D having trouble at reach school

Parents Forum
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<p>I've been lurking for a couple of years and have learned so much. Most of you are parents of amazing students. My D is amazing in many ways, but is not an academic superstar. D was admitted to her reach school and is having trouble academically. Her first semester grades were B's and C's, but her second semester grades have come in and she has failed a 6 credit class, which means she received two F's. These two F's, along with her other grades have given her a GPA which falls below the acceptable standard. According to the web site, anyone who falls below the acceptable GPA is either placed on academic probation or dismissed. I know her login and password and was able to access the grades on-line. I doubt that she has looked yet, and if she has, she has not mentioned anything. I'm sure that she will be devastated.
I'm just dreading having the discussion with her.</p>

<p>I never attended college and feel totally out of my element.
Is it possible to be out of your league academically? D was admitted to this top 40 private with SAT's 200 points below the average. She knew that she'd be challenged going in, but decided to give it a try. I'm wondering now if it was the right decision. Would the work be easier at a less selective, lower ranked school? Is it possible to rise to the occasion with hard work and persistance? or do you sometimes just have to admit defeat? </p>

<p>I just don't know what the next step should be. Should she call the school to find out of she is actually on probation or is being dismissed? And if she is on probation, find out what can be done to rectify those two F's? Or should she wait for the school to contact her? Does anyone have any advice on how to handle this situation? Thanks, BB</p>

2

<p>I think the first thing you need to do is let your daughter know that you used her log in information to see her grades and talk to her about it. Maybe she does already know about this and has been working with her school.</p>

<p>I also think that it is too early to be asking these questions until you do have a discussion with her. She is really the only one who can say if she is over her head or not, and she should be able to tell you if she thinks she would be better off at a different school or if she wants to try to stick things out.</p>

3

<p>In addition to what Demingy said, if she's put on probation and allowed to stay, I'd make these suggestions:</p>

<p>1) try to pinpoint where the problem is. Is it time managment, study skills problems, text anxiety? Or is it content based; problems with writing (extremely common), math, difficult concepts? </p>

<p>2) Identify resources on campus that can help her. All campuses have some sort of Learning Support Center, with free tutoring, and usually workshops in various problem areas like time management, etc. Many schools have various support programs which tailor help to a student's needs. For instance, I work in a federal program called Student Support Services, which supports students who are either low income or first-generation college student (like your D). these programs offer individualized counseling, academic support, and a sense of belonging which can help students whose families do not have a college background. If her problems seem to be anxiety-based, she could also consider seeing the counseling center at the college.</p>

<p>3) After identifying the problem areas and sources of support, she needs to make a specific plan to use these resources, and to monitor her progress closely. She may or may not want you involved in that; it would be best to have an impartial "coach" of some sort, but if that's not available, and she wants you involved, that's a route she could go. (This is my major role with the students in my program--I often say it's like having 75 extra kids!)</p>

<p>Good luck to you and your D. I don't think that aiming high is a bad thing. If they took her, they believe she can succeed there.</p>

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<p>bbcakes --
Okay, on this board of super-achievers, I must humbly admit that I, too, was placed on academic probation in college. I got two D's. This was following the year I was a presidential scholar for getting straight A's! I agree with the posters above that there are several things your D should do.</p>

<ol>
<li> Examine why. Mine was a vicious cycle of being unhappy, under stress, studying / testing poorly.</li>
<li> Seek help. I had a wonderful teacher who was able to realize that my ability and performance weren't matching, and sent me to a "learning resource center" on campus. Somewhere there requisitioned copies of my tests, and helped me find my weaknesses. I was taught both study skills and test-taking skills. More importantly, I had someone rooting for me.</li>
<li> Realize that it is possible to overcome this situation! D is not the first person to be in this situation; the college probably has resources if you / she look for them. And if she is able to pick herself up, dust herself off, and succeed -- the ways she will grow and the confidence she'll gain are the very things we send our kids to college for in the first place!</li>
</ol>

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<p>I am sorry to hear about the situation. It dependis on your feelings on how involved you should be in this process. For a freshman, I would go immediately to the school and talk to your daughter and get some input as to what her problems are. Usually kids do not have this problem because they cannot do the work. And kids on the ball would have looked up their grades if they had an inkling they were in trouble, and anyone with those grades should have had more than an inkling. I smell some other things in the air with your D than just plain unable to do the work.</p>

<p>Yes, she needs to see her advisor, and plan the next step. It is essential because early intervention can make the difference in the university's decision as to what to do--put her on probation or dismiss her. Depending on the school and the major, it is possible that your D is unprepared for the rigor, but I really doubt it. Unless she is taking some really difficult courses, say in engineering or the sciences without the proper preparation, I can honestly say, every single case of this scenario which I have see many times, involves other factors. Does she have a notebook for every course, and is it filled with daily notes? IF not, that is a flag for something other than ability. ANYONE can do that. If she was attending every single class, doing the assignments, seeking help, keeping a notebook,then she had to know she wasn't getting it earlier in the process. The grades would not have been a surprise. Usually, too many good times, skipping classes, substance abuse, depression, lack of study skills being used weighs in heavily. I think a heart to heart talk is in order but some Inquisition techniques may be needed to get to the real core of the matter.</p>

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<p>Personally, I don't think you should be looking at your daughter's grades without her permission. I think that crosses the line of privacy. She is in college now, this isn't high school. I'm sure she will come to you when she is ready to talk about it.</p>

7

<p>The school should communicate to her in some way if she's been put on probation. If she is then most schools will have resources available such as tutoring, etc. that she can take advantage of. Some schools might even set up her with a personal academic counselor.
But the bottom line is, there has to be a reason for her grades. I agree with a few of the other posts- maybe she's having a hard time adjusting and is possibly depressed. She might not want to admit it, but this is usually a fairly common explanation for the problems students have their first year. Regardless though, she didn't just fail that class out of the blue. From my experience, it takes a lot to fail a class. Most of the time you could mess up really badly and talk to the professor and/or TA's, make a good effort, and at the very least they'll pass you...even at a top 40 private university. Even then, there's the option of withdrawing or dropping a course if you realize that you're in over your head. Even if your daughter hasn't seen her grades yet, I doubt that it'll come as a surprise...now THAT's what you need to talk to her about.</p>

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<p>My parents did not intervene when I was having problems, and in retrospect it was a mistake. I think that 'fessing up about your login is probably the ethical thing to do. </p>

<p>daves123
The whole privacy issue is complicated by the factor that the parents may well be spending a lot of money. There may be enough to fund four years of college, but not five or six.</p>

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<p>This is a delicate area; first, I would guess and hope that since you know your D's password and login that she gave them to you earlier this year and may not mind that much that you used the knowledge to check her records. So that may be one hurdle that is not as high as it might be in other circumstances. </p>

<p>Regarding the academics, this is something that she and the school will need to work through along the lines mentioned in earlier posts. It may be that since your D was admitted with below-average test scores that the school will treat this year's academic issues with some flexibility too, and be relatively lenient (that is, probation rather than withdawal). But that will not address the difficulties reflected in the year's grades unless the cause of the drastically declining performance are addressed. To me it sounds as though your daughter worked hard with modest but acceptable results first semester and could have gone either way second semester--upt to a solid 3.0 or higher or down, and going down as drastically as she did may have been the result of an overly challenging course or, more likely, a combination of factors. Sometimes students, even very able students, simply let work slide--the novelty of freedom to plan their own out-of-class schedules, the lack of direct adult supervision, and so on, make college very different. Or she may have failed the first test and gotten so discouraged that she stopped doing the work and perhaps didn't feel comfortable going to her professor for help. A student who is having trouble in a course might get a C or a D, but to fail I think you often have to do more than do poorly--literally not doingo not do the work or not showing up in class are likley to come into play. So in addition to finding out how the school is going to handle the GPA issue, you and your D may need to pinpoint the reason or reasons for the failure and address that--suibject mastery, study skills, and time management may all have played a role. I don't think the fact that it was a reach school would necessarily be key--unless there is a rigid curve and professors are required to fail the person with the lowest average--and this seems unlikely. Any top 100 college or university is going to have some very able students and some very demanding professors--and some students who are below the institutional average and some professors who are not geat teachers or empathetic to struggling students. </p>

<p>Certainly colleges vary in the rigor of their grading and in the skill level of the students, but that usually manifests itself in A students getting Bs and B students getting Cs; outright failure is something beyond this. My experience with my children is limited to selective LACs, and neither of their collegs has a rigid curve--grades are given based on performance, so no one needs to fail (and no one needs to get an A either). I know there are schools where professors are required to curve mroe strictly, and there is a chance this happend to your daughter but somehow I don't think so--a D might be mandated but not an F.</p>

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<p>My daughter received an F in a required class because she failed the final. She is attending a very tough school, and while she thought she was doing well, the final blew her out of the water.
If I had had access to her previous grades ( which she would have had to ask for) I would have suggested that she take time off and regroup, rather than wait to fail the class- have to take a year off to retake the class and then go back.
She also is attending a reach school- her high school GPA was 3.3, the average for recently admitted students is 3.9
At my daughters school, the class needed to be retaken at the school before the grade would be changed. We couldn't afford to do that, it was very complicated but it would have meant the end of finaid to a very expensive school.
The best but difficult choice was to take a year off and retake the entire series of classes while living at home. She didn't flunk the whole year, but we felt it made the most sense to be sure she had the foundation. ( she had an F in spring term of Ochem, other classes were Ok not A's but the average GPA at her school is 2.9)
It may be possible to make up classes in the summer- I would let her know right away that you know what her grades are, ( my daughter didn't find out until she was home for the summer) and see what options she has.</p>

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<p>I'd probably take a drive with my daughter and talk to someone in person. Whether or not she decides to go back in the fall, it should be her decision. I would strive to keep that option open and also the option of taking a year off and returning. Unless the school has specific requirements about certain courses, she should be able to take them in the summer. I believe in most cases the second grade replaces the first one. Some students who are unhappy with the grades they get at their away college take the course over at a college near home. </p>

<p>And add me to the group. I got a 1.0 my first semester away at college. There are many reasons why it happens and you should discuss the reasons with your daughter. Try to stress that she is in control of what happens next. As I've told my son, once you get out of high school there is no one right path and life becomes more about options than rules.</p>

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<p>At many schools if a student is placed on probation the parent is notified. At my D's school the academic actions are as follows; risk, warning, probation, suspension, separation. The parents automatically gets a letter if any of these actions occur.</p>

<p>I am of the mind set that there is 3 sides to every story; yours, mine and the truth. You should sit down with your daughter so that she can do an assesment of the semester. </p>

<p>You will have to set the tone for open and honest communication and be willing to listen to the good, the bad and the ugly in a non judmental way. Let her tell her story but she also remind her ( if she trails off and said that s/he wasn't a good teacher and "x" students failed)that she needs to take ownership responsibility and accountability for her role in this. </p>

<p>If she got 2 F's this did not happen overnight. If she failed her first exam or paper, did she ask for help? Ask her about her study habits. Has she missed any classes/ If es, did she get notes or speak to her professor? Does she know if tutoring/study groups are available to her? Has she used them? Has she gone to visit her professor to talk about her performance in class? </p>

<p>If your daughter is a freshman and has always done well in school asking for help may be hard for her to do because she has never had to do this before. This can play on her psychologically because she may feel that something is wrong with her vs. the fact that academics in college are different from h.s.</p>

<p>My guess would be that she is probably going to be placed on academic probation. She needs to know what this entails. At some schools it may mean mandatory meetings with your dean every 2 weeks to discuss your progress and having your courses approved before registering. Even if thsi is the case the 2 of you should understand that this is not a punitive measure but a preventive one.</p>

<p>all the best</p>

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<p>bbcakes,
I agree with those who say that it may be too early to tell if the entire package (the school) is an unreachable reach, or if there's a specific (temporary) problem that can be overcome with the school's intervention.</p>

<p>If I were in your shoes, I would have a thorough heart-to-heart with D before going to the school or calling the school, suggesting what the options could be & asking her what level of parental involvement she would be comfortable with -- including offering her what kinds of parental involvement would be available. If the money/support issue is a concern (as one poster brought up), I think you need to make those parameters clear, also: ("You can handle this without my intervention, but understand that our financial support for a diff. 4-yr alternative may be limited if you are actually dismissed due to grades," etc.) I think all the options regarding parental fin. support & parental intervention need to be put on the table clearly.</p>

<p>I have a very cozy, trusting relationship with my D, but I think it would jeopardize that trust if I singlehandedly marched onto her college campus to "intervene" without her prior full approval. (So I politely disagree with jamimom about "going immediately to school.") Nevertheless, I would be suggesting to my D that I, the parent, make some inquiring anonymous phone calls to appropriate authorities merely asking what policies, options are available for students in academic trouble. As a concerned parent, I think you should & must know that. Also, every college has this stuff in writing, in prospectuses, catalogs, websites, whatever. If you don't have a copy of the regs, make it your priority to acquire these immediately.</p>

<p>To re-affirm emeraldkitty's experience: It's the college-level sciences in particular that can be the killer. I've known of many a friend & acquaintance who has flunked out of environmental science courses in college, as well as other hard sciences. Chemistry & Physics on the college level can be killers. Some of these students have indeed changed colleges or majors, or "softened" the science program or emphasis. So I would think that it would be important to determine if her current trouble will be a trend for her <em>major</em>. (The 6-unit course sounds like something in a Major requirement.)</p>

<p>My heart goes out to you. I've told my own D that it matters less to me that she run into any kind of trouble in college -- personal or academic -- than that she not tell me if there's any way I can be of support to her early on, before it's too late to recover. But I know she only half "believes" that, because of her age. This period of transitioning to independence is a struggle for them; I know that. They naturally want to be able to handle everything by themselves; sometimes the parent knows how to get the information & remedy the situation quicker, but most students wish that weren't true!</p>

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<p>Just a suggestion for the future - the only way I made it through my tougher courses was to read the material ahead of time. For me, the lectures and labs then made much more sense. As a comp sci prof said, 'reading ahead is not cheating.'</p>

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<p>It would help if we knew what the school is and what her stats were when she applied.</p>

<p>It's not unusual for students to get on academic probation particularly during freshman year. This can occur whether or not they are at a reach school. College is a major transition for students, requiring them to discipline themselves to go to class (even if attendance is not taken) and to do term papers on time even if the professor doesn't remind them about deadlines.</p>

<p>It's also hard for many students to learn to be responsible for their own curfews and for juggling various extracurricular distractions. </p>

<p>I was on academic probation my freshman year at Harvard, and ended up graduation with honors. My problems had been due to not organizing my time right, and getting distracted by doing things like having late night gabfests that left me too tired to make it to morning classes. </p>

<p>I also had tried to quickly read college texts at the same speed that I had read novels. Doesn't work! One has to take more time and one also has to think about what one reads. I learned that during a conversation with the dean (who had called me in due to my low grades).</p>

<p>When I had seen my grades, I had thought that I had made a mistake by going to Harvard -- perhaps I really should have been at a less competitive college. However, the problem was my study habits, not inadequate intelligence. </p>

<p>Anyway, when taught college, I saw students who had similar difficulties to what I had when I was in college. They fell behind in their work, didn't use professor's office hours to ask questions, partied too much, didn't write down assignments, etc. When, however, they learned to do these things, they did fine.</p>

<p>I hope that this gives you some reassurance about your daughter, and also gives you some things to follow up on when you talk to her.</p>

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<p>Depending on your daughter's high school preparation, sometimes adjusting to college level work can be a challenge. This can be particularly true in math & science if the class is populated by students with lots of AP work while your daughter took average HS classes in those areas. (I did Classics in HS and switched to engineering in college - that first year was akin to trying to merge onto a fast-moving expressway from the slow lane...)</p>

<p>Then again, it could be something else entirely. Many kids go to college and find it difficult to structure their time, or hang out with kids who don't need to study much to maintain their GPA.</p>

<p>These days, most colleges have resources for kids who are having trouble. When I was in college, "weeding out" the students who couldn't cut it was an accepted practice; today, with the emphasis on measures like freshman retention rate and graduation rate, colleges really try to help students in difficulty. Once you work out the "peeking" issue, I'd find out what resources are available and develop a plan for using them.</p>

<p>Summer coursework may be a good option to gain some ground. Good luck!</p>

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<p>How concerned to be may depend on the classes flunked. If she is struggling with Ochem, physics, calculus, etc., that could be less horrid than flunking freshman English. The other thing to determine is the school's curve- My D attends a UC with very tough 400-500 person "weeder" classes and there are killer curves. An F in this would be approached with different help ideas than Fs in classes without a mandated curve. My D sees tons of people getting C- or below and having to repeat the course and I guess that is how they weed you out to a different major, theoretically not out of school.</p>

<p>Also, bear in mind she is probably humiliated (in her own mind) by the lack of success, try to offer all suggestions from the perspective that you are on her team to assist her in finding the right method for success, no judgement unless/until you find out she is skipping class and irresponsibly partying.</p>

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<p>Thank you all for your kindess and thoughtful advice. I now feel in a better position to speak with my D. It's comforting to know that others have been in this situation and have had a positive outcome. My D did mention that she was having some difficulty this semester, but I had no idea that it was this bad. Perhaps she just didn't want to admit that she needed help. </p>

<p>I do believe that poor time management and study skill are contributing to this problem. She attended a mediocre public school and got A's and B's will very little effort. First semester of college was quite a shock - she found that she couldn't look over her notes for 30 minutes and pass a test. I wasn't sure what to expect for first semester grades and just told her to try her best. When she ended up with a 2.5, I must say I was relieved. She wasn't happy with those grades and I fully expected her to improve this semester. I don't know what happend. She's has a very active social life, so this may also be part of the problem. The class that she flunked was her only 9AM class and that may be part of it as well. I plan to have a heart to heart with her tonight. </p>

<p>As for the peeking... my D did supply me with her login and password, but probably didn't realize that I could view her final grades. I feel somewhat guilty about this, but was worried about her grades and considering that I am paying full tuition at over 40K, I wanted to be sure that she was on track to graduate in 4 years. Hopefully she won't be too horrified at what I did and will understand the reasons behind it. We have a wonderful and close relationship and I am sure that we can get through this.</p>

<p>Thank you all for the kind words and thoughful advice. You truly are a kind and caring group of people. Thanks agan, BB</p>

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<p>Everyone has given you great advice, but I'll add a few things that I might talk to my daughter about if she were in the same situation. Beyond the academics, is she happy at this school? Has she developed a strong support system of friends that she feels comfortable with? Does she feel comfortable in general with the social atmosphere? How was her roommate situation this year? While academic problems can often be fixed, if the deeper problem is she is not happy or entirely comfortable at this school for whatever reason, then it may just have been a bad fit that translated into a lack of attention to school work, rather than an inability to handle the school work. So, while it's important to look at the academic side of things, I'd also want to know how my daughter feels about the rest of her experiences at this school before I push her to return and "do better." </p>

<p>Good luck to you and your daughter - you sound like a Mom who listens, and that may just be what she needs.</p>

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<p>BB, I feel bad for you. It is unfortunate that this situation has prompted your first post after lurking... for a couple of years!?! I think the next step should be to talk to your D and encourage her to contact the school, rather than wait. I know many kids (my S, for example) in this situation would do nothing except wait for what they assume is the inevitable. I would want to know asap if my kid is going to be on probation or dismissed. If the school has any flexibility in choosing between those 2 options (sometimes it is a rigidly applied GPA cutoff with no flexibility) the sooner your D contacts her advisor to discuss her situation, the better. good luck.</p>