<p>I so agree NMR. After viewing the current CCM showcase blurb on YouTube(sp?) for this spring which all of these four participated in I am more miffed.They seemed to perform as well as their classmates in it to my (sic rather critical) eye.</p>
<p>ttmom, can you point out that youtube video?</p>
<p>My apologies to snoggie and the rest of the board: people HAVE acknowledged that the student may be at fault. I simply urge board readers to understand that a cut system does not claim to be perfect nor it is purely black and white. There are circumstances beyond any of our knowledge that attribute to such decisions made. Again, my sincere apologies.</p>
<p>We know of a student who attended a well-known and well-respected MT program who was "let go" after his sophomore year. It is NOT a program that is mentioned as a cut program. According to this student and his parent, he was not given any advance "warning' about the possibility of dismissal. According to the student and his parent, his grades in his courses were fine, although not stellar. And, of more concern, he could not get anyone on the faculty to talk with him about what had happened and why. E-mails and phone calls were not returned. Apparently, he was asked in a letter to "take a year off, then re-apply" AFTER his sophomore year had been completed, and AFTER he had gone home, leaving him little or no time to regroup for the fall term.</p>
<p>Who knows the "real" reason for the dismissal. The report (and even the perception) of the student and his parent may be inaccurate. However, I post this to let folks know that dismissals happen. And they may even happen at YOUR school. When they do, they are never pleasant. And, apparently, one may never know exactly WHY.</p>
<p>I cannot help but wonder if some of the people that get cut have serious attitude or behaviour problems in/or outside the classroom that somehow affect the program negatively in other ways. </p>
<p>We have seen at our D's rigorous college prep HS that some of the most notorious trouble makers land straight A's in all their classes, and yet cause enough disruption to warrant getting kicked out of school. Examples of this particular behaviour include out of control drinking, excessive partying, use of controlled substances, etc. etc. Some of this behaviour happened "outside of typical school hours" and so technically did not affect the classroom per se. However, indirectly it most definitely affected the synergy of the class as a whole, because some people felt that they could "beat the system" and have their own agenda, as long as they would keep their grades in check. </p>
<p>Please note that I DO NOT intend to imply that any of this applies to the OP's S, however, I want to point out that there may be other reasons that can lead to a cut than just poor grades. I do think that if any of the above would lead to a cut, people should be informed accordingly what those grounds were.</p>
<p>One of the boys that was cut from CCM attended high school with my daughter, and is a very close personal friend of hers. They attended an arts high school with only four senior students in the MT program. I have seen him perform on numerous occassions. He is awesome! He has been a guest in my home several times and he is a great kid . He definitely had the strongest work ethic in the senior class. I am quite certain that he did not have any parental help with the college application process. Yet, he had great acceptances and turned down some great MT programs (with scholarships) to attend CCM. My daughter and I are blown away that he was cut from CCM. I will never believe that he was tardy or cut classes. He worked too hard in high school to make it into college to blow it that way. He was also so very excited to get accepted into CCM. I do not believe that he would ever do anything to risk getting cut. This has been so upsetting to all that know him. Any way you look at it, this stinks! A year of student loans wasted, too late to audition or apply to other programs, and the total devastation of getting cut from a school that you love. My heart absolutely breaks for him!</p>
<p>It's so horrible that schools still have this policy in place. The main objective of a BFA program should be first and foremost education, and not "making the cut." No BFA program is a full conservatory, no matter how much of the degree studio classes take up. You go to college to get an education to prepare you for life; the majority from BFA programs want to perform, but that doesn't mean that all do, or that they're not considering other options. To just cut someone from a degree granting program at a university, even regardless of whether or not that person is not getting straight As in all studio classes, is just contradictory to the meaning and value of what the college experience is supposed to be like. </p>
<p>I also attended school the same person that NOLAMOM is talking about, and I'm friends with him. I had a bad feeling from the start when we all were getting our college acceptances and we heard that he was going to CCM. Though I was happy for him, I would have never attended or even auditioned for a program that "cuts" its students. There's such a hype about certain schools and once they cut their students, it's hard to get back into the school game...some take a year off or maybe even never come back. I hope that doesn't happen to him, and I hope he's able to spring back from this.</p>
<p>In my experience (especially from the experience of my performing arts high school), there's a high expectation and competitiveness among students in the arts and if you don't meet that expectation/get into a "really good school" for MT, you're just not going to be as successful, popular, etc. I think some of us really hype ourselves up about different schools because of how others see them. There's so many ways to explore theatre, to perform, and so many training opportunities to the truly dedicated. CCM is a great school, but it's in no way the "Harvard of Musical Theatre" because when it comes down to it, it's what you do with your degree, it's the unique things you do with your life with theatre that makes the difference. Though this is sort of cliched, I wish more people would take this into account seriously. It took me getting away from the type of environment my high school sometimes fostered to really come to terms with this. </p>
<p>I haven't talked to him about it yet, but I do wish him the best of luck with his decision.</p>
<p>I agree with you NOCCA Junior, it is horrible that schools still have cut programs. It seems to me that freshmen year is stressful enough without having to worry about getting cut!</p>
<p>I can't help but think that CCM and the other cut programs miss out on some really talented kids who choose not to audition at those places because of the cuts. Even so, there seems to be plenty of very talented kids who know about the cut system going in and take the chance.</p>
<p>You are right NMR many talented kids do take that chance and I cannot help but wander if they fully understand the risk. When my d was beginning the college search, we talked with the head of the CCM MT dept. He was very nice, but I felt that he was vague about cuts, glossed over the cuts, and indicated that only those students who did not attend classes, were tardy, or had poor work ethic were cut from the program. I wrote the post about my d's friend so that high school students and their parents can understand that CCM's cut program is based on juries and that they should not assume that the students that are cut are goof-off students.</p>
<p>I feel I need to respond to NOCCA Junior's comment:
"To just cut someone from a degree granting program at a university, even regardless of whether or not that person is not getting straight As in all studio classes, ..."</p>
<p>None of us (possibly including the parents of these 4 kids) EXCEPT the 4 students involved and the faculty KNOWS the FULL reasons why these kids failed juries twice, resulting in dismissal. They all knew that 2 failures would result in being cut. I spoke with a current student thisclose to the situation and it is clear to me that these students know why they are no longer there. I think that it is time to stop discussing how "fair" or "unfair" this action was. I feel terribly sad and sorry for these kids and their parents. That being said, the original poster was looking for some guidance so I hope she found some and that her child is figuring out how to proceed. And those starting the audition process are now aware that CCM, like some other schools, does have a cut policy IF a student does not meet certain
criteria that the student knows about. And, they do get a warning- that first failure. SO now consumers can go into this process with knowledge, and hopefully the hurt will heal, lessons will be learned, and these kids and their families can move on.. It can be difficult for some kids to go away from home and have so much freedom sometimes. I wish them well.</p>
<p>I'm sure the 4 students do know some of the reasons why they were cut, and I know that all students, including myself, have done things during freshman year that haven't exactly been all-the-time focused on the art, both in and outside of class. However, I feel that the purpose of a university should not be a full "cut" of students, but, rather, an evaluation of what is going wrong to make it right. No matter if the first jury is failed, being cut after that second jury is still unexpected to an extent. Even though if I were in the situation I would have immediately started auditioning for other schools, when you're at a school you love you don't think about being asked to leave the program, especially when most of your peers are at schools who don't cut. I stand by my statement in which I feel that cutting is detrimental to the learning process and the whole meaning of what a university is supposed to be like. I could see if it were a full conservatory, but it's NOT...it's a Bachelor of Fine Arts program.</p>
<p>I just have to wonder what the looming possibility of cuts does to the creative process. I know if I were constantly worried that I wasn't going to be able to continue in the program, it would inhibit me from taking risks and perhaps failing. I am not an actor or a performer of any type, but I have spoken with enough of them to know that they need to feel free to explore and try new things in order to improve in their art and craft. I also would frankly worry that the cut system would encourage kids to try to be "teacher pleasers."</p>
<p>And what about the potential damage to what should be a collaborative process, not just on stage but also in day to day work that is done. How can you commit to collaborating fully with someone who you are competing against in a cut process? That's a key reason that once you are admitted, there should be a difference between the educational process and the competitive job seeking process that a performer goes through once graduated and in a professional career. Case in point: my daughter worked with some of her friends in preparing for vocal juries and for audition call backs for a show they commonly wanted. It made them stronger and better performers as well as fostering artistic collaboration. I think what they did would be tough to do if you were looking at the person next to you as the one who could cause you to be 1 position below the cut mark.</p>
<p>I agree with a lot that MichaelNKat and NMR have posted on this thread. </p>
<p>I have taught at five colleges. And I do believe that those who are failing in some manner and who after a probationary period, can't pull it together, cannot merely continue. But what I am having difficulty with here with the cut system at some of these MT programs is that the criteria for dismissal is not well articulated for one thing. Then, it seems that the dismissal from the program is based on what happens during juries as opposed to the sum total of the student's time in school and in class...like all is riding on juries. Let's say that a student's work ethic is problematic. Let's say the student is constantly tardy. Let's say the student doesn't collaborate well with the rest of the class. Let's say the student is displaying behaviors related to NOT being a healthy and responsible student.....perhaps is partying too much, abusing drugs or alcohol. Perhaps the student may even have mental health issues. What I am having a hard time reconciling is that IF ANY one or two or three of these things are going on, wouldn't it be reflected in the GRADES in the BFA training classes? If these behaviors are severe enough to warrant dismissal (and they very well could be), how did the student manage to be subjectively graded well in the training classes in that program? It would seem to me that the student is not meeting set criteria (though this criteria may not be outlined to the students ahead of time), that they'd be doing poorlly across the board IN CLASS and not just in juries. And thus, if a student is failing IN CLASS and then hopefully is provided a probationary period to turn well defined things around, a student may not be able to continue. But that is not what I am observing here. </p>
<p>Further.....let's look at possible problems outside of class such as drinking, drugging, or even mental health issues. I am not referring to any students at this school or on this thread. I would HOPE that if a college observed a student who had serious issues in these areas, that the college would intervene and work with the student to get help of services available since the aim is to guide the student to be successful in college. But let's just say the problem is serious and the student is not availing him/herself of the help available or the support available on campus with these issues. It would seem to me that the program might then have a conference with the student and ask them to take a leave of absence to get help with the hope that the student, when healthier (or more responsible if that is the issue) could return after the leave of absence. I still don't see cutting a student as the answer UNLESS a student is truly flunking out across the board and not simply at juries. </p>
<p>I would be concerned that the atmosphere of a program with cuts would be affected in not so positive ways. It may foster competition. It may foster jealousies. It may work against the social cohesiveness of the group. It may keep a student from taking risks. It may cause fear. I think for some kids, who may already be struggling with issues or healthy living or with being away from home or in an intense program.....it may be a toxic environment, rather than a nurturing one, and thus may exaccerbate their existing issues. I just don't see cuts as positive, even though the program/training itself is very good.</p>
<p>From my understanding the things soozievt mentions within and without the framework of the classes-work ethic, tardiness, collaborative ability, attitude, even mental health or social behavior are most likely considered in the decision that ultimately comes out as a "jury" decision. I agree with most of what she, NMR, and MichaelKat are saying as well. I am just concerned for the feelings of these 4 kids as they or their parents still might post or lurk here and it does no one any good to keep trying to figure out what happened when we who do not have students at this school cannot know all of what is involved or disclosed to students along the way in their training. I strongly agree that it is detrimental to all growth of a student and to the group to have the threat of a cut hanging over one's head at any EDUCATIONAL institution. CAVEAT EMPTOR!</p>
<p>I realize this thread began as one parent's dilemma over a very difficult situation related to her son being cut from this one particular program. I think it evolved into a discussion about such policies in general and not about this school or these particular students. At least, for me, my comments were about understanding how the cut policy works and the repercussions to consider, but were not truly about a particular college or any students or their personal situations. </p>
<p>My heart does go out to this parent who started the thread and my hopes are that this setback will eventually work into something positive for her son who obviously must be quite talented to have even been accepted into CCM's MT Program. </p>
<p>The topic is a worthy one as a TOPIC itself for those who are now exploring colleges and one should consider their OWN comfort level with such cut systems. My own kid was not into this type of policy and made her college selections accordingly. But I have nothing against those who go into this process fully informed and make a choice to apply or attend programs of this nature. It does seem hard to fully understand the policy and the criteria for cuts and it feels too vague for my comfort and I do think some were trying to come to an understanding of how it all works and plays out.</p>
<p>ttmom, back to the criteria for the cuts (whatever it may be)......it may come out at jury time when the decision is rendered but as a former college teacher myself, I do not fully comprehend how if these issues are so detrimental to their success in the program, how they didn't come out in their course grading for training type classes which should be graded on some sort of rubric (I know my kid's BFA classes had a rubric on every aspect of each class). That is the part that I can't reconcile how it only comes out at the "final" and not throughout the course feedback (not just talking about CCM but what I have read of cuts at several schools..where those who were cut had pretty good course grades in the training classes....based on personal anecdotes that were posted over the years here).</p>
<p>I have been reading this and other threads about cuts with interest. Because of our proximity we know many CCM students and know bits and pieces about the program. (D does not attend CCM, but has worked with many students who do in both MT and drama). What I find interesting is people's strong opposition to the place having juries leading to dismissal. (I am not sure this is the same as cuts, as the students are not competing for a ever smaller number of places). CCM does not hide that this is their system, so anyone interested in CCM should investigate it thuroughly but it is a known system.
D's performing arts school has the same system and she has had juries since she was in 4th grade. It is likelh her PA modeled their system on CCM. D receives grades in her arts classes each quarter and they have semester juries "boards". A student can be dismissed from her PA for, 1. receiving a C or less in the arts major for two consecutive semester (regradless of their boards score); 2. recieve a 2 or less (on a 4 point scale) on boards for 2 consecutive semesters; 3. displinary reasons; 4. failing academic grades. She has had friends who have been asked to chage majors or leave the school because they have failed their boards 2 consecutive semesters - not many but a few. The school has become much more lenient of late with student-based financing since if they let a kid go they loose the funding for the kid. I realize it is different in a public HS where we are not paying for the training or education and their "home school" has to take them back, so they are not left with no education.
So I guess I find it interesting that people would see this as so negative for college students when this is the system my kid has lived with since she was 10. Don't know if it is good or bad, but we are used to it.
On the flip-side D has ZERO interest in attending CCM for a variety of reasons, one of which is juries. And after 6 years of a pressured jury system is thinking she doesn't need more of the same at college and is looking at BA programs and opting out of BFAs altogether.</p>
<p>Just as an aside, her school has specific performance criteria for boards. The kids no what they are- the problem is that they are still subjective and based on a single days performance. I would assume that CCM has specific criteria for their juries - but how you they are applied can only be subjective.</p>
<p>
[quote]
What I am having a hard time reconciling is that IF ANY one or two or three of these things are going on, wouldn't it be reflected in the GRADES in the BFA training classes?
[/quote]
If you'll go back to the FAQ and read the section on cuts again, Doctorjohn put it very well ...
[quote]
STANDARDS AND REPUTATION </p>
<p>The first reason for using juries and similar evaluation systems is historical: some theatre conservatories are descended from music conservatories which have been doing this sort of thing for centuries. </p>
<p>Juries are an accepted part of the world of music. So much so that Indiana University, my son David's alma mater (he is a bassoonist), only has to say in its list of requirements for the performance degree, "Entrance audition, freshman jury, upper-division hearing, junior recital, senior recital." Not much further explanation required. Students understand that they must pass each and every level in order to receive the degree. David tells me that students get two chances to pass these juries; if they don't pass the second time, they have to find another major. But he also tells me that he knows of it happening only once or twice in his six years at IU. </p>
<p>If that's true, why do the faculty keep the jury system? Why don't they simply rely upon grades in courses, including the studio? </p>
<p>Historically, European universities separated professors from tutors. Professors lectured and wrote the examinations, while tutors helped prepare students to pass the exams. Early educators recognized that tutors would have difficulty making hard judgements about students with whom they'd developed a close personal relationship. Examinations, administered by the college, were the only way to ensure that graduating students had mastered an accepted body of knowledge and skills. </p>
<p>American universities, for a variety of reasons, combined the two roles and allowed professors to grade their own students. (That carries its own set of problems.) Nowadays, the only vestiges of the old European model are in: </p>
<p>Master's thesis and doctoral dissertation committees, which contain other departmental and "outside" faculty in addition to the student's advisor.
Standardized tests, from state-mandated competency tests in 4th grade, through SATs and graduate school entrance exams, all the way to law and medical boards.
Music (and dance and theatre) juries. </p>
<p>In all of these cases, the intent is to establish standards which students must meet in order to be certified. And there is recognition that maintaining those standards requires testing by someone other than the primary tutor. </p>
<p>Whatever you think of standardized tests--and I'm very suspicious of them--I don't know anyone who would debate the necessity of "juries" for lawyers and doctors. Or auto mechanics and chefs, for that matter. </p>
<p>But for bassoonists or actors? What difference does it make if XXU graduates an actor who's not very skilled? Who gets hurt, really? </p>
<p>The answer is: every actor who has graduated recently or will graduate soon from any given university (hereupon referred to as XXU). Reputation is critical in the theatre, and when a department showcases its senior class in New York City, that reputation is put directly on the line. Professional training programs live not only in the business world of higher education but also in the business world of professional theatre. If one casting director decides that he doesn't want to bother interviewing that XXU alumna because their showcases have been weak recently, it doesn't matter how good that individual XXU alumna is. Everyone gets painted with the same brush. If would be nice if casting directors were "fair", but let's not be naive about this. </p>
<p>The reverse is also true. If a school presents outstanding showcases, then everyone who carries the degree--even graduates who weren't in the showcase--benefit as well. "XXU has been turning out some good people lately, let's take a look at her." It won't guarantee the job--only the audition process (the ultimate jury system) will do that--but it may help the actor get the first interview. </p>
<p>So schools which present showcases--and there is market demand from parents and prospective students for schools to do them--have a problem. How do you ensure that the actors you present in NYC will look good to the agents and casting directors? There are only two choices of which I'm aware: </p>
<p>You have to have students audition to get into the showcase.
You have to eliminate students along the way who aren't "measuring up". </p>
<p>Hence, the need for juries. Showcases cut both ways. They certainly provide opportunities for graduating seniors to be seen. But they also put considerable market pressure on schools to bring only those students who will look good. And if the showcase is a requirement rather than an elective, schools are pushed towards making decisions quite early on about who will succeed in the training, and there's less patience with slower growth.
[/quote]
I've never even set foot on CCM's campus, but maybe that's the way it works? Anyway, in this case, unless someone has some very solid contrary information, it might be best to just take it at face value and recognize that the four students who were cut were for whatever reason simply not measuring up to CCM's standards. Bottom line is that they failed their juries. It's a risk anyone who decides to go there takes and, yes, it could be you. At least they don't do it by numbers anymore. I've also noticed that at least on this group those who have been cut by CCM tend to take it with class and grace which indicates to me they know exactly why it happened and have accepted it unlike those cut by some of the other programs.</p>
<p>Just musing a little ... I remember when I worked on "As You Like It" last summer and a friend and I were looking over the program. I'm not gonna name names, but the conversation went like ...</p>
<p>Friend: "HE went to ... XXXXX???!!!
Me: "NUH UHHHHHH!!!!!" </p>
<p>Poor guy was a BFA grad and had been having all kinds of problems with what was really a very minor role. Good thing he did well enough on the LSAT to get in law school because he sure wasn't gonna work with that company again. No wonder "the acting thing" didn't work out for him in New York. Just ... terrible. Would you want someone saying that about a graduate of your school?</p>
<p>Some might also want to remember that those of us who look at these schools as professional training programs first and foremost and are of the opinion that who you train with is every bit as important as who you're trained by might think some of you are daft to pay huge sums of money or even go deep into debt for a BFA at which it is possible to just skate through as long as you don't flunk out completely.</p>
<p>fishbowl....I recall Doctorjohn's great explanation quite well. This elephant has been in the room in these discussions. On some threads, it has been asked the justification for cuts. Some believe, as do I, that SOME schools cut with an eye on presenting only the best talent at industry showcases to preserve the reputation of their program and its graduates in the field. However, I prefer DoctorJohn's stance at his school which also can solve this issue and that is he holds auditions for the showcase and not all students are guaranteed to be in it. But they are guaranteed to receive their education as long as they meet certain standards of passing in the major.</p>