't answer his higher education needs) But the minute he read the witty slogan, 'where fun goes to die' he knew he had found his school spirit.</p>
<p>Like more than a few other Chicago kids he's met, Brown and Stanford were considered like minded schools. Nothing to do with location, or sports or balance. Everything to do with the mind. Yale too, though here prestige mattered.... Yale almost always won out hands down. The point is, for him and his friends, separating the schools into prestige and location would mean nothing. It's not really getting at why they choose the schools they do. Some of these kids really are looking for fit.(And that may mean looking at schools up and down the US news rankings) I'm sure you could lump Columbia, Rice and a whole bunch more kids into this pile.</p>
<p>I think Duke and Dartmouth are in two or three of those categories actually</p>
<p>^^^ yes i agree, while dartmouth is rural, i think that it should be in the mix of academic/social/athletics category, and i would maybe say rice should not be, and instead be in urban/semi-urban category</p>
<p>an interesting list!</p>
<p>ramses2,
Many thanks for your excellent and thought provoking post. Your son, probably like you (Mom/Dad), sounds like an interesting young man and if his social life at his college is what makes him happy, then that is all that matters. Certainly not my opinion or those of other posters. </p>
<p>In other threads (although not here as I was originally trying to better understand how students group schools for application purposes) I have promoted the benefits of a balanced, comprehensive undergraduate experience. I have not hid my preference for colleges that do much more than provide an exceptional academic experience. That has been/is my bias. Sometimes these preferences manifest themselves in references to the “party scene” or to the “athletic scene” but I fully realize that these don’t appeal to all students and certainly not to equal degrees. But a good social scene and athletic scene do have relatively broad interest for most high school applicants looking for a college and they provide some grounds for comparisons among schools and the non-academic environments that they offer to undergraduates. </p>
<p>I have tried elsewhere to help define what makes for a good social environment at a college, but I will be the first to say that one size definitely does not fit all (eg, above my comparison of Dartmouth and Columbia). That is part of the beauty of today’s American college scene as there are so many exceptional college alternatives available. However, part of my frustration here on CC and elsewhere is that there is a preoccupation with a handful of top academic schools with long histories and high prestige and little thought/respect paid to other top schools all over the country that can provide a similar level of academics and then so much more. I am trying to spread that story and part of the differentiation with the other top academic schools is to reference the academic AND other realms that together determine the quality of an undergraduate experience. </p>
<p>The college search process is all about a search for fit, but so many students today seem preoccupied with a very narrow (and academically excellent!) group of schools. The reality that I see is that 1) there aren’t enough freshman places for all of the terrific students coming out of high school today; and 2) there really are some very, very good alternatives that can offer a different (and IMO in many cases) better undergraduate experience. Hopefully, students are expanding the circle of colleges that they are looking at and some of the less known, mostly non-Northeastern, colleges will be included. If they do the work and look at these schools, I suspect that they will like very much what they see. Still, I fully accept that the “balanced” schools are not for everybody (like your son) and that the individual fit is the key to finding four years of happiness.</p>
<p>Stanford and Duke are similar-2 top schools with top 10 athletic programs and national alumni.</p>
<p>Urban/Semi-Urban Schools with High Prestige
Columbia
U Penn
Brown
U Chicago
Wash U
Emory</p>
<p>Emory?</p>
<p>Would anyone consider Emory if they were choosing amongst the schools in this group?</p>
<p>Over Columbia and Penn.. unlikely... over Brown, Chicago, or WashU... absolutely.</p>
<p>^^ actually brown has a higher revealed preference than both columbia and penn.</p>
<p>washu and uchicago are a different story.</p>
<p>If by semi-urban you mean suburban i think you have to add northwestern to that list.</p>
<p>^^ Rice too.</p>
<p>Interesting, because I applied to Columbia (first choice) yet I did not apply to any other schools that Columbia was grouped with in that list.</p>