Cut from CCM - Transfer questions

College Majors Musical Theater Major
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<p>Isn't the raison d'etre of a discussion board so that people can -- dare I say it? :) -- discuss things? Doesn't discussion often, at its best, involve hearty debate, with each "side" doing its best to make its points and defend its point of view? The fact that people can come onto this board and have a healthy difference of opinion is one of things I have appreciated most about it and I think that others feel the same way. It's stimulating and fun.</p>

<p>Now I have a question for fishbowlfreshmen, who has been here vociferously defending cuts:</p>

<p>I understand completely how a program, overall, benefits from being able to cut students who they have ascertained by virtue of juries don't have professional potential. I get that. I do. </p>

<p>What benefit, however, accrues to the <em>students</em> via a cut system that could not be obtained by simply accepting less students (say, in the manner of Carnegie Mellon) in the first place? I have asked this and asked this, and not a single individual has even tried to answer. Remember: I want to know what good it does the STUDENTS who are, after all, the reason to have a university or conservatory training program to begin with. </p>

<p>The folks at CMU (arguably one of the top ATPs in the country) have done away with the traditional cut system because they think it is counter-intuitive to their goals. The folks at Univ. of Michigan (one of the top musical theater training programs in the country) tell parents and students at audition orientation how negative they think cut programs are, and Michigan gives you, when you visit, a big old list of grads currently working on Broadway and in regional theaters. Minnesota/Guthrie, a very good up and coming program, doesn't cut. Our own doctorjohn, whom I think we all respect highly, has discussed what he deems (unless I have been very mistaken) the drawbacks of cut programs are on this list several times. </p>

<p>What does CCM and DePaul know that CMU, Michigan, Guthrie, NCSA, etc. not know?</p>

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<p>NMR....yes, I thought a discussion forum was to discuss various viewpoints on a topic which is what makes it interesting. I think people are discussing cuts here more than a particular school (though it began with a parent posting about a child cut in one school). I happen to enjoy reading various perspectives from people from all walks of life, various stages of life, various parts of the country and who are affilliated as students or parents or faculty at various colleges. </p>

<p>PS....You pose a question that interests me as well ....in terms of how cuts benefit students. Also, why other highly regarded BFA programs manage to maintain a good reputation and turn out successful actors and yet do not employ cuts.</p>

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<p>When did I become the vociferous defender of cuts? LOL I've only said that's the way it is and a certain type of student wouldn't have it any other way. There are people in the world who actually enjoy Russian Roulette and don't mind being part of a big happy family where Mommy and Daddy are gonna take half the kids out back at the end of the year and lop their heads off. I suppose some thrive artistically under that kind of pressure. They also know that if they survive that they'll have the stamp of approval from a school that will under no circumstances graduate an actor for whom they have to make excuses. Maybe some just need that kind of fire lit under their asses to work like they should at 18. There was a UA graduate a couple of years ago who I now feel bad for having joined the lynch mob on this topic which essentially badgered him/her right off the forum, but he/she was very committed to that type of system. I can't single out a post that is particularly telling, but go back and read what Goldyfiftyone had to say. I'm not sure I completely agree with this, but Mamamia who is the mother of a DePaul student - now grad, I assume - made this point ...
[quote]
Lots of pros and cons have been discussed, some I agree with, some I don't, but one thing I don't think I've seen addressed is that by taking in 56 or so freshman DePaul allows those "extra" students to prove themselves over many months rather than a five minute audition. For some reason this makes me think of an analogy that may or may not make sense to anyone else - set the scene: the small boy who has been riding the little league bench all year pleads "just let me play coach, just give me a chance" and of course in movie-world he goes on to score the winning run - which he would not have been able to do if not first given the opportunity to at least try. So if DePaul accepts 56 students and then cuts down to 24 or whatever the number, at least they gave those students that they would not have accepted if they only originally accepted 22 a chance to "play and score".

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<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/2875372-post52.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/2875372-post52.html&lt;/a> </p>

<p>I dunno ... I don't attend a cut school so it's hard to say what they're thinking. Any appearance of me being a vociferous defender of the world's cut systems is mostly just me feeling like you guys were ganging up a bit. I know that after I have my MFA in Directing at mid-life and get to build my own program from the ground up, there will certainly not be anything resembling a numbers-based cut although the threat will be there for any student who starts slacking. Warning, probation, and ... "aut." :)</p>

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<p>One thing I think we'd all agree on....slacking ain't good and if you are a slacker, a BFA is not for you! Some kids have no idea what they are getting into when they enter a BFA and it truly isn't a good fit. Quite a number end up leaving of their own volition.</p>

<p>Anyway, Fish, I found something just now that is rather funny (I hope you see the humor). But you know how you said you would not touch Tisch with a ten foot pole (could that be a "fishing rod"? LOL)? Well, by coincidence, I was trying to find the name of an administrator with whom my D met today at Tisch and when I was looking that up online, I discovered that the Information Center (offices) for the Drama Dept. at Tisch are referred to as "The Fishbowl." Hey, maybe you would fit in after all! :D</p>

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<p>Nuh uhhh!!! Can you get work study in there? LMAO</p>

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<p>Unfortunately, fish, you have a penchant for engaging in revisionism in an effort to justify your actions and words as well as to recaste their clear meaning and intent. While I do not have a desire to belabor this, let's look at the actual seqeunce of the posts starting with your post 98 where you opined that there is a difference between a program that is steeped in the "educational mission" of a school and one that has as its priority the highest levels of "professional training". You further opined that the latter are for "students who want to be pushed way past their current comfort levels on a day to day basis with the singular goal of maximizing their artistic potential and neither want nor need anyone holding their hand and telling them 'it's alright' and how wonderful they are" and included yourself among this elite group, stating "There should be programs for us, too, right?"</p>

<p>I responded in post 102, the first post in which I directly addressed any of your comments. I made clear in the very first sentence that I was not talking about CCM specifically. I then proceeded to state my opinion that a) there is nothing inconsistent between a college's educational mission and the highest levels of artistic training, b) that there is nothing inconsistent between providing a nuturing and supportive environment versus holding students accountable to exacting standards of artistic achievement and c) that the issue as I saw it and understood others to be expressing was the concern over the use of juries not as an educational tool to assist a student to grow but as a tool used for the purpose of eliminating a student from a program. I noted that there is a difference between being eliminated from a program because over time the juries reflected inadequate growth and the use of a jury to eliminate a student regardless of the students individual achievement citing, as examples, juries used to "cut to numbers", as a one shot reaudition or to eliminate existing students to make room for new ones. (And by the way, there are schools that clearly do this as you well know.) There was nothing derogatory about any other school or personally attacking towards you in my post.</p>

<p>You responded in your post 114 in which you continued your characterization of the 2 groups of students, as you see it, those who desire and can handle a real professional training program (as you characterize yourself) and those who would be "crushed" by it and really shouldn't be in one. You then, for whatever reasons drive your psyche, took a shot at Tisch and UArts in order, as you disclose in post 137, to send a message to me and 2 other posters on this thread. It was then, with intent and purpose, that you changed the discourse from one about concepts and differing perspectives to one intended to create conflict. I stand by my earlier characterization of your post 114.</p>

<p>I then responded in 121. If you found my comments to be directed to you personally, then perhaps it is because you recognized your earlier words reflected in them, for I certainly did not mention you by name nor even mention the school which you attend. You followed with your post 131 which, if you want to characterize any of my posts as "over the top", is the quintessenal pot calling the kettle black. But I guess, again, you needed to teach somebody a lesson - like some parents who happen to have a body of knowledge and experience that cause them to have informed views (with which you take issue) and the temerity to express them.</p>

<p>So much for history. Now as to your current post 137, I won't belabor the points already made by NMR and soozievt about this being a discussion board and all which that entails (since that would apparently also disturb you). However, so that there is clarity, there are a few things I will comment on. You are correct, I would not touch a school with an actual "cut system", of any type, with the "ten foot pole" of which you are so fond for a variety of reasons, none of which in general have to do with the quality of training that those who actually remain in the program receive. My reasons have to do with educational philosophy, the educational disruption that a cut causes, the horrific financial impact as the result of loosing a year or 2 of tuition and the well founded conclusion that professional training of equal caliber to that found at any "cut school" can also be obtained at a school that does not cut. I will not name publically those schools which, based on direct and often face to face discussions with students who have attended and with knowledgable professionals, I believe reflect an element of internicine competitiveness that undermines congeniality and collaboration. I have and will share such information privately if requested. And finally, your comment about UArts is not only silly and unfounded but the fact that you again took this tact speaks far more eloquently than your various protests.</p>

<p>With that, I am done belaboring this thread with this type of dialogue with you. If you feel some need to continue it, send me a PM.</p>

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<p>OMG, Please take it to PM's......</p>

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<p>A tip for everyone (and yes, I say this with a friendly wink!);):</p>

<p>No one is <em>obligated</em> to read every single message that is posted here. So if a post seems to a reader to be redundant or to simply belabor a point which has been made already, skip it! :)</p>

<p>:)</p>

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<p>I think I'll just quote myself here ...
[quote]
Actual students in programs have to risk suffering patronizing lectures for offering their points of view from those very familiar with the menu, but who have never tasted the meal.

[/quote]
And no ... Don't be sending me any damn PMs unless you have a question about which you think my candid response might set Michael off again. Seems like some people have a lot of time on their hands ...</p>

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<p>Whoa. Fishbowl, I used to read your posts with admiration and appreciation and I am sorry to say this is no longer the case. Other peoples' opinions are valuable, too. I agree with NMR; this has been an important discussion about an important subject. All perspectives have a right to be voiced. Michael has been articulating my perspective so well that I haven't chimed in. I have not in any way perceived any patronizing from the adults who are involved in the discussion and I believe that in many cases they are very familiar with both the menu and the meal. I also thank Soozievt for her excellent moderation in the discussion.</p>

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<p>Babar...thanks. My posts are not an attempt to moderate the discussion, however. I am simply participating both as a parent of a BFA student and as a college counselor who assists those who are selecting and applying to colleges for musical theater and drama. I'm voicing my own personal opinions and not a neutral position in my posts. </p>

<p>I agree with you that it is an important subject and a valuable discussion (and yes, full of viewpoints and opinions which is what a discussion board is, after all) and hope that those who are new to the BFA admissions process, will come away with some questions of their own to pursue when researching schools in order to find the right match for themselves. </p>

<p>This board is interesting in that we have a wide variety of perspectives and viewpoints represented. Thanks for your input and support.</p>

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<p>NMR, I guess I opened myself up to that one but believe me after the first couple sentences of the posts between those two....I'm gone.</p>

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<p>LOL! As someone who is pretty darned verbose myself (OK: long-winded!) I can't criticize others for doing what I do myself. (What can I say? Some of us are just, um, compulsively communicative! :)) </p>

<p>Just remember: skim and/or skip! SAOS!! That can be all of our mottos. ;)</p>

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<p>No one has commented on fishbowl's post #143, which I think is one of the most interesting, regarding the quote about DePaul's cut system. (I don't know how to do the quote box thing.) It's the first time I've seen a reasonable explanation of why some schools have a cut system.</p>

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<p>The thing is that the quote from the DePaul parent is from a previous thread on which there already were responses but we can recycle. :D</p>

<p>I'll comment. I don't agree with that reasoning and philsophy. The idea in the quote is that they gave 52 kids an opportunity to try and then picked 26 to keep (after one year of schooling and thousands of dollars, LOL). They gave them more than a "five minute audition." I think there are alternatives to that same goal of giving kids opportunities. </p>

<p>One, though less practical, is a much longer than five minute audition. Many programs seem able to pick who can succeed in their programs through to graduation and so it is possible. And at all schools, there is some attrition where students realize it is not for them. But all would have the opportunity to audition. Their audition and admissions process may need refining. </p>

<p>Two, another process could be to take students in as freshmen as BA students and then after a year, audition them into a BFA track. If the students do not get into the BFA, they have the opportunity to continue their studies in theater in the BA. Several schools do this in some form....such as Chapman, Fullerton, Hofstra, UC Santa Barbara, and also Northwestern has an audition after a year for the MT Certificate program (though not a BFA). While I would have my own hesitations to enter a college hoping to be in the audition based BFA with no guarantees, it still is a more honest approach (in my opinion) than accepting all these students into a BFA with the intent to cut half after a year. They could all enter a theater program as freshmen and have an audition to get into a more advanced track (BFA) after a year but in the end, all stay in the theater program in one or the other track. The student's education is not cut short in May. No money is lost either. </p>

<p>Three, I think they give these students a disservice by taking them in when they don't intend to keep them because conceivably, many of these students were admitted to other programs where they COULD stay and thus have an "opportunity." This school isn't truly guaranteeing a four year opportunity. The time for "selection" is during the admissions process, like all colleges do. And there needs to be standards for passing, like all colleges have. </p>

<p>The thing about DePaul's cut policy is that it is by numbers. And so they are going to cut 24 no matter what and what if 29 have proven themselves to be good enough for the "team"? Oops, too bad. So, it is not all based on effort and talent.</p>

<p>Another rationale that we often read about cuts is that it is like "the real world of theater". If we go by that reasoning, then in the real world, they don't accept some to give them a chance to try. They honestly select at the point of casting (equivalent to frosh admissions/auditions) who they feel has what it takes. It is not a foolproof selection but that is how it is done. They don't take extras to give them a chance. They take who they feel will be good and they sure have their pick of the litter. The try outs are as freshmen. If a kid doesn't make it into a program, it doesn't mean they won't have opportunities. They can attend a BA school. They can get other training. They can reaudition. And in many cases, if DePaul rejects them, another school might give them an opportunity. Should Harvard take double the amount of kids, including those with 2.5 GPAs and 1000 CR/M SATs to give them a chance and then see after a year who can stay and who can't? There is a school for everyone. If one school can't take you, another will. That is the reality of life. I don't think schools owe you a chance to try the school out. What I think they DO owe you, is an education and to see you through for four years, unless you are flunking out or have not achieved whatever min. level standard they have in order to be promoted to the next year and to graduation.</p>

<p>While I personally do not agree with the philosophy inherent in these cut practices, I have to say that these programs are excellent and there are plenty of kids who are happy to apply and attend and so it hardly matters if I prefer a cut program or not as each person must make a choice for him/herself.</p>

<p>As NMR asked earlier, I wonder why other highly regarded BFA programs manage to have stellar reputations and turn out successful actors without a cut system. It seems it can be done. </p>

<p>PS...DePaul is candid about their cut policies and so the information is upfront to weigh.</p>

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<p>Re: the cut system allowing kids more of a chance to prove themselves than they get in the garden variety five minute audition. Some programs, such as Juillliard and Minnesota's Guthrie Actor Training Program, solve this problem by selecting a pool of applicants through their five-minute auditions and then calling those kids "back" for a weekend of auditions and workshops. The callback weekend allows the kids to work more closely with the faculty and the faculty to see the kids in a variety of situations, including social situations. Based on the rep of Juilliard (which has done away with its cut system, by the way, as the new head of the ATP believes strongly that the cut system creates a negative atmosphere of fear and is counter to cultivating creativity) and the rising rep of the Guthrie program, this works out well for them.
My question still stands: what benefits to students does a cut system provide that cannot be provided another way? I honestly and truly want to know! (And because tone is hard to gauge via the written word, please be assured that I am not saying this in a snotty or challenging way. I am sure that the programs which maintain the cut system believe that they have sound reasons for its existence and I understand how the cut system benefits the program/power structure/administration. I would just like to know how the cut system benefits the students.)</p>

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<p>I guess the only way we are going to get an answer to NMR's question is to ask someone from one of the schools that has that type of cut program. And they don't seem to be participating in this forum. And what if they did come up with a good explanation? Would it change anyone's mind? Probably not.</p>

<p>So it comes down to this -- do your research and find out what the cut policy is. If you don't like the policy, don't apply to that school. If you're not attending the school, you don't have to agree with their policy!</p>

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<p>I appreciate that Soozie understands a parent's view of the cut system. As a parent who is spending the money on the college, and who has spent the time and money on the auditions getting into some MT program, I absolutely do not want a cut system. The chances of success are small enough in this business, and there is little enough security in it. I am looking for a relative safe haven for 4 years before my kid goes out into this tough scene. If he decides during that time that it is not for him, that is one thing, but I have not desire to have to fund another set of auditions because the school has a jury or audition system in place that will cut him despite doing satsifactorially in class. You can teach anyone MT. To make them into a success professionally is a whole different story. My kid is in school to learn as much as he could and develop as well as he could in school before going into the audition world. Even if he does not end up being in show biz, he can become an interested and informed member of the audience, which is important for the business as well.</p>

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<p>What needs to be kept in mind is that what is being discussed is a cut system within the context of a college based program, not a stand alone studio program. There is therefore a dynamic of educational expectations at play no different in many respects from any college and any major in which most parents expect that in return for the significant investment of resources they commit, once their kid is accepted and decides to matriculate at a school, there is a concomitant responsibility of the school to provide the anticipated educational opportunity leading to a thorough education in the chosen field and a college degree (barring, of course, "for cause" dismissal for misconduct or academic failure as would apply to any college program). The fact that it is a college degree in performing arts designed to provide the training to work professionally is no different in this respect from getting a degree (whether undergraduate or graduate) in any area from which entry into the job market is then launched. If we were talking about getting cut from a studio program outside of a college context, the considerations and expectations would be different.</p>

<p>NMR, I also would be intrigued to hear from a program representative how a cut system benefits students. In the absence of getting a direct response, let me pose this for consideration. When I am negotiating collective bargaining agreements for certain unions that represent certain groups of performing artists, particularly first time contracts or successor agreements in a relatively new bargaining relationship, an issue which almost always arises is under what circumstances and terms the performer can be terminated or reengagement in a subsequent show or series denied and what mechanism will exist for challenging such action. When it comes to traditional forms of misconduct, like lateness or strangling a fellow performer ( ;) ), the issues are fairly easy to address (kind of akin to getting booted from a college program for misconduct or screwing up academically).</p>

<p>Where the issue becomes much more difficult to grasp and resolve is where adverse employment action is taken based on the "artistic discretion" of the artistic or music director of the performing arts company or theater. What I hear repeatedly from executive directors, artistic directors and music directors is that they need unfettered discretion to determine whether a performer stays or goes so as to control the artistic quality of their production. They further assert that having total artistic control over employment inures to the benefit of the performers who will then be working in an environment of the highest artistic caliber. The countervailing arguments that the performers assert is that permitting incontestable artistic control over employment during the run of a show or series or in deciding on who gets engaged to perform from show to show or series to series permits abuses of subjective discretion, enables personal favoritism and often results in arbitrary and capricious decisions. The performers also assert that in an ensemble of committed professionals, there is little tolerance for a performer who is screwing up due to a lack of commitment and that there is also compassionate candor towards a performer who due to age or injury is no longer capable of performing at an appropriate professional level. Typically, these issues get resolved by working out some type of system under which the performers are given progressive notice of artistic issues, opportunities to remediate their performing and ultimately a mechanism to subject managements artistic discretion in employment action to review by an outside arbitrator or a joint peer review committee. What always makes it difficult to achieve balanced solutions, however, is where there is an unwillingness of management to give up a degree of control and, more times than anyone cares to admit, the "artistic temperament" and egos involved. </p>

<p>In many ways I think this parallels the discussion of cuts, juries and opportunities for students to have notice of performance based issues with opportunities to take remedial action. With respect to the question of how program administrators justify a cut system and the benefit that such a system confers on students, I suspect what you would hear is not much different than what I hear from the executive directors, artistic directors and music directors who I sit across from at the negotiating table. (We need to have absolute control and discretion over the artistic talent in our program to maintain the highest standards of artistry and doing so will enhance the performance of the students we keep.) And, just as I encounter in the professional world, I suspect there is a good bit of reluctance to give up control, "artistic temperament" and ego that makes the directors of cut programs resistant to giving up cut systems - after all they too are artists now in management positions. What makes them any different than the real world? Nothing, at least not until there is a recognition and comfort with the understanding that in the educational context there are certain educational values to be served and that those educational values can be served without compromising "professionalism". </p>

<p>The big difference of course is that I am dealing with the world of employment where employer companies and theaters are paying for artistic excellence in contrast to an educational setting where students and their parents are paying the school 10's of thousands of dollars as part of an "educational contract". If unfettered artistic discretion is inappropriate in the former and executive directors, artistic directors and music directors can live with restrictions and limitations on their discretion and still put on professional productions of the highest caliber, why can't schools achieve their artistic and training goals in the absence of the kind of cut systems we have been talking about? The answer, of course, is they can - in many of the ways that have been suggested by soozie and NMR.</p>

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<p>My heart goes out to the OP and any others that have been cut. If the rules were not passing 2 boards and you are cut, it seems that advance notice was given. It would have been nice if instructors prior to the 2nd board would have given a headsup indicating any doubt of passing it. Or knowing the audition process for transfer if these schools would keep the students for the term but let them know they really have to audition elsewhere or be at risk of having a gap year.</p>