Curious about how others are feeling about "canceling" student loans

UBC has some fairly large dorms, presumably for first year students who are from more remote parts of BC (or other provinces or other countries) who are not within commuting range, though its location does put a substantial part of the BC population in commuting range. Location within large population centres puts many of the major Canadian universities in commute range of a substantial part of the population.

While that may be true to some extent, a more important factor is the size of these universities relative to the national population. University of Toronto has about 73k undergraduates, while Canada has about 36 million people. So 1 out of 493 people in Canada is a University of Toronto undergraduate. In contrast, Harvard has about 7k (College) or 10k (including Extension School) undergraduates, while the US has about 328 million people, which means that about 1 out of about 47k people is a Harvard College undergraduate, and about 1 out of 33k is a Harvard (including Extension School) undergraduate.

So University of Toronto does not have any need to be super selective in terms of trying to distinguish between numerous applicants who are showing near-maximum ordinary academic stats, and it is also much more accessible to a wider swath of Canadian high school graduates, compared to Harvard.

China and India do have large populations, so “rest of the world” necessarily includes them (especially on a population-weighted basis). However, most on these forums would probably not want to use them as a model, given the extreme competitiveness for the most desired universities (at least in part due to the large national populations, and also due to university prestige obsession), and the use of a single standardized test to determine competitive admission ranking. Note that both countries also have lower percentages of the population with bachelor’s degrees than the US.

Some of the other country examples may not fit the models you are looking for. For example, Germany starts tracking students into university-bound versus non-university vocational tracks starting relatively early (what would be middle school age in the US).

What you are probably looking for is the state of state university growth, broad access, and low cost in the US from the 1950s to the 1980s, but presumably without the limitations that minorities and women faced then (particularly in the earlier part of the era).

Regarding the apparently bits of health care discussion floating around here, there is some linkage to educational costs. Because the US traditionally uses employers to purchase health care insurance for employees, the ever increasing cost of health care is a disincentive against hiring more regular employees (particularly at lower or moderate pay levels), as opposed to part time contractors without health care insurance benefits. Of course, one of the contributors to higher health care costs is that health care workers need high pay for their professions to be financially doable after going into hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt for their education.

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Not sure if by “here” you mean this site. If you do, I agree with you at least with respect to certain people. There are a number of people here who essentially believe there are 20 undergrad universities in the US that are any good. And 14 law schools. Although those people are a very small minority here, you would never know given the number of threads dedicated to talking/obsessing about those institutions.

But that isn’t the case for the majority of people who visit this site. And it isn’t even close to true for the vast, vast majority of people who live in the real world.

Its my understanding that this isn’t how many countries work in terms of who goes to college. There are tracks to go to college with those being determined often times at early ages with kids from families with more money having an advantage.

I have several good friends who are doctors and they often say the same thing. Must be something covered in the physician literature and conferences. As I am quick to point out to them, looking around at their big/expensive houses, luxury cars in the garage, luxury trips and number of kids put through full pay private high schools and colleges, they have more than caught up. :slight_smile:

People graduating from the same university who have paid the same tuition while there but with different degrees often earn very different salaries. If the cost of college was relevant that wouldn’t be the case.

Pharmacists have high costs for school but salaries in many parts of the country are decreasing.

Issue is more supply and demand than costs of obtaining various degrees. Doctors have done a great job of limiting increases in supply. Pharmacists not so much (gluts in certain parts of the country as more schools opened).

As an aside to the college discussion with respect to healthcare costs: You rarely see any discussion of physician salaries when talking about the high healthcare costs. In recent years, the high cost of education is being tossed out there almost as a way of heading the issue off at the pass. But pretty much everyone pays for the costs of their education when post-secondary education is required. Not unique to doctors.

If we repaid/canceled all existing educational debt of doctors, reimbursed undergrad costs for anyone starting/graduating from med school and paid for med school but at the same time reduced doctor salaries to what they are in say Germany, we could reduce our healthcare costs substantially. Doubt the AMA will be on board though. LOL

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Good point. I have relatives who are physicians in Europe… the “specialists” (including high paying ones- which require multiple fellowships for the equivalent of Board Certification in their own country) are paid at about the level of GS-13 if they were federal employees in the US. The primary care physicians (whether pediatric or gerontologist) earn less.

No fancy cars, no big houses. They live like well educated government employees- which is for the most part what they are.

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We had a German exchange student several years ago. Both of her parents are doctors in Germany. Based on conversations with her and what my daughter saw the two times she stayed with her family, they were very much middle/upper middle class. She noted that while her older brother was at university, the family had to trim their budget a little to allow them to pay for her brother’s living expenses.

She went to visit one of my daughter’s friends whose father is a doctor. She couldn’t believe the house they lived in and the rest of their lifestyle.

Fast forward to today and the exchange student is in Heidelberg University studying to be a doctor. She is looking at practicing in the US. We told her if she can get a residency at our local hospital (nationally known) we would be happy to have her live with us. After that she would be on her own. LOL

Of course, if she does get a US residency that leads to US medical practice, she will be in the best of both worlds financial situation – lower cost education in Germany, but higher pay in the US after residency.

I find that many doctors favor conspicuous consumption and don’t save much for retirement. Perhaps they feel they can do it because their job is largely recession proof and has no specific retirement age, or perhaps they feel the need for a reward after working so hard through medical school and residency. It’s pretty common for doctors to stretch loan payments as long as possible.

Some specialties certainly do quite well, but for non-specialists being a doctor just provides a comfortable living if budgeting money properly for retirement . There are certainly other career paths that provide a better ROI after considering the cost of medical school and typical loan interest. I know a couple of doctors who actively discouraged their kids from going to medicine because of the cost and aggravation.

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Doctors file for bankruptcy at higher rates than most other professionals and that will only grow given the soaring cost of medical school.

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A lot of people favor conspicuous consumption over saving for retirement. That isn’t limited to doctors. And depending on your interest rate and your return on your investments, stretching loan payments as long as possible makes sense. I know a lot of people who could repay their mortgage in full (or certainly well before maturity) but their investments are outpacing their mortgage interest.

Of the friends I have who are doctors, each one of them has at least one kid in medical school (and one is about to have 2 with more still in college/high school who likely will be doctors as well). One of them has 4 kids. Oldest 2 are same age as my kids so we were discussing colleges, majors, etc for each. His oldest was headed to undergrad with an idea of med school after graduation. Couple weeks after H.S. graduation, he was pulled off waitlist at 6 year BS/MD program and started that a couple weeks later. Starts his residency this fall.

Second kid was thinking about something other than medicine when he started college. Having talked with him, I told his dad that I thought he would become a doctor because while you can do better than doctor $$ (and that was definitely his goal) there are more risks with that approach. He is trying to decide now where he will start medical school in the fall.

I know a lot of people who discourage their kids from following their career path. There is an element of the grass is always greener without a doubt. But that isn’t limited to doctors. And like I said, I know plenty who are encouraging their kids to follow their lead into medicine.

Of the 4 options from the doctor’s perspective, German financing for school and US practice is the best one. Next best one is US financing for school and US practice. Followed by German funding for school and German practice. Worst by far would be US financing for school and German practice.

Reverse that in terms of whats better for society.

US financing for school and German practice would probably lead to a shortage of physicians. German financing for school and German practice would probably be the best for society out of the various options.

Perhaps it is not a coincidence that primary care physicians in the US are heavy with immigrants who did their medical school in home countries where it is inexpensive to the student. The US physicians probably try for the highest paying specialties due to the pressure of $400,000+ of debt.

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This says the average medical school debt for class of 2019 was $200,000.

Pharmacy school debt at $172k. Career income significantly less.

Vet school debt at $150k. Career income even worse. In many respects, vet school is the US financing and German practice model. Yet vet school apps were up 19% this year.

This has medical school debt at $242k.

Well – we have a vast, vast college-application-prep industry that begs to differ, and tens of thousands of teens all over the country annually who’re emoting hard into their laptop cameras about whether or not they’re getting into their favorite Ivy/SLAC/etc. There’s an incredible amount of money in that prep industry, and I know because I’ve had some of it. It’s not all Beverly Hills sending the money there. (Funny enough, after I saw that Varsity Blues doc I realized it had never even occurred to me to sell the ability to answer all the questions right.) My point is that Canadians don’t attach the same importance to The Right School, mainly because they’re almost all state schools anyway and you don’t get the same narrative or reality about whether you’ve got much chance depending on whether or not you’ve gotten into some expensive citadel of privilege and concentrated power.

As for the dorms, UBC is a school that markets pretty hard to international students (as Canadian unis go) and I’m sure you’re aware that Vancouver has a large Chinese population. On the whole, though, I don’t find that Canadian universities are interested in creating some sort of Dorm Life Experience like you see here for all the students, and the usual pattern seems to be “well, if you want, we do have some dorms around here somewhere…right, I suppose you…oh, I see you’ve found our brochure. There’s a one-year limit. I think mostly students just find arrangements, somehow?”

Re tracks and tracked admission vs. easy-to-get-in: yes, I think we were over that earlier in the thread. Because it seems unlikely culturally that Americans would go for German-style tracking, the latter seems preferable to. The point is that the model has been around a long time, lots of people use it, and I think there are good reasons to give it a go here. But then I also don’t think that a year or two and then dropping out is useless. Useless in terms of having a degree, yes, but not useless in terms of education.

No disrespect to the 2+ billion in China and India; I just don’t know their models. What you say mirrors what my students say, especially about the top 50 in China and wow I’ve seen some wreckage from families going through medieval torture life regimes to get the kids on the right track for those schools.

The midcentury state-U model also works fine, and has the advantage of being familiar, though you’re still left with the expensive campus-wonderland/Olympic-pavilion problem. If the worry is that much cheaper college suddenly means an explosion of college student population (which I don’t anticipate, but just say), then you can just throw the lever toward that by saying cool, we’ll build some more lecture halls, but we’re done with dorms and honestly this athletic thing can go be an affiliated franchise if it wants to, it’s not our concern and we don’t have “athletic scholarships” anymore. Feel free to toss a ball around on this quad here. Or a park, public parks are good too. Local field mebbe.

Glad someone else picked up the HCW-loans ball and ran. I think the feds stopped allowing students to borrow up to the sky for healthcare professions, but maybe that’s wrong.

This is not all that different from the common pattern at many state flagship universities in the US, where frosh from out of the area commonly live in the dorms first year, then leave to nearby off-campus housing. Of course, UBC’s location puts it in commuting range of many of the province’s students, so many of the first year students there need not find their own housing (dorm or otherwise) at all. But that is not unlike US state flagships located in their states’ major metro areas to put much of their states’ populations in commuting range (on the other hand, some states’ flagships are located in places where few are in commuting range, decreasing access).

The 1950s-1980s state university expansion era did not have particularly fancy dorms or amenities built. Remember also that, away from the flagships, states opened non-flagship state universities that mostly catered to local commuters (except in states where the flagship(s) doubled as such for large amounts of the state population, such as Arizona and Hawaii). Dorms and amenities were (and still are) less at those campuses, since many of the students were local commuters with no need or interest in them.

70-75% of college students in US go to public schools. And average acceptance rate at 4 year schools in US is about 67%. Vast majority of kids applying to colleges in the US are not focused on “The Right School.”

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You’re badly out of touch. The college-fair action is intense at the public high schools, and the kids are knocking themselves out just like yours to get in at the fancy places, having been told to aim for the stars. They’re polishing up those GPAs and activities records like mad, man. The only thing is, nobody told them that if their parents aren’t well loaded with cash, and they’re not an SD or two brighter and more accomplished than the average elite admit, and they’re not Questbridge with the usual QB story, they’re almost certainly going to State U; the GPAs and activities won’t have much to do with it.

Listening to the chat from the incoming disappointed state-U first-years, btw, it kinda sounds to me like they’re just at the point of figuring this out. They’ve been trained to look for patterns and stats and man oh man, do they work fast together in groups.

I think we’re watching the next seriously powerful political-left party get born here. It’s going to take them about five years to put together the pieces of what they already sense is going on, and they’re pissed. If I were you, I’d be a little more careful and respectful, how you talk about them. Keep in mind that what you say here will persist. I wasn’t joking, above, when I said that if I were young and looking for a policy thesis, I’d be all over this site.

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In 2018, 78.6% of undergraduates in the US attended public schools. See I got rejected from 15 out of the 16 schools I applied to - #144 by ucbalumnus .

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You may be underestimating the costs, even back then, of college sports, student union halls, campus recreation facilities, student-services offices, and so on, not to mention the cost of running the hotels. (I stayed in an ASU dorm in the summer of '83; they were among the first to try to rent them out during the summer rather than pay for the empty buildings.) They were bare-bones next to what we have now, but they added up to more university-provided campus life than your usual Canadian or European university will offer.

I put it forward, incidentally, because people here seem to be having heart attacks at the idea of the poors going to college on their dime. If they want to spring for rugby pitches, I’m sure that’s cool, too.

Most public high school students in the US do indeed aim for their local public university or community college, and for most, that is a good fit financially and academically. Like most of your students, OP. It sounds like most are well-matched to their school, particularly if they need remedial support. There has always been a relatively small percentage, perhaps larger now, that aims for higher (and your daughter and her friends are in that group) and expends an enormous amount of effort to get there, but it is by no means the majority.

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Obviously, if the cost of running the dorms as hotels when they would otherwise be empty does not make a profit from the hotel revenues, then school would not do it. So it does not make sense to complain about that cost. In any case, I remember staying in a UBC dorm (Walter Gage, built in 1972) as a cheap hotel. It was nothing fancy, although it seemed nicer than some college dorms built in a similar era in the US.