<p>My son (rising senior) thinks he wants to study computer science and/or physics. Many have told us that he needs to be at a University in order to have access to a variety of professors, resources and equipment (labs, computers,...), and be able to potentially take graduate level courses.</p>
<p>This makes sense, but I have seen the value of a small schools (individualized attention, small classes, etc.) and keep wondering if there are colleges out there that might be a great place for undergraduate study of these areas.</p>
<p>We visited one school with a good academic reputation that claimed to have a computer science major but when we looked at a course catalog, there was a very limited set of courses to choose from. </p>
<p>(he is top of his [small] class, 4.0uw, good scores, says that he doesn't want to be hot [as in sweaty <smile>], doesn't want urban school, prefers east coast or midwest)</smile></p>
<p>I think it is a mistake to rule out small schools at this stage, especially if your intuitive sense is that he may learn and thrive better in one. I know a student who is at Colby and has had excellent physics preparation and already landing internships that will make a strong grad school program open to her. Students often choose an interest in high school, then find the array of subjects they are exposed to by great small college teachers shifts their direction. Many small schools also have "combined" programs that let students move onto a uni for their final years and a joint degree (eg: at Columbia, CalTech, UW) Don't limit yourselves prematurely. Setting limits for money or distance (which means money) early on can make sense, but too many kids/families set "size" limits that rule out great options...</p>
<p>One way to stay small and still have physics and comp sci is to look at the engineering schools. WPI is tiny (and you can get good non-science courses through Clark), RPI is a little bigger, but still not that large. Not sure about size, but Rochester Institute of Technology and Case Western are other ones to look at.</p>
<p>LACs usually don't have "real" CS major, but something named "computational science" or "CS/Math". You may want to check out the colleges which have Engineering, like Swat, Harvey Mudd, Rose-Hulman: </p>
<p>The course selection will not be as impressive as in larger schools, and some courses may be offered in alternating years; but it's usually possible to arrange some sort of independent study if a student has some particular area of interest.</p>
<p>If your son is already taking post-AP courses in high school, it's quite possible he will want (and need) to take graduate level courses; in this case, it's safer to look at smaller universities (Dartmouth, Princeton) or at schools known for their excellent Honors programs (UMich, Penn State).</p>
<p>But I would not discount LACs on account of research and equipment; many LACs have great labs and pay a lot of attention to the development of their Science and computing resources. </p>
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The department offers a fairly traditional, extremely rigorous physics major and is proud of its high standards... The department has developed signature programs in laser and computational physics, and is developing signature programs in surface physics and nonneutral plasmas.
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</p>
<p>I am pretty sure that there are other LACs with excellent Physics departments (Reed comes to mind immediately, with their nuclear reactor). Lawrence is just an example of a top-notch Physics program at a strong (but probably not "elite" by CC standards) Midwestern college. You may read about some of the other programs at the same AAPT Task Force report.</p>
<p>The 3/2 programs that some LACs have are definitely worth considering for someone like this. Note this caveat (with which I have no direct experience, just reporting what I've heard): some students are quite loathe to make that move to the 2 years at the new school just when they would otherwise be entering senior year with all of their friends.</p>
<p>I wonder if some of the smaller/medium Universities, which have a LAC feel - to varying degrees - might be of interest: eg, Lehigh, Villanova, Santa Clara University... schools of that size.</p>
<p>Rice U is a great research U with a LAC feel (undergrad population around 3000), and tons of opportunities. He won't sweat if he stays inside August- end of September (lots of AC), and the campus is lovely, grassy and large, although in a city.</p>
<p>Working in physics usually means earning a PhD. Here are the top physics future-PhD-producing undergrad schools:
PhDs and Doctoral Degrees:
ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database</p>
<p>Number of Undergraduates:
ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database</p>
<p>Formula: Total PhDs divided by Total Grads, multiplied by 1000 </p>
<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period</p>
<p>1 California Institute of Technology 96
2 Harvey Mudd College 64
3 Massachusetts Institute of Technology 29
4 New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology 20
5 Reed College 13
6 Carleton College 13
7 Princeton University 13
8 University of Chicago 13
9 Rice University 13
10 Case Western Reserve University 9
11 Harvard University 9
12 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 9
13 Swarthmore College 9
14 Haverford College 8
15 Stevens Institute of Technology 8
16 Whitman College 8
17 Grinnell College 7
18 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology 7
19 Colorado School of Mines 7
20 Yale University 6
21 Williams College 6
22 University of Rochester 6
23 Amherst College 6
24 Goshen College 5
25 Cornell University, All Campuses 5
26 University of Dallas 5
27 Wabash College 5
28 Stanford University 5
29 Beloit College 5
30 University of California-Berkeley 5
31 Carnegie Mellon University 5
32 Johns Hopkins University 5
33 Hastings College 5
34 Lawrence University 5
35 Illinois Institute of Technology 5
36 Columbia University in the City of New York 4
37 Oberlin College 4
38 Monmouth College 4
39 Bryn Mawr College 4
40 Gustavus Adolphus College 4
41 Kalamazoo College 4
42 College of William and Mary 4
43 Earlham College 4
44 Worcester Polytechnic Institute 4
45 Pomona College 4
46 St Olaf College 4
47 Georgia Institute of Technology, Main Campus 4
48 Rhodes College 4
49 St John's University (Collegeville, MN) 3
50 Bates College 3
51 Macalester College 3
52 Brown University 3
53 Wesleyan University 3
54 Bethel College (North Newton, KS) 3
55 Brandeis University 3
56 Kenyon College 3
57 Hope College 3
58 St John's College (both campus) 3
59 Franklin and Marshall College 3
60 Bowdoin College 3
61 Washington University 3
62 Walla Walla College 3
63 Middlebury College 3
64 University of Missouri, Rolla 3
65 Drew University 3
66 Guilford College 3
67 Southern College of Seventh-Day Adventists 3
68 Moravian College 3
69 Clarkson University 3
70 Polytechnic University 3
71 Hamline University 3
72 Tougaloo College 3
73 Vassar College 2
74 Andrews University 2
75 University of California-San Diego 2
76 Lehigh University 2
77 College of Wooster 2
78 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 2
79 Wake Forest University 2
80 Duke University 2
81 Albion College 2
82 University of Virginia, Main Campus 2
83 Trinity University 2
84 University of Alabama in Huntsville 2
85 Benedictine College 2
86 University of Puget Sound 2
87 Michigan Technological University 2
88 Dartmouth College 2
89 Cooper Union 2
90 Pacific University 2
91 Florida Institute of Technology 2
92 Xavier University 2
93 Northwest Nazarene College 2
94 South Dakota School of Mines & Technology 2
95 Hendrix College 2
96 Bucknell University 2
97 Millsaps College 2
98 Southwestern University 2
99 Bethel College and Seminary, All Campuses 2
100 Wofford College 2
101 Wellesley College 2
<p>One of the foremost grads of Grinnell was the founder of Intel. They have a fantastic computer science program in part courtesy of his largesse and great physics. Maybe worth considering.</p>
<p>I am a proponent of LAC's for many students but had the same reservations as your son when my son began his college search. In many CS department the faculty resources were scant as were the course offerings and lab facilities. Because of these limitations the opportunity to develop a meaningful specialization in one aspect of CS is more problematic.</p>
<p>Our son eventually decided to attend RPI where he took coursework in the areas of AI and computer game development. This would have been impossible at the 4 LAC he was accepted by as was the wonderful internship he had in Pasadena, Ca.</p>
<p>
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I know a kid who majored in Physics at Williams. Didn't seem to hurt his chances. He is now in the Ph.D. program at MIT.
[/quote]
Williams has excellent Physics and Math departments that routinely send graduates to top PhD programs. I wouldn't say that it's a CS destination, but they do offer a CS major which many students use as a double major with Physics.</p>
<p>A friend's child is a physics major at Wes who's had all sorts of opportunities to work in labs and also do some theory work. In physics, at least, this isn't the only example I've heard of of undergrads getting a great education at LACs.</p>
<p>I'm a CS minor at a small LAC (Bryn Mawr). Our CS department is 4 faculty members small, but I have yet to hear complaints about a lack of resources. Apparently we have one of the best-equipped robotics labs for undergraduates world-wide, and there are plenty of funds to support student research. (A freshman casually mentioned that she would love to work with a humanoid robot. The department bought one and offered her a stipend of $4K so that she could be on campus for the summer to work with it.)</p>
<p>I have to admit that we don't have any hardware-related CS courses. But while there are no courses on systems engineering or computer architecture, we do have standard CS courses such as the theory of computation, compiler design, computer graphics and artificial intelligence. I'm not sure why someone would call this "not a "real" CS major."</p>
<p>In the end it's up to the individual student to decide. I am content with only 5 or 6 upper-level classes to choose from in any given semester, but some people might need 20 or 30 so not to feel restricted.</p>
<p>mathmom, our son had an internship at a computer game development company who had a big RPG project in development due for release later this year. Because it is a multiplatform game he was involved in a game development conundrum called streaming which involved sequencing uploading and downloading data to allow the seamless progression of the gaming program. He also worked on character reality integration which involved integration of algorithms utilizing blue screen action video and computerized character action scenes.</p>
<p>The project team numbered about 40 and our the company gave him assignments which seemed significant to me. The exit recommendations confirmed this and they seemed to be a significant aspect of his grad school application.</p>
<p>Again, I believe that this would have been impossible had he decided to enroll in any of the LAC's he was admitted to.</p>
<p>Sounds like an interesting project. I didn't even know there were any game companies located in Pasadena. I really enjoyed the time I spent there while dh was at Caltech for grad school.</p>
<p>b@rium, it might depend a little bit how much you come in already knowing. The reality is there is only so much time you have as an undergrad and so much room in the schedule. For most people you don't need a huge department. That said, what my son wanted was a big department with lots of choices. He's on track to get a BS in 3 years or an MS in 4. He was taking some 200 level courses as a freshman.</p>