Agree that getting real numbers for attrition rates and being able to interpret them in a meaningful way would really difficult. And I don’t think it is because the schools are trying to hide anything it’s just that that it would be very difficult for a program to tease out the difference between students leaving because of things specific to the program offering and students who leave for reasons that have nothing directly to do with the program.
Location is one of those things. I know some students leave NYU because they really can’t handle life in the big city. And not to pick on Ithaca which is a terrific program, I know a student who was unhappy there from day one largely due to the location. Indirectly, location is part of both programs so it would be something to factor in with your eyes wide open. But directly, location has nothing to do with the program’s quality nor its level of commitment to help a student succeed.
Anyway, there are plenty of reasons for attrition that have nothing directly to do with the program but I think forced attrition is a direct cause that can be measured. If it is part of a program, accept that it is there. We did that with the decision to apply to both Emerson (which had a cut program at the time) and Ithaca. However in hindsight, I question the need and effectiveness of fear of being forced out as a motivator for an otherwise hardworking and capable student. I know in my daughter’s program you can certainly be out by not making the grade but otherwise not. That doesn’t mean people don’t leave or switch to other studios for advanced training for a variety of reasons. But as far as what would motivate someone to keep improving goes, doing well in a revered instructor’s class seems to be enough to light the fire. As I’ve mentioned before, “A’s” are very rarely handed out in Tisch so when you finally get one, it’s pretty powerful. I don’t think fear would provide any value add over and above the praise of a instructor you worship.
Do schools try to have a sort of “exit interview” to gauge these things? I would think they would want to know why a student was leaving (and keep that information compiled somewhere).
I think most schools would try to reach out to students who are leaving to find out why. How successful they are at tracking all students I would-be less sure of. And I’d bet such info is used more for internal purposes, I’d say it is unlikely to be shared with prospective students / parents
Emerson told us the national average attrition rate in BFA MT programs was 10%. I have NO idea if this is accurate or where they got that number. I do know, for my D’s class, the attrition rates thus far. The entering freshman class of MTs was 26. Two moved from MT to acting (I believe one was voluntary and the other was asked to move. Both are still Acting majors). Three left of their own accord for personal reasons; one after freshman year; 2 after 1st semester of sophomore year. No one was discontinued, and since they are past that stage as juniors, no one will be discontinued. Not sure whether to calculate the people who moved to Acting as part of the attrition…but you have the raw numbers. In her year’s acting class, 2 were discontinued (one during freshman year, one at the end of sophomore year; both have stayed in the BA program), and 1 left for personal reasons. I THINK that’s it. And there were 31 Acting majors incoming their freshman year. So…there you have it. Real numbers for one year (yes, just a snapshot). So it is approximately 10%, give or take. But people leave for all sorts of reasons…they get jobs, they don’t like the program or the location, health reasons, they decide they don’t want to do a BFA, financial reasons, they decide they like directing better, etc.
Ithaca does, however, does have more than 1 transfer from NYU-NSB this year. And according to them, the attrition rate at NSB was extremely large last year. Again…I have no firsthand knowledge of this, and I actually have a hard time believing there was such a large exodus from such a well-respected program. But if there is a kernel of truth hiding in there, it sounds like NYU-NSB had a larger than 10% attrition rate.
@monkey13, I’m not sure how you are calculating attrition rate. If you only count students who were asked to leave the program, forcibly switched into other majors or who just left of their own accord, both 4/26 or 7/57 are more than 10%. In any given year in NYU NSB, the forced out or to forced switch majors number is 0% unless someone is flunking out. Some number do leave of the BFA track of their own accord but very few leave NYU altogether.
I’m happy to report that there is truth in the hearsay that you are passing along about a year of high attrition out of NYU NSB. That would be the year that New Studio on Broadway (NSB) announced that they were phasing out their straight acting track and switching to a MT studio only. This was because Strasberg Studio was once again affiliated with NYU so there was no need for an additional acting studio. The acting track at NSB was going to be continued until the current students graduated, but no new acting only students were to be added to the program. Many students who had already completed their primary training (the first 2 years) opted to switch to other studios and who can blame them I’d have bugged out too. Luckily the program is large enough to absorb them elsewhere.
To provide my own “real numbers for one year (yes just a snapshot),” over in MT land, my daughter’s class had 61 they started with. One left NYU all together by sophomore year. Two decided during freshman year to switch to an academic semester but stayed at NYU. One of those two returned to the MT program after an academic year and is currently one year behind in studio training but by credits is still a senior and will graduate this spring with her original class. After sophomore year (the end of primary training) many students switched to other studios for advanced training like Stonestreet for camera acting work. That studio is only for the advanced training years (junior and senior) and is a popular one to switch to for rounding out one’s training. Some of those who switched to other advanced training studios junior year have returned to NSB MT for senior year. This flexibility is a featured part of the BFA Drama program at Tisch and is considered a unique and positive benefit of the program. Switching studios is not a considered a bad thing nor a reflection of the program one leaves behind in any way.
So as I said before, it’s impossible to calculate actual attrition (leaving the school or leaving the BFA drama program altogether) in Tisch’s MT program because it is flexible. You can take academic semesters and come back to studio, switch to other studios, and also come back after you switched. But by basic math, no… there were not greater than 6 people which would be necessary out of 61 to be larger than 10% who left any form of Tisch BFA drama study all together or NYU all together. I can’t report about other years without that being hearsay.
@halflokum, you sound angry. I was not implying anything…I had heard (and I said it was hearsay b/c I had no personal knowledge) from this student that far more students left the program than you mentioned. I didn’t believe the numbers (they were MUCH bigger than what you mentioned). I was told that it was kids either transferring or moving to a non-BFA major at NYU, not switching studios. I believe your D is in my D’s year, no? So this was from the current sophomores, not the current juniors. So, not your D’s class, maybe? Again, the numbers did not sound right to me.
RE: Ithaca, the two kids moving from MT to Acting did not leave the BFA program (Acting and MT together), so it would be 5/57, which is indeed around 10%. That’s how I was calculating the approximately 10%. If you calculate it separately, Acting would have a 1/31 NET attrition rate, b/c although you had 3 leave, you had 2 move in; MT would have had a higher attrition rate at 5/26.
Each year is different, of course. The current sophomore MT class had one person discontinued after first semester freshman year, and no one else leaving from similarly sized MT and acting classes. So their attrition rate is 1/50ish.
Yes, it is very difficult to calculate, and I don’t think - in most cases - it reflects on the schools. Of course, the attrition rate for non-BFA kids (regular majors) is anywhere from 1% to 42% after freshman year, depending on the school (according to US News and World Report). And I have read it is on the rise nationally. I would assume some of that (if not much of it) has to do with money, and the same would hold true for the BFA kids (i.e., that money plays a role in whether they stay or go, or transfer to a cheaper alternative).
The year sutton foster left Carnegie they had a 10% attrition rate. (Since their my class is generally 10-12 people) doesn’t seem to have hurt either one of them
Angry? No. I’m am puzzled why you bothered to report random hearsay about NYU NSB. Not sure what your intentions were there. Saying it’s hearsay but then saying it anyway is not the same thing as not saying it at all. Had I just left you to have the last word, the implication would have lingered with a particular flavor. There was actually a story behind it and I stepped in to clear it up. I’ve posted plenty of dirt on Tisch NSB in the past and I’m sure I will again. No program is a panacea.
We need to avoid hearsay in this forum when we can. @Monkey13 I actually personally know one of the MT students who left your daughter’s year at Ithaca. This student went to HS with my son and is acquainted through theatre with my daughter. I have spoken to this student myself about their experience at Ithaca so I’ve heard what I’ve heard from the horse’s mouth. An unhappy student and I suspect one whose tale would not necessarily match what a happy student might report. I’ve never posted a word about what this student told me because I don’t feel like their perspective would necessarily provide a balanced view of what otherwise I assume is an excellent program. It doesn’t mean this unhappy student’s perspective isn’t valid but if I had introduced it, I would not be able to fully explain the nuances because it is not my story to tell.
I think the forum is better off letting you and others with direct experience at Ithaca tell the story. The same should apply to any program when it comes to hearsay. My daughter is a year ahead of your daughter. She is a senior. I knew what class you were talking about for NSB and directed my comments accordingly.
I graduated with a BFA in Musical Theatre in 2009 from Millikin. There was a cut program after Freshman year. Out of the 21 of us originally accepted into the program 7 actually graduated with BFA’s in MT. They did cut “redirect” a good handful of students even after Freshman year if they didn’t think we’re progressing at their expectations… Or if you got on someone’s bad list. My roommate was cut AFTER first semester SENIOR year. Yup that’s right, one semester away from graduating. She was COMPLETELY devastated and swore off theatre for the rest of her life.
I graduated with a BFA in Musical Theatre in 2009 from Millikin. There was a cut program after Freshman year. Out of the 21 of us originally accepted into the program 7 actually graduated with BFA’s in MT. They did cut “redirect” a good handful of students even after Freshman if they didn’t think we’re progressing at their expectations… Or if you got on someone’s bad last. My roommate was cut AFTER first semester SENIOR year. Yup that’s right, one semester away from graduating. She was COMPLETELY devastated and swore off theatre for the rest of her life.
graduated with a BFA in Musical Theatre in 2009 from Millikin. There was a cut program after Freshman year. Out of the 21 of us originally accepted into the program 7 actually graduated with BFA’s in MT. They did cut “redirect” a good handful of students even after Freshman year if they didn’t think you were progressing at their expectations… Or if you got on someone’s bad last. My roommate was cut AFTER first semester SENIOR year. Yup that’s right, one semester away from graduating. She was COMPLETELY devastated and swore off theatre for the rest of her life.
Wow @MTinLA that’s a lot of kids cut. Especially sad for your roommate! That’s SO not right. Being a senior and all…awful . Surely they would have known before then if he/she wasn’t up to par.
I can’t imagine being that student who was cut senior year or being the mother of that student. What a shame!
Briefly going back to an earlier discussion on attrition rates and people transferring to other programs, I think it’s important to point out directly for people auditioning this year and in the future that people do transfer from program to program (hopefully, no more than once–can you imagine going through auditions more than once or twice–shudder), no matter what the perceived “tier” of the program. Just in D’s freshman class at UArts, there are a couple transfer students from other programs; one is considered “top tier” programs; I don’t know/remember about the other(s). I bet there are UArts transfers at other schools. It doesn’t mean that there is anything wrong with any of the programs; as we say so often here, it’s all about fit! (D has spoken with one at length, and that person says she realized pretty quickly that the program or school didn’t fit her, not that there is something wrong with it–just things were wrong for her.) I bet we could all say, “I know a person who transferred to____ from ____,” but that doesn’t really show anything but fit. Even if it raises a red flag to one person, that does not mean it will raise a red flag to another person. Am I personally curious about it, and would I want to know why, especially if my child was compiling a school list or deciding between schools? You bet; I’d try to find out from the source because I’d want to try to ascertain if my D would fit or not, too.
One of the red flags to D personally was if a program had been a cut program in the recent past because, unless faculty has changed, some of the attitudes that were present in the program then may still be present. We researched and heard stories on CC and in person elsewhere about the couple places that fell into this category and that might have interested D. D was not comfortable with the possibility of those attitudes because she was looking for a specific environment. Obviously, based on the number of people auditioning at such programs, others do not care; it’s not a red flag to them. Again, it’s all about fit.
As an aside, for clarity, perhaps we should specify which U of A when discussing it in a thread not specifically about just that school. There is U of Arizona and U of Alabama. One might also (and did) even confuse it with The University of the Arts (gasp, lol–my D goes there–never a cut program–commonly referred to as UArts) or U of Alabama Birmingham (commonly referred to as UAB, but still, someone could get it confused with U of A–also not a cut program).