Cut from CCM - Transfer questions

<p>cptofthehouse...I think you would have liked a certain member who posted a lot on CC (not just on the MT Forum) who has many kids ,one of whom went into MT and who auditioned for some BFAs but ended up at Yale (where one can still do quite a bit of MT and I know several MT kids who chose it). The reason I say this is because this member (who no longer posts), jamimom (look up her past posts on CC) used to say that college is a "halfway house" for young adults. She may have even referred to it as a "Disney Halfway House"!! Kinda goes along with your thoughts on some of the objectives you have for your child in college. </p>

<p>RE: the quote from whomever posted what you quoted Fishbowl.....and not saying you AGREE with it but I am just commenting on the quoted material.....I find it odd that a college, a private one no less, is saying they take more students than they can handle, in PART, as a way to fund the expensive amount of individualized attention and small class size they want for the upper years in the BFA program. All I know is that many colleges do NOT do this. Yes, they must figure into the budget the high cost of educating kids in a program with a low faculty to student ratio and may have to do so with funds from something else but not by taking in extra frosh and sophs whom they later drop but use the money to pay for the upper level training program. It would also seem to me that if they have too many in the lower years, that also defeats the purpose. Also, the person says only a small number can be adequately trained and accomodated. My kid is in a large BFA department but it is staffed in such a way to allow for that 15 to 1 number in every training class. I do believe it can be done well. </p>

<p>As far as schools like CMU and UMich and others, being able to admit "can't miss" students, I do believe any program, especially one like CCM, could do the same. I think more needs to go into the admissions process than just the ten min. audition because you can have someone who is truly talented but not up to the task of the training program and its rigor. Lots to assess in a holistic fashion. </p>

<p>I agree with cptofthehouse that there will be many students who do not hesitate to apply to cut programs (even some parents are willing) but I can see why a parent would view it differently because of the expense involved and also the difficulty that may ensue if the child is cut and it is too late to apply elsewhere for a year and the difficulty of transfer admissions in this field. In any case, again, I do think many are comfortable with such program policies and there is no dirth of applicants to these programs. Of course, it is a different story when we read accounts by students and parents here over the years, when they are cut and are no the other end of it. Nobody expects this to happen. These kids are talented enough to get in and so understandably, think they won't be cut. </p>

<p>There are students in many BFA programs, however, who have no clue what they are getting into and cannot handle the rigors of it. I truly truly wish more students and parents research and understand what a BFA program is like (not talking cut schools now but ANY BFA program) because it is not like regular college at all. And I have met some kids who I do not think can handle it even if they love MT. This type of program is not for all students. And that is why some students leave once they are in these programs and see for themselves. There are certain personality and work ethic qualities that a successful candidate should possess and this goes beyond singing, dancing and acting. Hopefully schools do try to ascertain (at the point of admissioins) these other qualities that are needed to be successful in such a type of degree program, let alone in the field.</p>

<p>Love the "halfway house" LOL. Just want son in situation where he has some options if he did not go on with MT. In our case, S is borderline in even getting through his program, not because of lack of talent in showcasing, auditioning, juries, but because of his very nature. If he were cut at a program like CCM, no way would he just go into the theatre arts major with a BA. It would likely be game over and hit the streets for him. So as a mom, I just don't see a cut program as a good deal for any of parents. </p>

<p>Soozie, researching MT programs is a tough endeavor. Not much out there other than what the schools themselves put out. ANd this thread, of course which should be compiled into a book of sorts. I always thought of MT as just drama with the voice and dance thrown in and was floored to find it to be a whole field of its own. And so selective. The thing that I noticed with a lot of MT kids, is that they do not want to go to a regular college. Mine was done when it came to academics, and a BFA program was as close to that as he would go. We did end up having to had some BA programs heavy in the music and theatres as first round results were not good, but he had no interest in them. Yet, he did like the environment of a university over that of a true conservatory such a BosCo and Roosevelt and a few others he visited. These kids are not at all risk adverse and will not shirk a cut program, I am sure. No, it's the parents who are putting up the money and trying to provide a little shelter and a little time before the plunge into the tough world of cuts and auditions and more cuts, that will not see the sense in a school where cuts are likely, or where failure is likely for that matter.</p>

<p>Cptofthehouse,
I can definitely understand your position on the money. My mom doesn't have to worry about such things since my Dad left life insurance policies she invested well over the years for both my brother and I. It was a huge setback for me, however, that I made a bad decision the first time around (wasn't cut, but quit) and had to do it all over again. Basically, my senior year, I'll be forfeiting the approx. $10,000 per year I would have gotten from the government since my father died in military service had I finished on time. That money is only good for 48 months and it's $10,000 less than I would have had while I start trying to make a career in the biz. That's not even including the year I lost off whatever career I might have. In most peoples' cases, that would be $10,000 - or a lot more, really - that would come off what they would have had for retirement. Invested well, that could be a lot of money. It would suck to lose it because of some capricious cut and I think it would be beneficial for someone who knows how to do some legal research to let us all know what remedies might be available if it could be shown to indeed be capricious. </p>

<p>But, really ... Given that there is at least the possibility of being cut at most programs, you really need to do a lot of research to decide on which schools you do and don't trust. Unfortunately, I think that can sometimes include a big leap of faith.</p>

<p>
[quote]
In our case, S is borderline in even getting through his program, not because of lack of talent in showcasing, auditioning, juries, but because of his very nature. If he were cut at a program like CCM, no way would he just go into the theatre arts major with a BA. It would likely be game over and hit the streets for him.

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One thing to remember in this is that sometimes the best actors - or at least those able to find a niche for themselves in the profession - are not always necessarily the best acting students. I think Sutton Foster was mentioned earlier in the thread. Some of you who are much more MT aficionados than me might know better, but what I've heard was that an acting teacher at CMU apparently got frustrated and told her she would "never be anything but a chorus girl," so she went out and did it and ... guess what? LOL Then, on the straight acting side, Robin Williams who is IMO one of the greatest American actors was apparently asked to leave Juilliard. It must have been amicable, however, since he now provides full scholarships for Juilliard Drama students in years two through four. Parker Posey was not cut from SUNY Purchase, but she barely escaped it on several occasions and finished her time there on artistic probation. She would have been cut as a senior had one of the faculty members not stepped in and got her set up with a Daytime TV gig. Then there is Mary Louise Parker who didn't seem to make a good impression on the NCSA faculty while she was there. One faculty member apparently referred to her as "that bimbo that got lucky" for years after she started having success. She didn't even get a BFA, but instead got their Diploma. She must not have had much patience with traditional academics. Amazing that she won the Tony for "Proof!" LOL</p>

<p>Sooz,
I'll just post a link to what Doctorjohn wrote about cuts for those who might be reading who haven't yet found it on the FAQ ... Colleges</a> For Musical Theater Major Discussion FAQ It seems from that, that his experience from having once taught at a cut school was that it might have indeed been based on economics. Not all schools have NYU's budget; but, then, they don't charge as much either. ;) Also, I feel I should say that his opinion was that it was "destructive to morale, and finally detrimental to the goals of training." Then, DePaul student CKP who I quoted earlier would seem to disagree although I'll have to admit her posts during that time seemed to carry a bit of stress about the process. She seemed like a real sweetheart and I'm so glad she made it through. :) Dang ... I guess she's about to be a senior! LOL</p>

<p>fish, fwiw, I agree with you about the talents of Robin Williams. My guess (and that's all it is: a guess!) is that he is probably annoying in the extreme to be around and frustrating to try to teach, which may have resulted in being asked to leave Juilliard. He's just, well, who he is!</p>

<p>And I notice that despite what NCSA faculty and insiders might say "inside" about Mary Louise Parker, they sure have her on their alumni list on the Web site! ;) (And why shouldn't they? I would, if I were them ...)</p>

<p>soozie, I'm curious as to why you would find it odd that some schools take in more students than they intend to keep as a "financial planning" strategy. I would think that all sorts of "business" considerations go into setting a policy for admissions. From a business perspective, departments are always competing with each other for university resources and one way to garner more support for getting a bigger piece of the pie is by demonstrating an ability to generate an enhanced revenue stream, by meeting or exceeding expectations concerning applicant numbers and by having a superior yield rate. And then you control the budget by limiting expenses, thereby showing departmental fiscal responsibility.</p>

<p>NMR,
Re: Robin Williams ... Can you imagine being in an acting class with that maniac???!!! :eek: LMAO But then ... Can you imagine playing Gertrude or Ophelia next to his Hamlet had he gone in that direction? All those possibilities with that kind of genius?! Just ... Wow!!!</p>

<p>Re: MLP ... Yeah ... They list Jada Pinkett Smith, too, but she didn't complete the program. Don't know why ...</p>

<p>Michael, I just find this an odd way for schools to handle a budget for a department. Other schools manage to have small classes in a MT training program without having to collect fees from additional frosh and sophs whom they plan to cut from the school eventually but use the fees to fund the upper years of the program. I see that some of these cut programs (including the one that fish was quoting from) do use these additional students in the first two years as a way of gathering revenue. I just don't think that is sound educational policy and I feel that other private schools find a way to fund these programs without doing it in this way.</p>

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<p>The thing about cuts is that there are stories of those who have been cut from BFA programs who have gone on to be successful in this field. A few were shared above but those are not the only ones. I don't think the programs are the sole judge of who will make it and who won't. Many who have been cut go onto to be successful. Likewise, many who are not cut, do not gain success on stage. I think the program's main mission should be EDUCATION and TRAINING.</p>

<p>
[quote]
They list Jada Pinkett Smith, too, but she didn't complete the program. Don't know why ...

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</p>

<p>I find some programs put too much emphasis in their marketing on the famous graduates of their program, which sometimes are just a handful of the total number of graduates (not saying this about NCSA itself, but generally speaking). And I realize some families put a lot of value in that...and I see that question asked here sometimes about famous graduates from a program. FOR EXAMPLE ONLY, when I look at OCU videos on You Tube, it seems that any OCU video has key words of Kristin Chenowith and Kelly O'Hara attached to it even if the video has nothing to do with them. As a prospective family, we didn't examine what famous graduates came out of any of the programs we looked into. It just was not that big of a deal in our search for the right program. I guess for some, it matters. And I guess for some programs, they make it a main selling feature in all their PR pieces, even if it is just a couple of famous graduates and not an indicator of what the majority have done since graduation.</p>

<p>^ True dat. IMHO, the thing to look at is working actors ... not just stars. Not all can be stars, but a lot more can be working actors if they're willing to sacrifice the sweat with the right people ... and they have the "steel." But ... I'm sure there are some veteran pros would could tell you that much more than me. I'm just a student and a young pro in a smaller regional market. Sort of like my bro who's trying to work his way up to "the show" in minor league baseball ...</p>

<p>soozie, re #185 and 187, I agree with you. I guess I just wasn't characterizing it as "odd" (as in "unusual and unexpected"). Must be the cynic in me ;) .</p>

<p>Michael,
Yeah, maybe using the word "odd" was an odd choice!</p>

<p>Fish & NMR,</p>

<p>The list goes on..........</p>

<p>I believe Rosie O'Donnell was told by her drama professor @ BU that she lacked any talent, and that she would never make it. Hmmm lets' see... film(s), TV, talk show host, etc. ;-)</p>

<p>My favorite - Tom Hanks was told he had no talent and would never make it as an Actor.</p>

<p>Friend of mine who met Sutton Foster at the stage door of several of her shows told her that CMU told Sutton she'd never amount to more than chorus... She left the program after 1 year...</p>

<p>These stories are interesting but are any of these actual cuts????</p>

<p>HoosierMom...good one. I think with many people who have made it, they have heard naysayers along the way but they perservered. </p>

<p>It hasn't seemed to sour Tom Hanks on BFA Drama programs! This past winter, when my D was rehearsing the mainstage musical at her university (a BFA Drama program), in walked a private "tour" with a tour guide and Tom Hanks and Rita Wilson and their son who got to observe the rehearsal (my kid's scene no less). It was something to have one of the best actors in the world watching ya! Anyway, perhaps his son is going into this field too. He certainly will have the genes for it.</p>

<p>Jada is a graduate of my D's high school and she didn't complete the program, reportedly because (according to school gossip:)) she loathed/absolutely hated the isolated nature of NCSA. She allegedly phoned one of her former teachers a few weeks into freshmen year and said she couldn't stand being there in the middle of nowhere. She apparently grew up in a very urban area of Baltimore, so I would guess that it was culture shock ..... In any case, I should add (in case any of that sounded negative) that JPS and her husband recently donated $$$ to the school and have a black box theater named after them, in honor of another alumnus, Tupac Shakur, who was a friend of Jada's. Of course, the kids don't use the black box's proper name, as no one feels like saying "Hey, meet you at the Jada Pinkett Smith and Will Smith Black Box Theatre in Honor of Tupac Shakur." :)</p>

<p>You are right bardmuse... some of these stories are not of cuts but they show that the college people who do these cuts don't necessarily know whether someone will make it or not... and someone who gets cut should not take that as a sign that its over</p>

<p>
[quote]
These stories are interesting but are any of these actual cuts????

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</p>

<p>Good point. While I agree that these stories are interesting, they sort of fall into a similar category as people pointing to the fact that Bill Gates was a college dropout and still successful.</p>

<p>I agree that while the stories are interesting, they are not necessarily tales of CUTS. </p>

<p>The only correlation is that this field can involve lots of naysayers, let alone rejection, and it doesn't always mean you are not going to make it. Then, some who complete BFA programs and are talented, also may not make it. It takes talent and drive and a healthy self concept, and lots of luck too. Education and training never hurts either.</p>