CTY programs

Parents Forum
1

<p>My 8th grader's SAT scores are in, 550V and 610M, which should qualify her to take math and science courses through the JHU Center for Talented Youth program. Our school pushes the kids to take the tests to qualify but I don't know anyone who has actually taken courses through them. Had she scored a 560V she would have been able to take their writing course which I think would be more useful for her. Anyway, I'm curious if this is a worthwhile program or is it more of a money maker for JHU? </p>

<p>Are there normal smart kids involved or are most of the kids really, really smart? She's only had half a year of Algebra I, I'd love to give her some enrichment but I don't want her to be in way over her head if the other kids are well advanced in comparison to her.</p>

<p>I read the SAT forum here this morning. Some of the kids are practically suicidal, with scores most kids would be thrilled to have. I'd love to have advice from other parents on how to nurture and encourage without turning a kid into a basket case. So far, my daughter has been quite nonchalant about everything, but I know her peers have been discussing having taken the SAT and the pressure may be building. For those whose children participated in CTY or TIP, did you find your child came home more tuned in to the competitive aspects of school? She's a happy kid right now, who could probably use some extra enrichment, but I don't want to see her turn into a "I got a 1550, I want to die" type student.</p>

2

<p>Our D is taking the CTY writing this year (9th grade) and it has been a great experience for her. She's learned a lot, and had fun doing it. I don't see any changes in her attitudes toward competition from the course (she's pretty laid-back to begin with). I don't know about the science stuff at CTY; we haven't done it yet. But the program has been outstanding.</p>

3

<p>MomOFour, I am assuming you're talking about the summer programs and not the correspondence-type courses. If so, drop me a private message (PM) or email -- my two sons have been involved in CTY summer courses for 6 years. This summer my youngest will take his last year of CTY. It has been fantastic for them in every way. My older, who was mathematically gifted and a motivated self-started, accellerated his math curriculum by 3 years using summer Individualized Math Studies (which for him was perfect), and my younger made his first real friends at CTY while taking courses he really enjoyed. Far better and much more positive than any other summer camp experience, and nowhere near the competitive and stressful situation you seem worried about.</p>

<p>Seriously, write to me. I have tons of experience with this. (And all with math/science courses, too.) Short answer: if it's affordable for your family, I'd go for it.</p>

4

<p>Momoffour:</p>

<p>These are pretty good scores!</p>

<p>There are several kinds of programs: distance learning, CAA and CTY summer programs. CAA is slightly easier, and requires somewhat lower scores.
My S did CTY summer programs in science and asbolutely loved them. He started in the junior program after 6th grade (he took the PLUS test) then in the senior program after 7th grade. He took fast-paced high school science courses that prepared him very well for AP classes later on. Not everyone wants to plunge straight into these more advanced level classes; some of his friends took the introductory courses in lab sciences and also had a blast. Non-science kids have taken courses which are also highly recommended, such as "crafting the essay" and existentialism. We have found the instructors and counsellors to be excellent.
As for algebra 1, by the end of school, your D should have completed it, so she should be on a par with a lot of the kids who attend CTY. Without being exactly laid-back, my S is not a competitive kid; CTY did not change his attitude in that respect at all. But it was great for him to be among kids who cared about learning and thought that learning is fun rather than a form of purgatory.
Every summer, when parents come to pick up their kids, there are tearful scenes, especially among the older students who will not be able to return (the "nevermores").
The summer programs are held on college campuses, so they also provide students with a chance to experience dorm life (and to do their own laundry :) )</p>

5

<p>Both my kids did CTY for years until they aged out; was a fantastic experience along every dimension. It is not a competitive environment at all. Apart from the subject matter, which is truly taught in a way to capture the imagination and attention of kids who may be bored during the year, the social elements are invaluable. Both sobbed buckets when we picked them up; both lived all year to go back to see their friends, favorite RA's, etc.</p>

<p>The method of instruction will likely be different from what your child is used to. If she's accustomed to busy-work and endless repetition, this will be like heaven to her.</p>

<p>If she's not interested in going don't push it, but I am so thankful that a math teacher at my son's school called to encourage us to consider it.</p>

6

<p>My daughter attended TIP for three summers (at Davidson and then Duke), and they were among the best experiences she's ever had. She's always tested somewhat higher in math than verbal, but she decided to take verbal based courses each time, because they offered things she knew she could not get at her middle or high school. Because the TIP courses aren't graded, the focus of the students is purely on the content of the courses (the 3 she took were: Drama:Shakespeare, Sophocles and Arthur Miller; Social Psychology; Law and Political Speech). She definitely did not come home more obsessed with high test scores, although she did come away with a realization that what were considered stellar scores at her school were just average at TIP. That was a nice reality check, which has served her well.</p>

<p>One of her biggest concerns before she attended the first summer was whether it would be filled by awkward geniuses with no social skills and poor hygiene (a very middle school concern). She was pleasantly surprised. There were plenty of kids just like her (fairly extroverted, socially well adjusted, cheerleader, soccer player, musician, etc.). She also grew to appreciate the shy, awkward types and made a number of good friends among them whom she probably would not have gotten to know at her high school. She is still in touch with a number of the friends she made. It really was a wonderful experience.</p>

7

<p>Same here, my son went to CTY for 3 summers and met lots of kids like him. He took a writing course, a genetics course and an engineering course. The course he least liked was engineering but he had a great time meeting other kids from all over the world in all 3 sessions. His horizons widened after going that first year, meeting people from Kentucky, Texas, (he is a New Jersey boy and at that time, hadn't travelled widely in the US), Hongkong, Shanghai, Japan etc. He's kept in touch with these kids. </p>

<p>The writing course was unlike any he had taken in HS, a lot more creative, a lot more focused on the creative aspect of writing and a lot less on 'use semi-colons everywhere' or 'have a bibliography' kind of thing.</p>

<p>It did not turn him into a "I got a 1550, I want to die" kind of kid. </p>

<p>In his course selections, his direction was always to take courses in different things to see what he liked. That's why the disparate course choices. None of them are offered in high school per se, or at least in the format in which it is taught.</p>

<p>And by the way, if he gets the job, he is trying to go back there as an RA this summer. The choice is between that and a volunteer work that he wants.</p>

8

<p>Momof4, I like your post! It offers a healthy dose of skepticism and a realization that some students are totally stressed out by this college admissions thing.</p>

<p>Our son qualified for CTY in 7th grade and we attended a one day, non-academic program in P'ton. It was okay. However he did not express any particular interest in their summer programs. He preferred to work summers and have fun with his friends. However from my time spent here, it seems that most studends attending enjoyed them a lot. Since I tend to believe that exaggeration is a common problem with anonymous mb's, you may want to take that observation with a grain of salt.</p>

<p>I suspect CTY is a money maker for JHU but I don't believe that this is the reason they run the program either. I am not so cynical as to believe that their primary mission is anything but giving exceptional students an opportunity to challenge themselves academically.</p>

<p>I suspect that you will gently encourage your daughter to give it a go and I think that this is a good approach. I am sure you will be fine with either a yes or no answer.</p>

<p>One reason that should probably not factor into the decision is the hope that this will help her in college admissions several years from now. If you believe the talk of most adcoms, they give little or no advantage on things of this nature vs. something like a summer job. Other people may think otherwise. I view it as an angst thing-I gotta do this-I gotta do that or I won't get into Princevard! You seem to have that situation well under control.</p>

<p>I just thought of one other thing. Do you or your school know of other students who have attended a CTY course. Perhaps you can talk to them directly and get first hand info?</p>

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<p>My son took CTY courses for two summers and enjoys them immensely. It is a very good program.</p>

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<p>My son, whose 8th grade scores were similar to your daughter's, took a TIP philosophy (Duke's talent search program) after 7th grade, and a CTY existentialism course after 8th grade. He loved the experiences and would have done more, but we could not afford to send him again.</p>

<p>My strong advice is to let your daughter make up her mind whether she wants to do these courses. All smart kids do not want to spend 8 hours a day for 3 weeks during summern intensely studying. In fact, I think, that most smart kids would run in the opposite direction from such a program (as was the case of my older son, who had similar scores, loved learning, but liked to learn only completely on his own terms!).</p>

<p>If your daughter would enjoy being around lots of students who share her interests, then (since her scores qualify her), she is appropriate for the program. </p>

<p>Please, though, let her choose the course to take based on her own interests, not what she or you think would help her longterm. CTY and similar programs provide rare opportunities for students to delve deeply into subjects that they love, and to be in a peer group with similar interests.</p>

<p>My son had always had strongest grades in math and science, and always had had a strong, demonstrated interest in those areas. He loved reading, but was a very slow, awkward writer (despite having high verbal scores). I was shocked when he chose "philosophy" and "existentialism" as his first choice courses. I was sure that he would be an engineer, and would want to benefit from the chances that CTY offered for him to delve deeply into science and math, something my husband and I could not help him with since those aren't our fields.</p>

<p>Anyway, S loved his courses even though it was clear to him that his writing and analytical skills were behind those of many of the other students. When he came home, he showed me what they had been expected to read and write: He was reading things like law school texts, and he was expected to write research papers on subjects that looked like things for college seniors at top colleges. </p>

<p>Despite his seeing that there were many students way ahead of him, he still had a wonderful time, and particularly appreicated the chance to discuss with bright, informed peers issues that were important to him. He also seems to have benefited by seeing how far ahead some students his age were. That did not serve to discourage him, but seemed to inspire him to aspire to a higher level of performance in the work that he produces (regardless of what kind of grades he earns in his high school).</p>

<p>I agree with others that your D should not do the program thinking it will help her get into college. Probably the only types of colleges that would be impressed by such programs are the ones in tier 2 and below, but, frankly, they already will be very impressed by your D's scores (which right now are at the level of their incoming freshmen). The colleges like HPYS will not be impressed because most students at such colleges qualify for programs like CTY.</p>

<p>What particularly impresses colleges like HPYS are when students use their own creativity to pursue their intellectual and EC passions. Such schools aren't impressed by opportunities that essentially parents purchase for their kids (even if the kids need high achievements to qualify for the opportunities).</p>

<p>The benefit of going to CTY and similar programs is your daughter's being able to learn more about something she cares about, and her being able to be around peers who care about things she cares about, which is a huge benefit for kids who may have passionate interests in subjects that their local peers find boring.</p>

<p>My S still keeps in contact with at least one student whom he met several years ago at CTY. That's how strong the ties can be. In fact, one mom told me that throughout her kid's best friends ended up being CTY campers even though he only saw them over the summer. In fact, he ended up at college with some of them.</p>

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<p>Originaloog may well be correct about the limited value of the one-day seminars run by CTY. We felt that to be a real possibility, so did not sign up for any. For the rest, I take exception to his "shoot from the hip" comments (not the first time he's done so).</p>

<p>The OP asked:
"Anyway, I'm curious if this is a worthwhile program or is it more of a money maker for JHU? "
I'm sure it must be a money-maker for JHU. It does not make the program worthless.
I responded to the first part of the question: "Is it a worthwhile program?"</p>

<p>First, let me state categorically that I see no reason for a kid to attend an academic camp as opposed to working, volunteering, traveling, doing sports, music (my older S went to music camp for 4 summers) except for the joy of learning. For those who love learning, especially at a faster pace than they can in regular school and without all the busywork, an experience such as CTY is heaven. It IS expensive, and there are other, less expensive summer programs (check threads dealing with summer programs; there was a recent one on this forum).</p>

<p>I ( me myself, moi) have attended three ends of CTY sessions. Originaloog has not. I have seen kids crying buckets; to me, it is a sure sign that they loved the program. My S did not cry ( I have not seen him cry since he was a baby). But he did beg to come back and would have gone again a fourth time (he attended another even more intensive program instead).</p>

<p>None of the posters here have mentioned CTY as being good prep for college admission. I have--in regard to doing laundry, not gilding the transcript.</p>

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<p>My son attended CTY for two years and I echo all of the positive comments of other parents posted above. As far as being a money-making operation, I have copied below the relevant information from the CTY website. It is a non-profit organization, and offers scholarships to low income students who would not otherwise be able to attend. In fact, one of my son's fellow CTY students was from an extremely rural, isolated, and deprived area of our state, and was on full scholarship at CTY. The fact that a program charges tuition to parents who can afford it does not negate its worth or mean that it is some kind of "scam". It is one of the few organizations to which my husband and I make a donation each year, as we appreciate its benefits to my son and to other students with similar interests and abilities who may not be able to afford to attend without financial assistance.</p>

<p>From the website:
"CTY is a self-supporting, not-for-profit unit of The Johns Hopkins University. Most of its revenue is derived from tuition and fees. Alumni, parents, foundations, and corporations have generously donated additional funding at the rate of approximately $3,000,000 per year. Most of this money has been used to expand scholarship opportunities to qualifying children from low-income families. CTY spends about $.10 to raise $1.00. It is a 501c(3) organization, making gifts tax deductible."</p>

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<p>S went off to CTY/TIP as a laid back kid, and came back the same way.</p>

<p>When it comes to colleges, the only thing that I think that CTY/TIP taught him was that he really enjoys small classes with great teachers, and he enjoys being around bright students who are very enthusiastic about learning. This doesn't mean that he has set his sites on HPYS or die. In fact, he does not plan to apply to HPYS. He does, however, want to go to a college where academic is stressed, not, for instance, partying, football fanaticism or Greek life.</p>

<p>S has done some studying to prep for the SAT, but never has been obsessed about getting extremely high scores. In fact, he has been less test-obsessed than was his older brother, who refused to go to CTY/TIP. Both got the same Commended-level scores on the PSAT. Older S was disappointed and angry. Younger S was happy.</p>

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<p>Thanks for all the great responses. I didn't mean to imply it was a scam sort of deal at all. I guess my thoughts were more about the large numbers of kids who participate in the talent search, which generates a lot of revenue, without actually participating in the programs. I'm glad to read that people felt the programs aren't an afterthought to the talent search. </p>

<p>I don't see college admission as a factor at all in this. One benefit I can imagine is that it's an opportunity for kids to find what sparks their interests. I don't think she needs to accelerate beyond the curriculum she has planned to do next year, but I can see where super-bright kids could benefit from that. She's not at that level. She does find her science class to be too simple and complains that she has to teach her lab partners everything, which is frustrating. Next year, they split by ability and she'll be in honors courses for everything. I'll let her look at the CTY summer catalog and see what she thinks.</p>

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<p>One warning: Those classes fill up very fast. I had been forwarned about this by a parent whose kid got completely shut out the first year. The day that the catalogue arrived, I had S pick out his course selections, and then I Fedexed them the next day. Don't be surprised if she doesn't get her first course options. Tell her to be open minded, but to not put on her list any course she would not wish to attend.</p>

<p>The Hopkins CTY fills up fastest. Loyola Marymount, which S attended, filled up slower, particularly for the courses later in the summer.</p>

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<p>I'm not sure of what you mean when you say the Talent Search generates revenues. If I remember correctly, the students sign up for the SATs through the College Board and designate the Talent Search as the score recipient. How would this generate revenues for CTY? Or maybe I am incorrect in my recollection, as my son took in in 7th grade and he is a college junior now so it was 8 years ago.</p>

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<p>MotherOfTwo is right. The revenues for taking the SAT go to CB (so what else is new? :) ).</p>

<p>I also echo NSM about classes filling up fast. We found that it's easier to sign up for the August session; some campuses also fill faster than others. There are quite a few science courses that are not designed to accelerate kids through the curriculum but to expand on it. If --and only if--your D is interested in doing a CTY session, she could take one of those. You and she should know that it is intense, though lots of fun. But some kids think this is the best way to spend their summer. My kid went from intense to even more intense--and found that several veterans of CTY had done the same thing (and there were also crying scenes at the end).</p>

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<p>My son did not start CTY until he was entering 9th grade and attended for two years. After 11th grade, he attended our state's Governor's School for the Sciences which was definitely more intense than CTY (and was also FREE to those accepted). I also remember the crying scenes at both programs, and my son still keeps in touch with people from both programs. (Instant Messaging helps the kids keep in touch with people so much more easily than we could in h.s. and college.) Another point I would like to add is that I am not sure if I agree that CTY does not help in college admissions for all students (although that is not the primary reason my son chose to attend and students should not attend simply to boost admissions chances if they are not interested). I think it depends on the school they attend - at our school, the curricular and extracurricular opportunities for students interested and talented in science and math were very limited, so this was a good way for my son to enrich his academic background and to show colleges that he was interested in higher level academics than his school provided. For other students who attend magnet school or exceptional public or private schools which may provide more advanced or enriched curriculum or opportunities, other ways of spending the summer (non-academic) may be more appropriate. I think that, for my son, showing interest in learning beyond the school curriculum through CTY probably helped in gaining admission to the Governor's School, which in turn helped him in gaining admission to college.</p>

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<p>re:money-making-- we know someone on the Board of Directors of CTY and the program is most definitely a money loser. CTY does research on the learning needs of talented kids, has experts working on curriculum development, does longitudinal studies on the academic paths taken by students gifted in math vs. verbal (or both), etc. They do extensive fund-raising to allow low income kids to participate; many large corporations (Goldman Sachs is one) fund several scholarships every year to try and help kids in communities with no real role models attend and see other smart kids.</p>

<p>The program is expensive, no question. For us, it was a life-saver. Just as our son hit the middle school years of "i hate homework, I don't like to read, my teacher is an idiot", he met CTY which turned him around completely. In his home school, boys didn't read fiction, boys were good at sports, boys acted out in class. At CTY, there didn't seem to be gender differences; girls took engineering, boys took philosophy, everyone respected and admired the very cool and dedicated instructors. The classes he took weren't a great fit with his school curriculum so we never tried to get credit or anything... but it showed him another way of learning, and introduced him to significantly more challenging material than at his own school. He also got to be in an environment where the "cool kids" were also the smart kids....</p>

<p>I know lots of people who want their kid to take the SAT for the Talent search as a way to validate their own feeling that their kid is "gifted", and then use it as leverage with their school as to why their kid needs enrichment, etc. Our kids did fine in school, but we took advantage of this fantastic program to provide the enrichment. Both of our kids had roommates from overseas at some point which was a learning experience in and of itself....</p>

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<p>Another addendum to NSM's "they fill up fast" warning: There is a formula by which CTY orders summer program applicants to assign classes, it is NOT first come, first served. Students are encouraged STRONGLY to put down ALL classes they'd be willing to take, in rank order, and all sessions and locations they'd be willing to attend, and to apply as soon as possible. (2nd session is usually easier to get into than 1st, and some locations do not fill up as fast.)</p>

<p>Early applicants (postmarked/online submission by FEB. 12th!) get first crack.
Within that group, students are ordered by:
Returning students, ranked by test scores, then
First-time participants, ranked by test scores.</p>

<p>The algorithm goes to the first student on the list, assigns the first selection they've indicated, and moves on to the next student on the list. If there is still a spot in a student's first-choice class, session, and location when the computer gets to them, they'll be assigned there, otherwise the algorithm moves on to the second choice on the student's list, and so on. If the student did not indicate any course, session, and location that still has spots by the time the computer gets to them, they are sent a "Sorry" letter and designated as "unassigned". (With the option of changing to a spot that's still available after the other applicants have been assigned. It is in the student's best interest to indicate ALL possible acceptable combinations on their application.) Early applicants are notified of their assignment in March. The second wave of applicants must postmark/submit online by Apr. 2, and the same process happens with them as with the early group, using any available spots; they are notified in late April. If there are still spots available in May, they are listed on the CTY website and unassigned students can request them.</p>

<p>It is far better to submit by the Feb. deadline if the student wants to attend and has a preference for courses (or if your summer plans only allow one of the two sessions to be under consideration). Note that there are not a lot of locations on the west coast; we've sent younger S east twice now, and it's been a good experience of a different kind for him.</p>

<p>If your D finds some courses that interest her, MotherOFour, I hope she has a great time! (And yes, NSM, we did the online MyCTY registration the day after it became available this year. My S is hoping to be at Loyola Marymount again this summer, session 2: yours?)</p>