<p>Hey. I'm an upcoming junior in high school this year and I'm starting to look at colleges. I'm planning on majoring in musical theatre and don't want to go to a program that has a cut system. What schools do cut? I'm looking at universities and conservatorys that have a 4year program and a senior showcase in new york. Thank you!</p>
<p>I think if you do a search for “cut policies” you might be able to come up with some old threads about them. Same with senior showcase. I can’t help with other schools, but my son is a MT major at the University of Michigan, and they do not have a cut policy, and they do showcase in NYC.</p>
<p>Thank you. I already searched and couldnt find anything and the list of schools with senior showcase is on the FAQ webpage. U of M is my top choice, but it’s so hard to get into, I need to have other chioces too. COngrats on him getting in!</p>
<p>There may or may not be a single thread that lists schools with a “cut policy”… but if you read through the threads that do come up you will start to get a more complete picture.</p>
<p>Generally a school with a “cut policy” is a school that INTENDS to cut a certain number of students from the program… In other words they accept 28, but only intend to graduate 14, so 14 or the students who start the program as freshmen will be cut before they graduate.</p>
<p>Many schools will let students go from the program if they are not making appropriate progress, or exhibiting effort. These schools are not usually considered schools with a cut policy.</p>
<p>Many schools will also have some sort of a sophomore year evaluation in order to be passed into the upper level courses in the program. Some of these schools will require students who do not pass the evaluation to retake certain courses, and give them the opportunity to try again. Other schools may move students into a BA track that does not include upper level courses work.</p>
<p>Finally – in terms of showcases, it is a good idea to ask each individual school how they choose the students who will participate in the showcase. Depending on the size of the program not all graduating seniors will be given the opportunity to perform in the showcase. If this is something that is very important in your selection process you will want to make sure that all seniors who graduate from the program are able to participate in the showcase (rather than an audition being required to participate).</p>
<p>We went to UMich for auditions and heard Dr. Wagner’s compelling point for not cutting anyone who is accepted to the program. And from the perspective of the student and their parents who are on the sad side of that decision, there’s a lot to dislike about being cut.</p>
<p>Let me just offer a counterpoint.</p>
<p>A big time varsity sports program, such as Michigan football or Duke basketball, is not unlike a big time theatre program. In almost every case, student athletes are preparing themselves in the low probability hope of pursuits at an even more competitive level after graduation. More than one player competes for every position in training camp, and decisions are often razor thin. Practices, dance/acting classes, performances, auditions, games, playoffs, showcases, drafts… I believe the similarities are far greater than the differences. Cuts are more the exception than the rule in college MT, while they are the mandate in (again-- big time) varsity collegiate sports programs. To make the team, an athlete could choose to spend extra hours in the weight room, or working on skills in the gym alone, instead of more pleasing pursuits. Similarly, the MT can spend more or less individual time perfecting the three disciplines. The argument could be made that an athlete might “play to the coaches” in order to get in the starting lineup, but doesn’t that ring a little hollow? Similarly, an actor could be said to “play it safe” in order to not get cut, but I’d like to give the MT faculties more credit than that. </p>
<p>From a completely psychological point of view, I believe a cut program- or at least the specter of stick as well as carrot, serves to motivate behavior for most and yields better results for the individual as well as the program as a whole. Elsewhere on CC I read an interesting perspective, that the “losers” when a program brings a substandard showcase performer to New York are everyone else on the stage at the time, as well as, by association, other recent and future graduates of the program.</p>
<p>As I promote the giving of letter grades in schools and trophies only to the championship team, I believe some form of meritocracy in college MT serves to motivate strivers to get more out of themselves during the critical final preparation phase of their nascent careers. I know many disagree, and I respect that opinion as well; it just seemed that the other side of the issue was not well articulated. Every kid finds motivation in different ways, and there is more than one path to the Great White Way, but let it not be said that this is a black and white topic.</p>
<p>Broadway Bound- University of AZ is a cut school unless procedures have changed since 06.</p>
<p>There has been some semantic disagreement in what constitutes a cut program on CC. Some define it as cutting to a number, such as a maximum number they want on stage at the showcase, or the maximum number of upperclassmen in advanced courses.</p>
<p>Other programs will use the above definition to say that they do not employ cuts, but do have one or more weighty evaluation prior to Junior or Sophomore year, after which time those who do not meet certain baseline levels of achievement or improvement are put on a path of consequences. These can include an opportunity for retaking the evaluation after some period of time, a mandatory semester or more away from school, or being required to permanently unenroll. CCM, BoCo, and Carnegie Mellon are in this general category, and my above post might help to explain the purpose, but you should ask each school for specifics, as well as showcase details.</p>
<p>Also worth commenting on is your desire to find a school with no cuts and with a New York showcase. If you define the mid-degree evaluation programs as being “cut schools,” then as my earlier post alluded, you might want to prioritize which is most important- the no-cut policy or the showcase. The presence of a filtering process beyond the short audition for HS seniors can contribute greatly to the reputation of the showcase; not all agents and directors attend all showcases.</p>
<p>UMich and Ithaca also both have extensive sophomore evaluation processes. UMich’s is not designed to end in cuts, and while Ithaca’s sometimes does, they don’t always cut people.</p>
<p>Unless this has changed recently, Syracuse has a sophomore evaluation, and students audition for the senior showcase. I believe that most students who do not pass their evaluation the first time are given the opportunity to retake classes and evaluate again. Students who are not able to pass the evaluation are moved into the BS un drama track, which does not include upper level performance course work. This is not generally referred to as a cut program because they are not trying to get the class down to a predetermined specific number, students are given the opportunity to try again, and students still graduate from Syracuse with a degree in drama.</p>
<p>The Hartt School is a “non cut” school</p>
<p>“Generally a school with a “cut policy” is a school that INTENDS to cut a certain number of students from the program… In other words they accept 28, but only intend to graduate 14, so 14 or the students who start the program as freshmen will be cut before they graduate”. I have to admit I never heard of this type of “cut system” before. Does this mean the school will cut 14 students even if they are talented? </p>
<p>A cut system is not always a bad thing. If in the eyes of the faculty the student will not succeed in MT performance, it allows the student enough time to shift direction and choose another field of study. I don’t believe the intent is to be a “dream crusher” and I have to believe that being cut is probably in the best interest of the student.</p>
<p>Good Luck wherever you get in.</p>
<p>beenthereMTdad said :</p>
<p>“A cut system is not always a bad thing. If in the eyes of the faculty the student will not succeed in MT performance, it allows the student enough time to shift direction and choose another field of study. I don’t believe the intent is to be a “dream crusher” and I have to believe that being cut is probably in the best interest of the student.”</p>
<p>Me: I respectfully disagree. Just because the faculty or a few teachers at one school think a student doesn’t have what it takes doesn’t make that a definitive decision that guarantees that the student won’t be marketable and able to get jobs. This isn’t about MT, but I read that teachers told Tom Hanks that he would never make it as an actor, and the rest is history. Had Tom Hanks allowed one teacher’s (or group of teachers’) opinion influence his ambition and drive, we would not have one of our greatest actors. </p>
<p>Let’s face it, too: getting into and staying in an MT program through to graduation is far from an guarantee that an actor comes out and will work. If that’s true, then the reverse is true, and being cut is not a guarantee that an actor didn’t have the right stuff.</p>
<p>I strongly believe that, except in extreme cases where students truly do not have the skill set (and one wonders why they were admitted in the first place) or where students don’t come to class or try or have bad attitudes, college programs have an obligation to help each student come as far as he/she can in four years, and then let the market decide who has the stuff and who doesn’t.</p>
<p>NMR. But we are talking about “Musical Theater” Acting is very subjective. If you can’t sing, you can’t sing, If you can’t dance, you can’t dance. If you can’t play the piano to the level of a concert pianist by the time you are 20, it is a very safe guess that that person will not be making it to the Lincoln Center Stage.</p>
<p>I would think that when a student is in front a promotion board it is the consensus of the entire group that the student be promoted or not. I would also think the board as a whole have seen thousands of students to draw a comparison. </p>
<p>You seem like a really nice person who wants to protect the feelings of every MT student and that is admirable. But sometimes a little tough love is ultimately the best. Besides I bet there are a lot of great directors who could not cut it as a performer!!!</p>
<p>I would enjoy hearing from anyone about a broadway superstar who was told they could not sing.</p>
<p>NMR: This isn’t about MT, but I read that teachers told Tom Hanks that he would never make it as an actor, and the rest is history. Had Tom Hanks allowed one teacher’s (or group of teachers’) opinion influence his ambition and drive, we would not have one of our greatest actors.</p>
<p>Me: The fact that you heard about it would suggest it was important moment for Mr. Hanks. Perhaps he <em>did indeed</em> allow one teacher’s (or group of teachers’) opinion to influence his ambition and drive, and got down to business. We may have one of our greatest actors not in spite of, but because of the critique. Guessing those teachers did not see the Tom Hanks in that semester that the world has come to know.</p>
<p>Also a clarification: CCM is not a cut school, their “boards” now bear the consequence for those not passing of audition ineligibility for the next quarter’s production.</p>
<p>I think that fewer and fewer schools use the model where they accept more students then they are prepared to graduate knowing that they will cut some students even if they are talented and making progress. There used to be more schools that did this. </p>
<p>On the faq link on the top of this site there is a great explanation of the philosophy and history of cut programs… [Colleges</a> For Musical Theater Major Discussion FAQ](<a href=“Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos”>Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos)</p>
<p>Hm, here we go again about the pro’s and con’s of cuts :D. I will say this, I used to be a big “fan” of cut programs, naively thinking that this would effectively weed out anyone who had no talent, or was not committed, cut class etc. etc. </p>
<p>Since then I have learned of some very hardworking and talented people, who were cut from their programs, not because of lack of talent, or lack of commitment, but simply because a department head with decision making power held a personal grudge. Both people I am referring to specifically, thankfully landed at other well regarded, and highly competitive programs.</p>
<p>Of course one could say that “they learned a valuable lesson by getting cut, and chose to clean up their act” or something like that. But I have a really difficult time believing that these kids were “trouble makers” to begin with. </p>
<p>I am not so sure anymore that cuts are necessary altogether. Even though the audition process is fast paced and it may not be easy to “read” all talent and attitude correctly, at the end of the day, isn’t it true that grades still speak volumes? If someone cuts class, wouldn’t it affect their grades? I know my kid missed class for some auditions, and sure enough it affect her grade some in a particular class. Also, if someone is not making any progress in a particular class, shouldn’t the related grades reflect that, and wouldn’t you expect there to be a meeting with a counselor if things would get to a certain point? Do you really need something as extreme as a cut? Wouldn’t you think someone will reconsider their path if they receive low grades across the board?</p>
<p>Anyway, just some food for thought :D.</p>
<p>There have been many threads on this forum regarding the issue of cut policies and who has them, various types and degrees of cuts, and pros/cons. I know I have participated in many such threads. I will comment on a few things I read on this thread though. </p>
<p>BeenthereMTDad wrote:</p>
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<p>You were referring to NMR’s post #12. I am not NMR of course, but I agree with all she wrote in that post. I do not believe her rationale is to protect the feelings of a MT student but more to do with a philosophy of education and I see it as she does. When someone enters a college program, they are there to get an education. Of course if they are failing, not attending classes and so on, all schools have policies about that. But if a student is doing the work, the student should be allowed to continue and finish his or her education. They can be advised about whether this is the right path for them and so forth but if they wish to study this field, so be it. They were accepted and are doing the work entailed to earn a degree. So what if the person may not have the talent to make it? Many who even have the talent will not make it in this field. There are no guarantees. This is true of any college major. </p>
<p>But one can major in something, get a degree and if they do not go on to get a job in that exact field, they may get a related job. For instance, someone with a degree in MT may end up teaching in a children’s theater program with this background. The market will decide who makes it and who doesn’t. </p>
<p>If the student is doing their job as a student, they should be permitted to attain the degree and go from there. It has nothing to do with protecting their “feelings.” College and education isn’t about weeding out who may be successful in that field or not. It is an education and simply a college major. A degree can be a great background to many sorts of jobs anyway.</p>
<p>And it is subjective whether teachers think a particular student will make it in this field on stage. And what if they don’t? So, they don’t. Many won’t make it and will be extremely talented! The MT degree is not a ticket to a job. It is an education. The rest remains to be seen for everyone, no matter their level of talent. </p>
<p>If a program accepts someone and has an audition to get in, their job is to nurture and educate that student to achieve to the best of their abilities as long as that person is putting in the effort and making the grade. They can advise the student about their path but it is up to the student which major to stay in or not as long as they are passing.</p>
<p>It isn’t about protecting feelings, as critiques and evaluations are part of all educational processes. I have a kid who just got a BFA and she went through many evaluations along the way. I have a kid earning a MArch degree right now and she has constant critiques that are subjective as well and grueling. She works her butt off and deserves to get the degree in my view. Nobody is protecting her feelings along the way though. My kids do well in school and I hope they make it in their respective fields but I don’t expect their schools to cut them and decide whether they will get work or not in their fields. It all remains to be seen (though my BFA kid who just graduated is gainfully employed in her field from the day she graduated I am happy to say). </p>
<p>Seat filler wrote:
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<p>If you were talking about HIGH SCHOOL, I would agree with you…where making varsity team in a sport is like being cast in shows. However, I completely disagree in the analogy you are making on the college level. In college, varsity sports are an EXTRACURRICULAR activity. The MT program is a college DEGREE program. If someone is cut from the team for a sport, they still can stay in college and earn their degree in their chosen field of study (if they are doing the work and making the grade). In most college majors, if you are passing, you may earn the degree in your field of study. Being cut from a MT program should be an analogy to another field of study…Biology, English, Political Science, etc…and not an EC activity! I can’t think of other college majors that cut you unless you are not passing. They don’t cut based on talent or chances of making it in those fields. Simply, the person earns a college degree and after that, the market decides who will get particular jobs.</p>
<p>An education is not purely job training for ONE particular job anyway. It is an education that will serve someone well in life and make them employable in many types of jobs. A person with a MT degree can do all sorts of work and not just perform on stage. </p>
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<p>Many students in BFA in MT programs are self motivated. I know my kid is. She doesn’t need a carrot stick to motivate her. She doesn’t do the work to get a grade but because she has high standards for herself and is driven. While not all students are like this, I realize, this is part of college admissions…not just an audition but to examine a student’s grades and recommendations as to the type of learner and worker a person is and if they have the drive and motivation and effort to do a BFA program. The kind of student who is an appropriate candidate for admissions into a BFA program should have a certain work ethic and drive to be admitted as that is what it takes to succeed in such a rigorous program. External rewards should not be needed if they accept the kind of student who has motivation. If the student is not motivated, then I expect their grades to demonstrate lack of work and they will flunk out. However, some of these cut programs are not about motivation or lack thereof but about an assessment of talent and who certain faculty believe will make it professionally. </p>
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<p>There is a way around this, however. A program can agree to graduate every student as long as they are doing the work and passing the grade. However, they can require an audition to get into the showcase. There are some programs that do this. I’m just suggesting this as one way to avoid cuts and allow students to graduate but also to keep the showcase at a certain level. </p>
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<p>For the record, CMU has NO type of cut policy whatsoever and is not akin to BOCO or CCM in this regard.</p>
<p>beenthereMTdad: if someone simply “can’t sing,” then he/she wouldn’t be admitted to a BFA program at all, at least a by audition program, and far as I know, those are the only ones that have “cuts.” </p>
<p>In addition, being a good singer is FAR FROM a guarantee that someone is/will be a successful MT actor or actress. There are lots and lots of fabulous singers who stink as actors and are wooden on stage: you can see them standing there, waiting until they get to burst into song, but you don’t believe them when they are saying their lines/acting. And there are others who are decent singers but wonderful actors who make you believe what they are doing every moment on stage. Which would <em>you</em> cut?</p>
<p>I have to wonder why most high level, reputable programs have gotten rid of the traditional cut system, and by that, I don’t mean the ones that make kids pass juries/evals at certain points. I am referring to programs like DePaul’s, where the school accepts almost twice as many kids as they plan to keep, and where kids who are earning A’s in their acting courses (and academic courses) find themselves out in June of freshmen year, with NO warning. </p>
<p>I think most of the programs have gotten rid of that system because the negatives for students far, far outweigh the positives.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that NO teacher or group of teachers can say, for certain, which students will be successful in the working world and which will not. Many a star from even top level programs has gone on to find he/she cannot make a living in acting or MT and ends up going into a different field, just as many a kid who was always cast in ensemble (or maybe not cast that much at all) has gone on to a respectable (and sometimes even better) career.</p>
<p>OK, I am done talking about this (you can all heave a sigh of relief)! My own D chose not to audition for programs with traditional cut policies and I supported that. I think it’s the job of the college that she attends to help her go as far as she can go in developing her skill set and knowledge. What happens when she graduates is up to her and luck and circumstances.</p>
<p>NotMamaRose wrote:</p>
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<p>My daughter made that same decision when she applied to college and I also supported that. It is not as if she was worried about being cut or critiqued. I have to say that I don’t believe she would have been cut either in such a program (an educated guess but one never knows!) because she has the work ethic and motivation and I believe she has the talent (I can say the second part there because I am her mom, after all, ha ha, but so far, she has been doing well in her field during college and immediately afterward). But even though she was not worried so much that she’d be cut, it has more to do with an EDUCATIONAL PHILOSOPHY and the ATMOSPHERE that such a program can have. You may notice that CCM has recently revised their policy (though it still has some elements of cuts) and why do you think that is? Many programs no longer have the sort of cut policy CCM has had. I know many students (counting my own kid and NMR’s for starters) who did not apply to CCM, in part, due to their cut/educational philosophy even though it is a well regarded and excellent program otherwise. </p>
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<p>I totally agree. The school has a job to educate. After graduation, who knows what will happen. And that is true even if one had top grades and is very talented. No guarantees for anyone! We’ll just have to cross our fingers because anything can happen. But my daughter does have a college degree and that is a good thing to have for any job and also for her own self as a person.</p>
<p>By the way, due to the nature of this field, one can be employed professionally and that show/job ends and then not be employed for a while…none of the jobs are really permanent ones.</p>
<p>It is important to take into consideration the financial implications. If you are “cut” and audition for other programs you will be going through the process as a transfer and will be starting a new program as a freshman. It is rare to find a school that will accept anything other than gen-ed classes and put you in as a soph or jr. If you enter a school with a “cut” policy think about the “what if”. Are you willing/able to pay for an additional one or two years of schooling?</p>
<p>Go back and read anything you can on this topic before making a decision on weather you can learn and grow in that type of atmosphere.</p>