<p>A good article on San Jose State University which has a very good engineering program and very strong in computer sciences.</p>
<p>Looks like quite a few Calif Students may be bailing to out of state schools</p>
<p>CRUD. I meant far fewer students. LOL can't edit the title .... sigh</p>
<p>Personally, I think increasing standards is a good thing. Perhaps more kids will be able to earn a degree in four years if they weren’t redoing high school course bcos they are not prepared for college-level work. But, OTOH, increasing standards should be rolled out over ~four years so this year’s seniors don’t get stuck mid-application.</p>
<p>Bluebayou, the point of the Cal State system was originally to give the opportunity to ALL California high school students to go to a four year university at a reasonable price. Raising the standards will prohibit many B/C students from pursuing a college degree in California without attending a community college first, where it is ALSO extremely difficult to get required classes in order to finish in 2 years. There are plenty of schools in California and in our country where higher standards are necessary and create an atmosphere of intellectual curiosity and ambition to learn on a much more sophisticated level, but the Cal States were never intended for that. It pains me to see so many “average” students - by that I mean average in the real world, not here on CC - being denied admission to schools that they should be able to attend.</p>
<p>It is for this reason that my S is applying OOS to large universities, where we will pay OOS tuition happily in order to avoid the 5-6 year plan that goes along with the Cal States, though at a 2.9 gpa, who knows if he could even get in at this point? It’s very sad.</p>
<p>^Well, isn’t that what the University of California system was originally intended for when it was created?</p>
<p>It’s what all public colleges and universities were created for. But one school can’t admit everyone, and some are managed and developed better than others, so they naturally become segregated into tiers. Many of yesterday’s schools for the everyman are today’s elites. Schools that didn’t exist long ago (e.g., community colleges) are today’s most affordable, we-admit-anyone options. It’s just the way things evolve.</p>
<p>This is disturbing, but not unexpected. Looks like admission to various majors will be competitive and not guaranteed as well even if admitted to the school.</p>
<p>They are giving priority to local students which sounds like they are making the best of a tough situation. I expect further cuts to public university systems around the country as state revenues continue to slide through FY 2010 and probably FY 2011. We could still be not even halfway through state budget cuts to public universities.</p>
<p>I guess what’s most disturbing to me about the Cal State situation is how rapidly its happened. Just 5 years ago, all of the schools in the system, except Cal Poly SLO and possibly SDSU were open and available to the majority of students, at least as a possibility. Sonoma State was barely on the map, and Cal State Long Beach was a safety for just about anyone in California. In just the past few years, due to budget problems within the system, a huge increase in applicants, and the crashing of the economy in general, the schools that were once within reach are now virtually impossible - GPA aside, most majors being impacted at many of the campuses. As far as the UC system, it has always attracted a higher quality of applicants, going back to when I was applying to college 30 years ago - though back then, all you needed to get into UCLA was a 3.0.</p>
<p>Community college is a very tedious and difficult road for many kids. Without the attraction of social activities, sports teams, and on campus life, its hard for many who are working and in school to stay motivated. I don’t know what the statistics are for completing community college and going on to a 4 year school, but I can tell you from my experience taking a few classes at a community college that its obvious that many students who start don’t finish. Just the availability of parking alone is enough to convince me that many drop out after a few weeks every semester.</p>
<p>Qwertykey: CA has a three tier public education system </p>
<p>At the top are the UC campuses which are research institutions that originally were the only Cal publics to grant graduate degrees. Now they are the only ones to grant doctorates. So in answer to your question, No the UCs were not created to provide the average student in CA with a college education. They require a 3.0 min UC gpa and that is not likely to get you into anywhere but UCM and maybe UCR. </p>
<p>CSUs as Elizabeth pointed out were originally created for the average to above average student. They were designed for students interested in teacher training, farming etc and their goal was to give any California kid with a 2.0 or better a place to achieve a higer education. They originally were State Colleges and didn’t grant Post Graduate degrees but now all campuses grant Masters Degrees</p>
<p>The California Community College system is the third tier. It was intended to be for everyone. It provides vocational training as well as granting AA degrees. Historically if you completed an AA at a CC in CA and satisfied the requirements you were guaranteed admittance into the UC system. I believe that the UC system has suspended these guarantees in the last couple of years. It’s sad</p>
<p>elizabethh is mourning the loss of accessible inexpensive higher education options for all of our kids and I am in total agreement with her. It is sad. The lines have blurred. CSUs are becoming more selective and as a result fewer kids have an in-state 4 year college experience to look forward to.</p>
<p>My twin daughters both had UC and CSU admissions last year. Both chose private, in part because overall it would be less expensive. </p>
<p>My son is just a freshman so I have no way of guessing what his college app list will be but at this point I am assuming that like elizabeth’s S he may be able to attend an OOS public less expensively than a CSU. As a CA native that just doesn’t seem right.</p>
<p>CSUs are supposed to be the admissions and financial safeties for the 2.5 and up CA high school grad. That seems to be becoming less and less likely.</p>
<p>I read a couple years back that 21% of community college students transfer to four year institutions.</p>
<p>vvs2010: was that in CA or nationwide?</p>
<p>elizabeth, I agree with everything you wrote except the “C” part. Earning C’s in college prep courses is EASY in most California public high schools today. Just show up and do a modicum of work, and a student will pass. And yes, community colleges are overflowing. But think about the savings that could be had at the Cal State level if it was not providing remedial education. Approximately 50% of the entering Frosh at CSU REQUIRE remediation in math and/or English. At some Cal State campuses, the number requiring remediation is over 90%! In a bankrupt state, this is totally illogical.</p>
<p>Such remediation is much more effectively – and less costly – performed at the community college level. If it was not performed at at CSU, such savings could be passed on to the community college. </p>
<p>But note, the article clearly states that 100% of all local residents WILL be accepted, which is still true for nearly every CSU. The only exceptions (of which I’ve read) are SLO and SD.</p>
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<p>Unfortunately, we can no longer afford it. IMO, it’s time to recognize that fact and make appropriate adjustments.</p>
<p>We can’t afford it because California’s budget is a train wreck.</p>
<p>I am totally with you bluebayou! I had never really thought about how much it costs the state when kids drop/flunk out of college for whatever reason until this year when SDSU changed their admissions policy. D goes to SDSU and I can’t believe how many of her friends have left the school! It had nothing to do with the school, but with the kids floundering around, not knowing what they wanted to major in or “playing” too much and not taking school seriously. Due to the extreme budget cuts, it is only makes sense that CSU/UC’s admit kids that they feel will be successful in college and hopefully will be able to graduate in 4 years. There are so many factors that play into this of course. It is really a shame though for the HS seniors this year because they had little prior notice of the admission changes. That being said, the colleges had little time to prepare because of such a late budget, not only are students affected, but many jobs were lost as well.</p>
<p>The remedial courses are an issue, I agree, but lets take that back to the high schools that are not preparing our college track students to succeed at the college level. At my S’s top ranked hs, the high achieving AP/honors students, like my D ('08) are given excellent opportunities and guidance. They are treated like the jewels that they are - and go on to attend excellent schools for the most part. The students with serious LDs and those on the vocational track are also given many opportunities, guidance and specialized classes that are tailored for their needs. Its the students like my S, the B/C, middle tier kids, who are lost in the shuffle. </p>
<p>The local kids are guaranteed admission to their Cal States, but in some cases those aren’t desirable, or are lacking the “college experience” that many kids are looking for. </p>
<p>On another note, I am so glad to see that there are others who are as concerned as I am about higher level education for lower achieving students or late bloomers. You may think this is only about my S, but I feel passionately about this for ALL average kids. So many are being lost in the shuffle, starting in elementary school and moving up. Many look to sports to make their mark, and we all know how that usually turns out. But I digress…</p>
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<p>Perhaps, just perhaps that some of those high schools don’t care bcos they don’t have to care. The know with absolute certainty that they t can pass on the unprepared kid to the next level – very sad. Perhaps if they knew that such kids would no longer be accepted, they’d try harder to make sure everyone can write.</p>
<p>There is a HUGE cost to the state and to fellow students (who have more limited class choices) by remediating at the Cal State level.</p>
<p>Anecdote: I volunteer and tutor math at an inner city HS. The girl was doing well, B/B+ in Alg I but her HS GC recommended against taking Alg II bcos the GC said she should take “fun” classes in HS instead – Alg II could wait for college. My point is that advice and attitude should be unacceptable, but if the HS has zero repercussions, nothing will change.</p>
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<p>So…there is just not enough space in SLO or SD for all those who would like to attend. If not increasing standards, do you suggest a lottery? How about ability to pay? What would you recommend? The campuses just can’t keep expanding, can they?</p>
<p>No, I don’t think a lottery or any other idea is the solution. The schools do need to keep raising their standards and admitting higher and higher levels of students because that is the trajectory they are on and there’s no turning back now. I think the evolution of the campuses will continue, and schools that are currently less desirable will become more desirable as time goes on - ie: Sonoma State, CSULB, which are now much more selective than just a few years ago. Our current hs students are unfortunately caught in an earthquake of change and will feel the repercussions of the financial and demographic changes in our state. </p>
<p>I think the story you told about the student you tutor is the perfect example of what happens to those in the middle. Its easier to steer them towards less challenging classes. When she gets to college, she too will need the remedial help that is clogging the system.</p>
<p>It is a very complicated and difficult situation, and I have no answers for you, bluebayou - just a lot of questions.</p>
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<p>D1 works in the college counseling office at her large public school. The stories she tells make you want to cry. For instance, a senior came in repeatedly, trying to pick up a fee waiver for the SAT. It wasn’t given to him in time to make the deadline. I asked D1 if we could pay for his fees. She said it wouldn’t make any difference, since the student’s GC put him in the wrong math class, and he is now ineligible for Cal State. And this was one of the “good” students, with a GPA over 3.0 and the gumption to apply on his own without nagging. Other students come in who are utterly unaware they need to take SATs, or that they have to apply to CSUs within a certain time frame. These kids can’t go to out of state schools; they have barely enough money to live at home and go in-state. Few options, little guidance from any of the adults in their lives, it’s going to take a significantly larger-than-average amount of determination and self-discipline for these kids to push ahead. </p>
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<p>We build more K-12 schools when the population expands. By the same logic, there should be more room created within UC/CSU/CCs to serve an expanded population. I understand that that’s financially impossible right now. And I agree that it’s a waste of money to have students taking remedial coursework at UCs or CSUs. No answers on how to keep this from happening.</p>
<p>Just heard on ABC news - CSU applications up 53% over last year this time, with 263,000 applications already received.</p>
<p>“Other students come in who are utterly unaware they need to take SATs, or that they have to apply to CSUs within a certain time frame.”</p>
<p>While I think this is disgraceful on the part of the overseeing GC, I would also ask-- where are the parents?</p>