<p>This has turned into such an interesting discussion. I really look forward to hearing from those who have been there how you go about transfering after you have been cut as the OP is probably interested in learning more abou this as well.</p>
<p>Also, I would like to to take the opportunity to add that, our family firmly believes in "things happen for a reason", good and bad, as when one door closes, another window of opportunity tends to open. </p>
<p>Good luck to the OP, please keep us updated on your S's next steps!</p>
<p>My s's girlfriend was cut from a program at the end of her Freshman year (a year ago). It never specifically asked on an application about why she was a transfer student. However, during her audition this past year at Point Park she was asked and was honest with them ~ she figured that it wouldn't do her any good to lie. Plus, many of the instructors have colleagues teaching at other schools and could possibly find out anyway. Their response to her was that at our school once we commit to you we are committed to training you and you won't be cut here (something close to that). Yes, she was accepted there! My son subsequently left the same program that she was cut from and while auditioning this year he said that he didn't feel the program was a good fit for him. No one questioned him further. I can tell you that he didn't want to return because of the stress of juries always on his mind and like others have said he didn't feel that allowed him to take risks to fully grow as a performer.</p>
<p>Above someone mentioned Butler in Indianapolis (not as a cut school, but as a transfer option). When we were looking, they only offered theatre and not MT. Perhaps that has changed. We know several people who have been very successful coming through their dance performance program. I think they are a strong ballet school.</p>
<p>They are not an MT school. But they have a Lyric Theatre program within their school that is excellent. I was thinking about Butler more as a safety because it is not a MT major, but has MT possibilities. We found that such schools were hard to find, because many schools with excellent music, dance, acting programs were not coordinated and made it difficult or impossible to cobble together anything like a MT program (BC and BU in particular come to mind and Purchase college as well). It apparently can be done at Butler, and it is a nice school near a fairly large city with a lot of performance possibilities. I spent 2 weeks in Indy and went to a number of events there, as I stayed near the college, and I was quite impressed. It was not a school on my son's list but having undergone the MT odyssey, I could look at the offering and kind of assess the program there. (yeah, I did learn something from that search). It is NOT a BFA, but I think all kids going through this should have some non audition possibilities, in case things don't pan out. In our experience, we found that some girls, in particular, were left high and dry for MT audition schools, whereas the boys seemed to all find a place. </p>
<p>The other thing we discovered belatedly, is if you go to those unified auditions at the not so popular locations, and if you are not scheduled up completely, you can visit some schools that may not be on your list and do an impromptu audition. Son "applied" to some schools that way, brought back tons of stuff on some schools that were not in consideration. So he ended up with some MT choices if his list did not come up with something. However, he also felt that he would consider a non MT choice over some MT choices, if he did not like the atmosphere/environment of his MT choices. THings really evolved for us during the search, unlike for many of the posters here who knew better what they wanted from the onset, as we were truly feeling our way through the process. I wish we had started his search with the knowledge we now have!</p>
<p>My d was fortunate to be accepted into several mt programs this past year. The one thing that she was adamant about was not participating in any program that had a cut system. Her feeling was that any really good program would want to support the students they choose and nuture them thru the next 4 years. When I told her about this thread her comment was that since this is still an educational environment that cutting should not exist and that since in a sense we hire the school with our tuition that we should only be allowed to fire them not them fire us.</p>
<p>Of course we are not talking about bad behavior, drugs, alcohol or bad grades. Maybe someone is still on a learning curve for mt and needs a little more time. Just like some people take an entire rehearsal process to to find a character and others find their's right out of gate.</p>
<p>For johnsmom, please don't be discouraged. This is just one school's opinion. Possibly the CCM program was not a good match for your talented s. I would contact other programs and see if there are possibilities for transfer.</p>
<p>While PPU does not say they cut, they do have an audition at the end of Freshman year to determine who gets to move on to the BFA program and who stays in the BA program. We have a friend who just completed a year at PPU. When she sat in her first class, the teacher said something like "look around you--50% will not be here in a year." I don't know how to interpret all the conflicting info about the programs. . .</p>
<p>It seems to me that each kid needs to do his/her best and be positive about the choices they have made for the Fall. If it is not a good match, they'll learn soon enough and then move on.</p>
<p>I have been thinking about things for OP's S and I was wondering... Are there MT programs that have early auditions? Perhaps in November or December? Then he could apply as a transfer student to all that do that appeal to him, as well as some non- audition BA programs for Spring entry. Even if he were deferred in the programs until Fall, he could enter the college in January and get some GE courses down, while still doing some voice/dance stuff, then he would have more under his belt while feeling confident that he can still continue to train in his field. It would only put him a little behind. Soozievt, would this work? (Of course it all depends on early audtions. I guess it would work if he applies to a school with a non audtion BA!)</p>
<p>OCU has auditions in November, I believe, and they have rolling admissions, so it is possible that he could enter as a transfer in the spring semester. I think I have heard my D mention a student or two who have done this.</p>
<p>snoggie, he would have to check with each school as I don't think all schools have January admissions. Many don't (either for the university itself or for the BFA program). It may make sense to take an entire gap year so as not to rule out the many programs that he might be interested in that do not have January enrollment.</p>
<p>Example...Tisch does not have Jan. transfers. </p>
<p>This student could take a year off and do training some place and also could enroll as a NON DEGREE student in some courses that might be transferable. For instance, he could live in NYC, take voice, dance and acting and take some classes at a school like New School for liberal arts. Then he could audition for the following year for transfer into a BFA program.</p>
<p>Nocca junior noted,"It's so horrible that schools still have this policy in place. The main objective of a BFA program should be first and foremost education, and not "making the cut."</p>
<p>Response: Maybe I am the only one who feels that a cut policy maybe a good thing for several reasons.</p>
<p>First, I don't think that keeping a kid who the school feels won't make it, or who doesn't have the proper work ethic is doing justice to the kid. Admittedly, the grades should reflect some of these problems. I don't think that kids who don't make the grade due to talent or tardiness or lack of work should be be getting A's and B's,but I do think that the cut system is a good thing.</p>
<p>Secondly, the cut system helps the school and all of the remaining kids. When Kids audition for shows or are viewed by directors, they can know that directors respected the program. Remember every grad paints a picture of the quality of their respective program in their performance. Putting out inept grads will seriously hurt the reputation of the school.</p>
<p>Interestingly, the University of Cincinnati's DAAP school not only have yearly portfolio screening,but at least they give bad/mediocre grades to kids who aren't cutting it,which I think should occur in CCM.</p>
<p>I agree with a poster that having cuts isn't necessarily a bad thing for the reasons given above;however, as he noted, they should make the process a lot more transparent and clear at admission.</p>
<p>Taxguy, I think you make a fallacious presumption when postulating that a "cut system" is an important factor to promote credibility and respect in the industry for the "quality" of a MT program and the education received by its graduates. There are many programs that do not have a cut system which are highly regarded by industry professionals and whose graduates ably demonstrate the quality of the education and training they received. NYU, CMU and Northwestern are 3 that have general recognition among the lay consumer public and there are many more known to industry professionals. In addition, there is a material difference between a system of holding students accountable for following rules, demonstrating a dedicated work ethic and achieving an acceptable standard of growth and achievement as a performer and one that is in reality designed to to promote the interests of the school in cultivating and maintaining its image in the industry through an artifice designed to eliminate students who are otherwise meeting their responsibilities in every respect.</p>
<p>A system that matriculates more students than a school actually intends to keep (cutting to a number), eliminates students to make room for new applicants or transfers who are concluded to be more "marketable", or eliminates students for reasons other than a student's behavior or failure to meet articulated standards of achievement, based on the entire body of a student's work, serves no legitimate educational purpose.</p>
<p>I fully agree with you, Michael. In my view, a college's mission should be education first and foremost. If their main goal or ratonale relates to promoting the quality of its graduates in the industry, then that affects the entire mission and philosophy of carrying out the program. And the fact is that there are many very well regarded MT Programs who do not cut and their graduates get work and so it is not critical to have cuts and to only present top talent at a showcase. And IF that is so important to the school, then the showcase can be by audition. It just seems that too much focus is on the showcase and the school's image through the showcase. For my D, she is not at school for the showcase but for the training. She is even giving up the opportunity to be in one showcase she could be in for certain as she has other priorities (but will audition for another showcase that is by selecton at her school....). In my view, the school's reputation should not simply rest on their showcase but also on how good the program itself is. Is a school's purpose to educate or to promote the school and graduates? Many great BFA in MT programs exist with no cuts and their reputation and graduates are still doing fine. In my opinion, let the industry decide who is going to make it on stage, not the school. And ya know, a school could be wrong n their assessment. Obviously, they were "wrong" when they admitted these students in a highly selective process if they now feel these students aren't worthy enough to continue on and be nurtured.</p>
<p>Soozie, I agree that the emphasis on showcases is misplaced. I remember when my daughter was auditioning for schools, a discussion of showcases occurred at the info session of one school (that is typically on the short list of "must" schools on the east coast) that regularly conducts a NYC showcase for its seniors. The head of the Theatre Department candidly advised the parents and students in the audience that the existence of a showcase should not be at the top of the list of reasons to consider a school and that most graduates of programs achieve their successes without regard to participation in a showcase. Her exact words were "Showcases are highly over-rated and don't make a difference in the careers of most students who go on to be successful in the business." I found her words to be refreshingly candid compared to the hype about showcases heard at some other schools. Now, that's not to say that showcases can not provide opportunities, experience and exposure that are beneficial, but there are so many more important factors to consider when determining schools to which to apply or deciding between acceptances. When it comes to post graduate employment opportunities, I think the resumes of faculty, whether they are currently working pros and the relationships they have formed during their careers can play a far more important and effective role in providing opportunities to graduates than the existence of a showcase.</p>
<p>As to the validity of the cut system, it certainly does exist whether it is upfront or "hidden". When my d went to the unifieds there were many schools that made a point to state that "they do not have cut systems". It seemed that they were taking a stand against the practice and were adamant since they would repeat it several times. CMU was very pointed even emphasizing the fact that once they take someone they are committed to them for their entire college experience. They felt that if they accepted someone through the rigorous audition process, the student than became their responsibility.
It does seem that for some schools the showcase becomes essential and the need to weed out weaker performers results in dismissals. My question is how do you someone is weak after only 1 year. Maybe they need more grooming and growing. If the showcase is that important than make the performers audition to participate in it but continue to keep them in the program. The reality is that for the s that was cut from CCM, he will have to enter school year 08-09 as freshman and even if a school lets him enter as a sophomore he would in reality have been getting ready to be a junior if he had not been cut. Think of the overwhelming monetary cost. The family has already paid for one year. He might have to wait out another year to audition for a program he wants (the cost of auditioning again is astrononical) and then possibily add another costly year of college if he has to enter as a freshman.
I understand that the school's justification is that it is tougher out in the real world but college is not the real world yet. In the real world you would not pay someone $50,000 for a role.</p>
<p>As a parent I would be loathe to pay for a cut school. It's just too much trouble to have to go through this all again. It's one thing if the kid decides he does not want to stick with the program, or has true issues that would get him thrown out of any college program, but to have to deal with cuts when you want a sort of safe haven for 4 years is not what I want. If I felt that it was time to deal real world, he could take some classes at workshops or studios for far less and audition for the year. THe reason I wanted son in college is that I wanted a few more years for him to mature and see how other kids his age are living at college.<br>
As for showcase, it is wonderful if they get in one, even more so if they get opportunities from it, but just like lead roles in plum plays, there is no guarantee That's just the way it goes, even if you pay for a theatre program, and I'm sure all of us have paid for enough roles.<br>
Cuts are just not what I want to have hanging over Son's head (and mine) while he is still in college. He'll get a plenty, I'm sure when he auditions, and is getting plenty now as he auditions. THere are disappointments enough that I don't have to pay for them.</p>
<p>Let's whack it again just to make sure ... ;)</p>
<p>I think maybe too much is being made of the quality of the showcase here as being the only reason to cut. To me, it goes a long way beyond the showcase. I respect Soozievt's opinion that "a college's mission should be education first and foremost" and think that might be the best approach for certain types of students, but I do not share that philosophy as a blanket for everyone and all programs. As I've said before, what comes first and foremost to me and what I would assume is most important to the type of student who would do well at CCM is the professional training. Yes, there is a lunatic fringe of students who want to be pushed way past their current comfort levels on a day-to-day basis with the singular goal of maximizing their artistic potential and neither want nor need anyone holding their hand and telling them "it's alright" and how wonderful they are. There should be programs for us, too, right? The problem I see is that there are some very talented people who think they want that - usually because of the prestige factor and some romantic notion about the whole thing - but come to realize they really don't or, even worse, have to have someone convince them of it ... sometimes brutally. Some kids who might be considered total prodigies back home simply can't handle all the rude awakenings that come in these high-intensity programs and, sadly, you just can't keep them around in that kind of mix. You just have to hope they'll thrive some other place. It doesn't mean they aren't talented or that they're somehow lesser people. They just might not be ready for this type of training and I don't think it's fair to blame the faculty for letting them in in the first place. I mean, how many of you who hire people for jobs are right every single time? I think they're doing very well if most of the students finish. All they can do is tell if the necessary talent is there and if the student at least knows the right things to say in the interview portion of the audition. Really, what I've been told is that a two-thirds graduation rate in a BFA is about what should be expected. </p>
<p>At any rate, from what's been said here, I don't even consider CCM to be a "cut school." They have recently had entire classes graduate intact and there is absolutley no credible evidence that they were cutting to any kind of preset number. I would call them a "jury school" and anyone who considers going should definitely take that into account. This type of program is serious business and there will be no time at all for dawdling or doing "other things."</p>
<p>On another note, I can't find the post, but there was a Dad of a CCM MT alum who posted on here sometime in the recent past that an almost unheard of number of grads from his D's class were still working in the field five years after graduation. We're talking most of them. Agree with their juries or not, they're definitely doing something right there.</p>
<p>P.S. Sandy Meisner was such a meanie for kicking all those people out of his class ... Why in the world would anybody have wanted to be trained by him? ;)</p>
<p>How many kids have been cut in the last 5 years per year out of how many kids in the program? Curious as to how extensive these cuts are. </p>
<p>As I have said, when we entered the MT audition world, it was a lot to digest, and I had no idea what a cut policy was. A lot of what was said went over our heads. Did not quite understand the situation. No manual for MT schools either. And did not CC then. I did not get it. Neither did son, I'm sure. The cut programs are out there. People want to get into them. I am just giving my reasons as to why I would not want my kid in one, so that those considering one are fully aware of the situation as I was not.</p>