D21 has a 4.0. UW GPA and has maintained this In all subjects senior year (first semester ends in about a week). She has a solid A average in Calc AB because of consistent high grades in homework/class work but often scores lower on individual tests. She is not naturally mathy (690 math SAT after much prep as compared to her 780 ERW first try). She will be a humanities or social science student and unlikely to take any math other than statistics in college. Lately she has become very distressed with Calc (all-virtual school with the online classes In any given subject taking place only every other day doesn’t help). I’ve advised her just to stay the course, to do as well as she can, and not worry unduly about a potential grade drop… I’ve told her that she wouldnt be rescinded from her ED school because of one B (or even a C) in her whole high school career, that, in fact, asking permission form an AO to drop from AP to honors could be more problematic, than a potential grade drop in one hard class but she’s not hearing it. :
The problem? She is already terrified at the prospect of taking the final exam (which is apart from the AP exam) that will count for 10% of the final grade. She claims she gets through day-to-day by plugging in whatever formulas the class is doing, but not understanding on a deep level or retaining anything in her long-term memory (and, of course, the material is getting harder). My husband is mathy and tutors her when she is really stuck, but she has convinced herself that no amount of tutoring will help her pass the final.
I’ve advised her that colleges generally prefer a student to take up a challenge even at risk of not excelling at everything, and that it will be OK. The message is not getting through, though and her dread and distaste is skyrocketing. I’m sure it’s also a symptom of a larger problem (social isolation, boredom, winter blues, spending most hours on front of a screeen…the normal touch of low-lying COVID-era depression isn’t helping the math situation). Honestly, I’m OK with her dropping the Calc level if it helps her mental health a bit. The honors level would be the same class/same teacher…main difference is, there would be no final exam for honors. She’s not sure, but the honors workload might be identical (or just slightly easier) than AP assignments.
She wants to email her AO tomorrow to request the change to honors Calc. Advice? Is this a non-issue (after all, she’s just asking permission, not taking action yet to change the schedule). Thanks!
Can you check in with her GC before she does this? I’d recommend that, also talk to the honors teacher and figure out the difference in course load first. Definitely not worth it for just one final (depending on the school, she may not even ever have to take a math class if she gets a 4-5 on the AB AP exam).
In the same way that they’re not going to rescind her acceptance if she gets a C in Calc AB, they’re not going to rescind her acceptance if she asks to drop down to Honors Calc for second semester, especially since she is running an A in Calc AB. I think that you should encourage her to finish up this semester of Calc AB (which it sounds as if she intends to do), and let her go ahead and email the admissions officer to make sure it’s okay with them if she transfers into Honors Calc for second semester. She can frame it as a better fit for her because while she is clearly able to do the work, she is having trouble understanding the why and how behind the computations, and feels that she would actually be able to gain a better understanding of Calculus in the honors level, as opposed to the AP level.
Remember, it’s very tough what the kids have been going through. There is NO WAY that the admissions officer is going to tell her to keep plugging at the Calc AB, not under the pandemic on-line learning conditions. She wants this? Let her have it.
Thanks! I want to give her this break too…Just thought that an AO could look askance at such a change since (on paper) it seems she is doing so well in the class. I suppose it doesn’t matter anyway…the deposit is paid and they won’t rescind her for asking!
BTW, our concern isn’t really whether she gets college credit for the class.
I still think she would take a statistics class in college just for the general knowledge (and she would need it in any case for social sciences).
I don’t think there is risk in asking, but I would prepare your D that the AO might not say it’s ok to make the switch, and they might want her to stick it out in AP calc.
Pre-pandemic, my D19 was accepted to her ED school, and asked to drop AP comp sci for high honors comp science (same level of rigor/gpa weighting). She was ultimately allowed to do so but it was not an easy process, and that was with support of her coach, as she was a recruited athlete. I do think schools are likely to be more lenient/flexible due to the pandemic.
Good luck, I also have a HS senior who is suffering from too much screen time, isolation, etc.
“I’ve advised her that colleges generally prefer a student to take up a challenge even at risk of not excelling at everything, and that it will be OK” I do agree, in general, But depending on the situation.
She’s headed for humanities, not stem. She already took up one big “challenge”, by taking the class, despite not being math-y. She made her impressions, with the A grade. She sealed some life lessons about pushing through and has the ED admit. This isn’t a case where a kid was headed for a C or worse or was slacking and plain old wants to quit. It’s not betraying any trust from the college, to make some change. And not a frivolous change, just to honors.
(Some mid-stream changes can be an issue. Eg, the junior who wants some odd elective to replace a more necessary class. But she’s beyond that point.)
So, to me, it’s less a strategy question than about her emotions. (And not just covid-related. A lot of kids get jumbled after an admit, the goal they worked toward for so long.) Does she need to push on, to teach her something more about her abilities? I think not.
Or does she need to be allowed and allow herself to simply make the decision that works better for her? This is where I lean. Sometimes, there’s a great lesson in accepting when it really is OK to lean back- and this is a small leanback. Not frivolous. She’s not dropping calc. It can be it’s own sort of empowering. KIds spend so much hs time following the rules.
You aren’t asking for permission, per se. It’s more about getting feedback, as she makes her decision. It will help if she phrases this in the positive. And how the two courses are essentially the same. Not anything about the efforts being overwhelming or being worn out.
We just went through this with my son. Same issues: remote school, isolation, classes every other day in a rotation. He was struggling in AP calc (humanities kid). I got him a tutor (college kid) and they met on zoom twice a week for 45 minutes. It helped him tremendously to be able to go slowly through the concepts with someone else. And I think the moral support helped. If your D decides to tough it out, that might be something to try. He ended up deciding to stay in AP and we are still waiting on most college admissions. If he starts to struggle again, I’m calling the tutor!
To me, it makes a big difference that this student already has an admit. And it’s ED, which presumes a college that particularly means something to her, not just among several preferred choices. And all the rest of what I wrote, about already taking on the “challenge” and mastering it with an A for 1st semester.
I had a kid go through this, too. AP calc and a valued EC.
IME different schools can handle these situations differently (ED admits wanting to drop a class second semester).
In the case of my D it was made clear to her that she was in fact asking for permission, permission that may or may not come.
Although she was an athletic recruit, she had high rigor, test scores and GPA at or above 75%ile, and did a long term research project at a T20…so not lite on the academics.
I’m not exaggerating that the approval process took 3 weeks, with lots of back and forth to drop an AP class for one at the same level (tho not AP).
I appreciate all the feedback! Yes, @lookingforward, this school was her top choice by far after visiting in September (William & Mary) and she’s very excited about it. And yes, she has always been a rule-follower so I think she deserves the opportunity to request some leeway (whether it’s actually granted or not). Her regional AO has always been friendly and encouraging so I hope he won’t be offended by the request.
I think that simply removing the dread of the final exam in the spring (even if honors level is otherwise exactly the same) would be enough to lower her anxiety level.
Agree that there is no risk in asking but be prepared that they may deny her request. My son was an early admit to Stanford and asked his AO whether he could drop down to regular econ from AP econ for spring semester because AP econ was only avail online and his school is going back in person (He would have still had 4 AP classes), and got a polite but firm “No”.
I think others are missing the second part of that sentence. Calc is almost necessary for any advanced work in a social science field, so if Psych or Soc is a possibility, unlike say, English, stick it out. Complete Calc in HS and hopefully not have to take it in college.
D changed a couple classes this spring after being admitted ED. She dropped 2 electives that were watered down last minute because of Covid protocols and added a PE class and study hall in their place.
After the change she still had 6 core classes (doubled up science with physics and AP Chem). She sent an email to her Amherst AO explaining the change and outlining her remaining schedule. It was probably overkill in her case. He said he appreciated her making it so easy to review and see what she was doing, but primarily they only care about the 5 core classes so if she wanted to change her electives that’s fine.
Definitely she did ask permission though. We were going through the change process at the high school at the same time, which was actually a lot bigger hassle than it should’ve been. I guess if Amherst said no we would’ve had to go back to the principal she begged to let her make the change and then beg him to put her back in the other classes. GC and 2 principals involved, ultimately the last principal going back and forth on email with me to make the change.
They could rescind admittance so do not do this on a whim.
Another idea:
She is taking Calc AB which is like taking Calc 1 over a year, not a semester. She will have to take some kind of math in college…why not try to do well on AP test to place out? Calc 1 (if that is what she takes) would be even more fast-paced.
Get her more help…a tutor, study group, extra problem book to do, watch Khan academy videos, etc.
Any proposed schedule change should be asked to be approved by the college before being done. Obviously, there is the possibility that the college can say “no”.
“Get her more help…”
To take her from an A to an A+?
Of course, maybe what’s meant is to prep for the finals. Maybe that’s something to consider. OP noted her D tried prepping. But other than Dad, I don’t know if this included outside help.
I, personally, imo, don’t see her getting rescinded for asking. Nor do I see adcoms dropping other priorities, meeting to discuss rescinding this kid for deciding to shift down a notch. What? To go looking for, vet, and pick up a wait list applicant, make the offer and wait? Imagine the discussions.
But I don’t know.
I also might think the delays some experienced, when waiting for response, could reflect how busy they are. Not necessarily their dislike of the idea.
But again, obviously, I don’t know what these other colleges are or how it goes at WM.
Thanks, everyone for your advice and interest. D hasn’t done anything yet. To be sure, she wouldn’t initiate a change impulsely, if at all. She would ask the AO about the school policy of making such a switch before trying to put anything in motion. She wouldn’t want to do anything to jeopardize her acceptance to this school (in fact, it is her fear of jeopardizing it by doing poorly on the final that has made her anxious in the first place). I’ve actually done the math to show her (hypothetically) what her average would be if her second semester average (other than the final) drops to a mid-B (unlikely, given her mid-A up to now) if she flunks the final. She would still likely pull a low B, or with a zero on the final, a C (not going to happen…just plugged in the zero to show her an extreme example). She still dreads the prospect of taking that county final (which would likely be easier than the AP test). So her feelings about it are not exactly rational but they are what they are. I haven’t talked about it With her yet today…maybe she has cleared her head a bit and changed her mind.
The idea of tutoring is a good one. I still think the best thing would be for her dad to step up and do a bit more with her systematically (and he’s usually willing). I can see how a different perspective from a new tutor could be useful but I think she’s more comfortable with him, in person, than she would be with anyone unfamiliar to her online. She’s truly sick of life on zoom. My husband’s only lack is his unfamiliarity with the exact methods of the teacher. He, himself, is a chem prof ( PH.D with a chem E BS) so he has the math chops and teaching experience to help her wade through Calc AB. I didn’t realize Khan also has calc instruction (for when dad’s not available or she needs another explanation). She has a great resource at home…She just has to decide whether she has the mental/emotional stamina (given all the other difficulties of the moment) to push through.
To clarify, though, if she makes a change, it would be a small change. She would be in the same virtual classroom, at the same time, with the same teacher, and possibly have the same assignments and unit tests. The main difference would be not having to face a final exam in late spring.
If it’s going to be that similar, it might just make sense to go through with AB, but you should find out the differences, along with checking with adcoms at W&M, as others have suggested. Adcoms and others as well may not know what honors Calc is at your high school, as it’s not standards-based course like AP. If it’s Calc meant for non-stem majors, that might be ok, if it’s considered a watered-down version of Calc, probably not so good.
Thanks, @theloniusmonk, good point. I’ve asked her previously to talk to her teacher before making any move. She really needs to clarify that. I suspect she also dreads doing that because he was one of her college recommenders!
I do doubt that there is much difference in the levels. It is an AB class with just a couple of kids thrown in who didn’t want AP level (the school doesn’t have capacity for a separate class). I doubt the teacher has time to do a watered extra version for those kids…they are all in the same lecture (he is also the school pre-Calc and physics teacher so he has his hands full). At most, some assignments or tests might be a little shorter or easier. I really think, though it is just that honors kids don’t take the AP test or the county final.
Rationally, I think she’d be fine (grade-wise) staying the course but this is more of a mental health thing. (She’s a worrier, but never had capital-A Anxiety in her past, BTW.)
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