Curriculum choices for high school freshman

Parents Forum
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<p>Does anyone have a feel for how rigorous a curriculum a child should have taken to be competitive for LACs such as Trinity Univ, Rhodes, Dickinson, Wooster, Furman? I know I'm covering a lot of ground here selectivity wise, but I'm trying to get a feel for what classes are "expected" vs the bare bones statistics and requirements, particularly numbers of APs and calculus. Carolyn?</p>

<p>My 8th grader son will be selecting a class schema soon for next year, he has very few choices, except math and study hall yes/no. He is NOT his sister. I think, based on the past he will be a B student. At his school, everyone goes to college, most to non-selective state schools that are numbers driven. Because of this, "protecting the transcript" is all important, so that everyone has a 3.0 to go to Auburn (now it doesn't always work out that way, but you get the picture). The curriculum has few fluff courses, so "protecting the transcript" is done by assuming a study hall, and defacto tracking. It can be hard to take only a few honors classes because of scheduling conflicts, we'll worry about that later.
His goal is to go to college out of state but not out of the South, my goal for him is to have some appropriate choices, including smaller schools with a more residential experience (Mom and Dad would like him to have a residential rather than commuter experience). Assume, for these purposes that money doesn't matter (it may make a difference in the end).</p>

<p>Does he have to take calculus? How many years of foreign language (school requires 2)? What about APs? He will probably take at least AP biology. His school is set up as 4X4, so he will have 4 years of English, history, math and science, no matter what. The absolute lowest "track" would be AlgebraIII/Trig and biology, chemistry, physics and one other science, either an AP of the big 3 or marine bio or anatomy. What are your thoughts?</p>

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<p>Cangel, a lot of kids from our HS go to decent colleges w/o taking calculus. A good friend of D's, for instance, just graduated from Loyola Md without it, and with no APs at all (BAsically, those classes are only taken by the "honors kids" of which there are only 30-40 out of 400 in a given year.) As far as foreign language, school requirements vary widely--my S got into a very selective school with only three years, though they recommended four. I'd counsel to start out asssuming four, then let him stop if he really doesn't like it sooner. Probably the most important thing is for him to have the 4X4 you list, and do as well grade-wise as he can, and be involved in some meaningful ECs at the same time.</p>

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<p>Cangel:</p>

<p>Calc is definitely not a requirement, even at some of the really selective schools that we visited, unless a kid wants to go to MIT, or CalTech or najor in engineering. But, nearly 25% of our seniors take calc, but maybe that's just our HS.</p>

<p>Parenthetically, I remember vividly a study of HS girls about 20+ years ago, pointing out the lack of math prep for major, 4-year universities (this study focused on the UC's), primarily by girls (at that time -- please no flames). Essentially, the findings indicated that girls, (again, typically, at that time), did not take 4 years of HS math, and, particularly, did not take pre-calc and/or Calc. As a result, matriculating boys and girls with this limited math background were precluded from taking 40% of the UC's offerings (nearly all math and science, but some social science courses which require Calc for non-math majors), bcos UC did not offer then any lower level math courses (not sure about today). Thus, it's something to consider or at least check out for schools that S maybe interested in. </p>

<p>btw: S is taking 'pre-calc' in HS now, and the first semester was 95% review of AlgII, at least in our HS. Hopefully, he'll see a curve by the end of year!</p>

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<p>Thanks guys, he is not a "passion" kid, unless the Civil War, Jak and Daxter, and drumline counts, but he will hopefully be an Eagle Scout and have 7 years of band, so I think EC wise he will be fine.
So few kids take calculus here - maybe 10-15%, it is hard to judge. Also sifting through on this site what makes a child admittable to a school vs merit aid qualified is difficult. That's why I wanted to not bring finances in, just bare qualifications. </p>

<p>Also, for him, if he doesn't change dramatically, he needs a school where he will be successful, not just barely "admittable", so there is a balance to be struck in that way too.</p>

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<p>My older daughter didnt have a lot of options at her school 4 years of math history english science foriegn lang, studio art and music drama.
I don't care so much what level, but they need to take full load of classes and try AP if available.
Her sister in public school is taking similar, but she has a shorter day so no arts yet :( In 9th grade I have no idea what colleges she might be interested in, she mentions U Hawaii but I think it is more important to have the basic college prep curriculum than worry about college.
Her school has most AP courses in the area, and I would like her to try one but I would discourage more than two unless she was getting A's or really was interested</p>

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<p>Our public school is different in that quite a few kids take algebra in 8th grade so that many more than 10-15% are on track to take calculus as seniors. But most take "Honors" Calculus, which is slowed down from the AP course and does not prepare for the AP test. That is what my daughter is taking now. Only less than 5% of the total student body takes AP Calculus. These are mainly students who were in a special enriched math program (one class of about 25 people out of 800 students) in grades 10 and 11, although exceptions can be made to take the AP Calculus from the regular precalculus if you have done very well. As far as admittance to LACs without calculus, if you look on the Kenyon college admissions website, under "Who Studies at Kenyon", they state that 52% of their entering class took calculus in h.s., which means that almost half did not. And many students at Kenyon come from private schools. So apparently, calculus is not a necessity for entrance into a well-regarded LAC, particularly if the student's interests lie outside of math and science.</p>

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<p>I took pre algebra in 7th, algebrea 1 in 8, algebra 2 in 9, geometry in 10, trig/precalc in 11, and calc in 12. my honors calc class covered more than ap calc, and i'm sure we learned more than they did too.. we had a girl switch out of my calc class because she had a D and join into the AP calc class and get a B... because we weren't allowed to use calculators in my calc class, and in AP calc they could. it's amazing how much smarter a calculator can make someone look.</p>

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<p>Students preparing for college should take as strong a courseload as they can successfully complete, AP's where appropriate. Most colleges will list the minimum requirements needed in viewbook, catalog, on the website; but they will frequently say something like, "the majority of applicants took a more demanding curriculum..."</p>

<p>A director of admissions whom I worked with always stated, "three to four years of all academic subjects - english, math, history, science, foreign language. And the school we worked at was not top 20, first tier. It was a bit of a reflection of our required core in college - all majors were required to take science, math, history, english, foreign language courses at this college in order to graduate.</p>

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<p>Irishbird, 3-4 years of academis subjects, but no particular expectations as to "level", just GPA? We will probably insist on the 3rd year of foreign language, but play the 4th by ear, my DH and DD have a flair for languages, French is an easy high A for her, if DS inherits my inadequacies, we may let it rest at 3 years.</p>

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<p>my daughter was on the middle track. Algebra in 8th, geometry in 9th, advanced algebra in 10th, statistics in 11th and pre-calc in 12th.
her sister is in algebra in 9th, but that is amazing since last year her teacher had her going over fractions and percentages , they have one of the crappiest math programs in the country in our district, so I have been having her attend kumon as well this year to get the basics that have never been adaquately taught. She is plugging away though so I assume she will get 4 years of high school math.</p>

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<p>Cangel, I think there are several things to consider when making decisions about 9th grade curriculum. First, the individual strengths and weaknesses of the particular child should be taken into account. I think it can be counter-productive to push a child into courses he/she is not ready for, but on the other hand, it IS also important to give some consideration as to which courses are pre-requisites in the specific school for getting into AP and Honors classes down the road. A final consideration is that the new SAT will include higher level math (Algebra II level and trig. but not calculus) and there will be more emphasis on reading and writing skills so if your son is a strong enough student, I'd urge him towards classes where he'd be well-prepared in those areas. There's another issue that some may not want to admit to but in many schools, the honors track students kind of form their own little group that can be a bit more school-focused than students in the non-honors track. However, as I said, it really depends on the individual student.</p>

<p>My daughter, for instance, struggled with Algebra I in 8th grade: it was clear that she wasn't ready to move on to Geometry in 9th grade (and the high school's placement tests put her in Algebra I again anyhow). She will take 4 years of math, but she'll likely just squeek into trig/pre-calc. next year. She did not make it into the pre-AP 9th grade bio. class. I could have pushed the school to admit her but science is not really one of her interests so we settled for the "regular" biology class instead. She was definitely ready for the Advanced English and history tracks which are pre-requisites for nearly all of the school's non-math and science honors and AP classes. Luckily, she did well enough on the school's placement test to get into those classes in 9th grade: I think she would have been bored if she hadn't. However, she has often felt bad realizing that she could be pulling "easy A's" in the easier classes instead of being towards the middle of the pack in the harder classes.</p>

<p>I have talked with my daughter's guidance counselor and some of the admissions reps of schools that my daughter is interested in (mostly in close range to the selectivity of the schools on your list) and have been reassured repeatedly that it is the FOUR years of math that matters to them, not necessarily the calculus. I know that it is different for some of the more selective schools, however (Ivies, top LACs, engineering schools) - at those schools, calculus seems more important. One tip that the guidance counselor gave me is that if a school says a certain number of years of a subject is "recommended" you should interpret that as meaning that number is the MINIMUM required for admissions. Having more than the recommended in any area is a plus in terms of admissions attractiveness. Having the "recommended" amount is probably just a neutral. Having less than the recommended amount is a negative. However, schools that say they "require" certain things sometimes can be flexible if there are other strengths in the transcript. </p>

<p>On the other hand, when my son was in 8th grade last year, he was placed into Geometry, pre-AP science, as well as the honors/AP English and history tracks. He is simply stronger in math and science - and those are true interests of his - than my daughter. I fully expect that he will make it through calculus AP and take a few AP science classes by going this route. But, he gets less stressed over school and has better time management skills than my daughter. Pushing her into the same schedule would have driven her over the edge in 9th grade, I think. But, he is handling it fine (although he too is having a bit of a blow to his ego to realize that he is no longer "the smartest kid" in the honors classes)</p>

<p>I guess the bottomline is: consider your child first, then decide if the tougher curriculum fits. And, remember, they don't HAVE to be honors students in every subject.</p>

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<p>cangel,</p>

<p>My D is not an "easy A" student (esp in math/sci) yet she wanted to take a full load for college. To complicate matters she was a varisity athlete, and also wanted to take 2 electives (music) each year.</p>

<p>She wound up doing two summer courses at the local community college to lighten the subsequent year's load and have a little more time for her electives & ECs. </p>

<p>She enjoyed CC bio (took between 10th & 11th) so much, she took AP bio anyway as a junior by doing a "zero" period. Zero periods are early am (7:00) classes before reg first period begins. (LOL, my theory about zero period classes is all 15 year olds try to take them, as added inducement for driving priveleges the minute they turn 16.)</p>

<p>Re math, instead of moving to pre-calc as a junior, she took statistics-- and did pre-calc as a senior. </p>

<p>So she wound up with 5 sciences, 4 math, 4 lang (2 in jr high), 4 eng, 4 social sci (6 APs) while never having more than 4 academic classes at once and only having 3 academic classes as a senior. </p>

<p>Is there a good community college in your area? Maybe your son could space things out a bit this way.</p>

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<p>My daughter was ambivalent about taking calculus her senior year. Math is not a huge interest for her. She made it through and did well on the AP exam. When she got to college (Rice) she told me everyone told her it was good that she took it in high school because it is MUCH harder in college- if you wind up having to take it then.</p>

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<p>Carolyn, thanks that's quite helpful, I'll check a couple of the schools' requirements. He traveled with us this summer, when DD made her big visit trip, and he made some good comments about size of school, distance, etc. Of course, all this might change in 3 years, I know some of his thinking will change.
I think he is an intelligent enough boy, he just completely lacks all the tools for school success other than smarts - he is disorganized, could care less, thinks he can get by with no studying and is sometimes successful, just not mature yet. What we don't know is will any of this kick in soon enough to allow him any real college choice, we have to try to keep options open until then. I've some worries about the honors track being a group, many of his friends are in this group, I keep hoping that will be incentive for him to perform more consistently.
SBMom, I'll keep the CC in mind, I don't think that's an option for us, the "good" CC is over the bay, a little far for us to drive him, and the closer one is more technical school than CC. Also, his 2 main ECs have heavy summer involvements - Scouts and band, I'd hate for him to give one up to squeeze in that extra science, but, hey, if grades don't come up, he'll have to be in summer school just to graduate. Thanks.</p>

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<p>My son wound up in all of the highest-track courses in hs - not because of college, but because the atmosphere was better for learning. At his school, the kids in the honors/AP courses want to be there, and drop back a level if they are not happy. It is a rural/suburban public school, most kids attend college in state, so the kids aren't competing with each other for slots in fancy colleges. </p>

<p>When he was in 9th grade, he had issues with his english teacher and the class, and pulled a D one quarter. I suggested transfering down a rung, and he refused - due to the class environment issue. He pulled his grades up, ending up with a B for that year. Since he now sports a 790V, transferring to an easier course in response to a temporary problem would not have been the correct decision. He was right (in this case, anyway!) and I was wrong.</p>

<p>It's his opinion that although the more advanced classes have harder material to cover, the instructional quality is better, and there are less disruptions. Ah, they're all so different, hard to know what's best, what's temporary, what's not.</p>

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<p>My older S, definitely not a math/science type, decided not to take AP Calc in his senior year although he had done well in precalc and his GC was urging him to do so. He did take a 4th year of math, all honors sciences, but no AP and a fourth year of science in senior year. He got into several highly selective LAC.</p>

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<p>canel: in the first paragraph I mentioned, AP's where appropriate. Adm. Directors would love to see someone in all honors, all AP's, great grades - but only very stellar students can pull that off :-)!</p>

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<p>Don't worry Irishbird, I interpreted what you posted the way that you meant it - APs in strong subjects. It will take a miracle for him to get any higher than pre-calculus, but at a minimum I see him graduating with: 4 years English, 4 years math ending in pre-calculus, 4 years of history with one AP, 4 years of science (bio, chem and physics) with one AP, probably AP Biology, and 2-3 years of language. He may well have 4 years of language, but he also might have only one AP. We have to love and work with the child we have, and hope he grows into some maturity soon enough to give him some options. In some ways, I will always worry more about this child than my high achiever, in other ways he is a much more successful human being - got to find that rich wife, that's the answer!</p>

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<p>Well you never do know what maturity and initiative may bring later-- my H was a rotten student, squeaked into Uva (Va resident/1970s) and barely graduated (bottom 1% of grad class) but once he became his own boss and got to do everything "his" way, he has had a great career as a writer...</p>

<p>Another really good thing for a kid who needs more "seasoning' is a gap year, or a PG year with a boarding school or program abroad.... can boost up a so-so HS performance a bit. We are thinking of this for our son with ADD issues.</p>

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<p>Now, that's an excellent idea SBMom - in some things, those that he cares about, he is very responsible. I can easily see him going to a service program either here or abroad, and being very successful - I can also see him going to our big state party uni with his high school friends and failing miserably (this is what I'm trying to avoid). The military is also a possibility, my husband's family has a family tradition of service, but I'd rather him go in with a college degree.</p>