No one is forced out of the school. They are all offered a slot in the BA Theatre program, or another major. So, they still get a degree, and there was no waste of money. They can still do something in theatre, with a degree. Look, no one hides the review system. It is on the website, talked about at info sessions during auditions, talked about by the current students. If you want to go to a school that can’t remove you from the BFA track, then by all means, don’t apply to Ithaca and a ton of other schools that do the same thing. It’s not like this comes out of the blue. The few kids who are asked to leave the BFA track are warned, each and every semester. They are given a chance to improve. If someone can’t act their way out of a paper bag, why would a school want that person representing the BFA program in the real world? It affects everyone who goes to that program. I agree with @theaterwork that the auditions are not long enough. If I were Queen of the MT audition world, I would take my final list of kids, and schedule an hour-long session with each of them where I could make them sing songs they haven’t practiced; work with other students; cold read scenes, etc. That way there would be fewer mistakes. But who does it help to give someone a BFA in MT if the person cannot possibly compete in the real world? Not the person receiving the BFA, and not the school. So why do it? And, other majors do the same thing. Where my son went to school (majoring in Physics), they went through a process called moderation after their sophomore year where they have to prove their competence in their major. Every student in every major has to do it. If they aren’t good enough, they can try again after they fix their problems, or they have to change majors. It doesn’t benefit anyone to give them a degree in a field they aren’t good at. And that’s the way it should be, IMHO.
Will some kids not cut it in a MT program? Sure. But that’s way different than a cut program where you accept X number of students knowing that you are going to get rid of Y number. I teach undergraduate premed students. Every year we have some students who we have to tell (as gently as possible) that medical school is not the right path and help them find new avenues. But it would be absurd if I had say 10 kids that are all A students and then said: Sorry, but you’ve gone through two years now and despite your stellar academic record we are only going to let 6 kids go on the med school.
In my opinion cut programs regardless of major have no place in a university educational system.
@monkey13 Maybe because they can sing to the rafters or dance like Fred Astaire? We see plenty of that. Now I agree that the skill I care the most about by far when I see is a musical is the acting but you can see plenty of Broadway shows where clearly the acting is not the reason someone is on the stage. I’m more curious about the “representing the BFA program in the real world” comment. Do people think that is what the college is worried about? Also an earlier comment which I noted and didn’t ask about: (paraphrasing from post #7) “what good is a review system if there are no repercussions? If someone is — simply not suited for the work, then they shouldn’t be in the program.” This is another point I find curious. I try to imagine my perspective on that if it were my kid given that message from their program. Would I be so quick to trust its wisdom? Ultimately the market forces will decide whether or not someone is suited for the work. What makes one suitable I assume is a combination of talent, tenacity, connections and a boat load of luck. I’m not sure it’s a college’s job to look into their crystal ball and make that decision for someone that is willing to roll their own dice in this crazy field. Work ethic deficiencies I get and agree and think that is an excellent reason for dismissal but not suited for the work? I’d rather leave that in the hands of the market forces. The sad reality is that all of these programs will pump out students whom are completely suited for the work - who will never work for a living wage. And meanwhile there are people working today who leave you scratching your head over why they heck they are until you read about the connections that they have or other fortunate strokes of luck.
@monkey13, a program that has a jury system/review system isn’t the same thing as the cut system that U of A used to employ. Have a look at the many threads in the U of A dedicated forum and you’ll see that getting good grades, having good attendance records, having a good work ethic and attitude was not enough to prevent some students from being cut. This is the policy that many of us objected to, and warned people against. If U of A no longer has such a terrible policy, then good for them! And if they still do this, then, yes, any prospective student needs to thoroughly inform themselves of the possiblity/likelihood of being cut. If they go in informed and are willing to take such a chance, then, while I think they are incredibly foolish (especially if they have other options), well, at least they knew what kettle of fish they were getting themselves into.
While I know colleges are (justifiably) proud of those who have gone on to success- I would hate to think of schools letting kids go b/c they don’t think the talent level will reflect well on them. Seems cold.
Sorry, @halflokum, I should have put the “act their way out of a paper bag” in quotes. @Calliene said, “But they aren’t going to send you on your way if you are doing the work if for some reason they realize they really probably should have taken that OTHER tall brunette soprano because jeez, how did we not realize you can’t act your way out of a paper bag?” I was just using her example. I’ve seen a ton of Broadway shows, and the only ones I’ve seen with people who can’t act are (sometimes) the ones who use stars from TV for the name…yes, sometimes they are great, but sometimes they are not. I would hazard a guess that if you can’t act, you’re not going to get a big role on Broadway (or any good equity theatre, for that matter). Obviously, if you can dance like Fred Astaire, you are marketable, and I doubt if a school would ask you to leave a program if you have those killer dance skills. I am talking about the people who can’t act, sing, or dance well enough to be marketable. So we’re talking about apples and oranges here.
Do I think the schools “worry” about how their graduates represent them? I’m not sure worry is the right word, but I get your question, and my answer is, I sure hope so. I would hope that my kid’s school wants their graduates to be the best they can be, and represent their program well. Again, not just in MT. I would hope that in ANY good program, they would want and strive for all of their graduates to be competent, if not excellent. Don’t you want the same for your child’s school? I guess we’re going to have to agree to disagree. I think if a school finds that someone is not cut out for the major (or competent in that major), they should have the flexibility to remove them from that major. In any field.
@alwaysamom, I understand the difference between a jury system and a cut program, and I discussed it in one of my posts above (invoking Emerson’s old program, where they used to cut to 16 after sophomore year). But someone else said they thought Ithaca had a cut program, and I was simply trying to explain that Ithaca has a review system, not a cut program, and it kinda took off from there. I agree with you that people should be aware of what their school does, and if they don’t agree with it, don’t apply there. I was only trying to dispel the myth that Ithaca is a “cut program” - it is not. Some people here seem to dislike programs with review systems that have repercussions. Maybe we should talk about the schools in a 3-tired system: 1) cut programs (although after reading about U of A, I’m wondering if any exist anymore); 2) review systems where you may not be allowed to continue on the BFA track; and 3) schools where once you’re in, you’re in, unless you do something illegal. I think, but maybe I am wrong, that the majority of programs fall into the 2nd category.
@monkey13, I’d like to think the program’s worry is limited to their being judicious about who they admit, and thorough in the education that they provide. And if that means admitting Cindy Lou Hou from a solid audition and making her the very best Cindy Lou Hou she will ever be even if somewhere along the way it becomes clear that despite her hard work, she isn’t as talented as others in the group, that the school would still be dedicated to see Cindy through to graduation even if she never is graded above a C+. That seems fair to me.
Now would I deliberately pick a program known for being OK with admitting C+'s? No I wouldn’t. I’d prefer my kid to be stretched by her peers. But some students don’t really hit their stride until later on in the 4 years. I think my daughter finally hit hers at the end of junior year and is building on that this year. Not that I would have expected her to be cut from a program that had a cut, but if she had been in the early years, I think junior year and beyond daughter would have had the last laugh once she got over her tears. Probably there are some non-hypothetical stories like that out there in the universe.
My personal opinion- if a school accepted a kid, and that kid is trying, the school has an obligation to train them. I have students sign up for my ap class who are not cut out for the work. But if they are willing to try, it is my job to help them improve. If we are talking about an MT kid who got a spot at one of these elite programs- how bad could they really be? Not working, or causing problems is a different story. But otherwise- the kid deserves a shot at the education the school offered them.
@16bars, BoCo doesn’t have a cut program, but they do have juries.
So was it determined then that univ of the arts is a cut program? Must’ve missed that post…
@theaterwork , that is U of Arizona, not U of Arts they were referring to.
Over the years, this topic comes up a lot and I have posted a lot on it.
First, I don’t believe in not allowing a student to continue in a BFA track (or any major for that matter), unless they are truly getting failing grades. In other words, I don’t think it is right to not let a student continue just because the school doesn’t think the student has what it takes to make it in MT, etc. I think if a school accepts a student into a program, they should see the student through and the market can decide if the student has what it takes to succeed in that field (and if not, they still have a college degree and studied something of interest). Failing grades in any major should have repercussions. But I think juries should be reviews for feedback, but not for elimination from a program.
I don’t agree that the majority of programs fit into the second category above. Many schools (including my D’s school, NYU/Tisch) have review systems, but do not make anyone discontinue the BFA track or redirect them, etc. There are many schools that once you are in, you are in, unless you are flunking out.
Actually, I can think of such a case that is non-hypothetical. If you read back a number of years ago on the CC MT Forum for U of Arizona, a former student in the program posted who was cut (despite having very good grades). He then was accepted to CMU’s program. He is now very successful in a group with other CMU graduates. He is a friend of my D’s and I have met him. My D has performed with his group in fact. So, last laugh on U of Arizona in this case.
I am waiting for specific confirmation - but I believe I know someone who was redirected away from the BFA at Ithaca and is currently performing on bway…
Lol duh…thanks @halflokum
We had a friend who was “redirected” at Emerson. She was recently in the National Tour of “Nice Work If You Can Get It”.
Thanks @halflokum . I was thinking the same as @theaterwork !
As I said earlier, I don’t believe ANY of the programs have an official “cut program” anymore. I believe Emerson was the last…and that ended couple years ago. However, I have spoken to parents of students in programs (such as Ithaca) who Hem and Haw on the issue. I believe ALL schools have juries, as they should, and all schools have a certain amount of attrition…but when a program has 25 to 50% reduction in size from freshman year to senior year, whether from juries or from attrition, you do have to wonder at those retention rates. Maybe instead of wondering if a school is a “cut school” prospective students and parents should look at the statistics of the program and the retention rate at that school. Some students and parents could be, very understandably, worried about applying to a school where retention rates are notoriously low.
Considering the emotional and monetary effort that is put into applying, visiting and auditioning for a program…some students may be hesitant to go into a program where the retention rate is very low. And it’s not just the money, though that can be significant, but the psychological toll. I have seen, first hand, the the emotional roller coaster kids experience just trying to get into a program…can you imagine the anguish a student feels if they don’t make it through…for whatever reason? I do believe that retention rates SHOULD be considered and weighed when applying to, or accepting an offer from a program…It should be on your spreadsheets, just like, “Urban or rural campus” “large University or small college” “$25,000 or $60,000” “Program retention rate 90% or 50%” It is one factor that, yes, should be considered.
D asked about attrition rates for all programs which seriously interested her. Honestly, it was hard to get a response other than something along the lines of, “Nearly all stay in the program and graduate. Of course, a few decide MT is not for them, or they leave for personal reasons. But, we’re committed to helping you succeed.” A couple places offered percentages, but they were invariably high. Maybe it was just the programs we looked seriously at; we looked at many, though. (Neither Emerson not Ithaca made it to this point on D’s list, though.)
Well Sutton Foster left CMU because she had so many darn performing offers, so there’s that. People have personal reasons, which can’t be attributed to the program. A fairer question might be, “how many on average are asked to leave the program or move to a different major each year?” Even if it is one or two, you go in knowing it could be you. Someone above said (paraphrasing, and I don’t know how to do the gray highlight thingy), “If they got into one of these program over hundreds of other applicants, how bad could they be?” Bingo. Enough to cause the emotional toll/trauma that would undoubtedly go along with the decision? My daughter’s school also has a BA program and in this discussion I’ve gone down the path in my head to wondering how she would feel if she were told she had to leave the BFA. I truly think she would be devastated and embarrassed, even with warning. Not sure she would even want to do it and stay at the school. Kudos to the kids who do. I guess some schools, to preserve their reputation, feel this is worth it, and maybe they feel they are helping the kid to lower their expectations of how far they could get in the field, but I’m in the pool of letting the market figure that out, and it’s not worth the emotional toll undoubtedly inflicted on a kid who is otherwise not failing, not to mention the anxiety everyone must go through wondering if they will be the next. I too want my kid stretched and challenged by peers, and hope that when the school goes after their 3%, she ends up with just that, but I’m sure there is an oops here and there. But again, how bad can they be? And yes, it is a cruel hard business, but it is still one where you can find your place and be successful while not performing (and in reality, MANY of these kids, even the shining stars, will end up doing just that), so IMHO pushing them down or out at 19 or 20 is not worth the ramifications of that decision. Yup, agreeing to disagree.
Actually, I take it back; Ithaca did make it to the “ask the attrition rate” point (and they had that general answer); they just didn’t make D’s final list.