D wants to enlist in the military - help!

Parents Forum
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<p>I dont want to highjack the thread and it is about the OPs situation. For full disclosure my son is at West Point, and we have had the same fears and concerns you have expressed. We receive an email on every West Point casulaty killed in action. There have been probably about 40, most about a year or two ago. MY son loves it, we can imagine him anywhere else, and to have a child find there passion and service is magical, overcoming many concerns, at least making them bearable</p>

<p>Regardless of ones opinion about the war and its tactics, everyone who serves is defending the constitution by supporting the decisions of the civilian government. To do otherwise would be to have the situation of many countries in South America and Africa where the military can decide the government, to all who serve, whenever they serve, the countries best.</p>

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Perhaps you can also get her military recruiter on board to allow her to see her options. If her recruiter sees that you are not actively undermining the idea of a military career, he may become your ally in getting your d to school.

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<p>You probably are aware of this, Califa, since your D has been spending a lot of time talking to recruiters, but in case you are not, I wanted to point out that recruiters will not be your allies in getting your D to go to college. The job of recruiters is to recruit enlistees, not ROTC cadets. They have quotas to make of enlistees and recruiting an ROTC cadet does not help them make their quota.</p>

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<p>She does understand the enormous pay and responsibility differences between a private and a second lieutenant, right?</p>

<p>I have a cousin in the Marines right now, over in Iraq. He enlisted right out of high school and loves his job, but his on his third tour over there, and that wears on him and his family.</p>

<p>I also have two uncles who served in the Navy and Army. Both went through ROTC and NROTC, and one ended up with the Naval Intelligence for many, many years, doing undercover work at the Pentagon. The other was an officer in the Army, and served in Vietnam. Both had highly successful professional careers, Army uncle became highly successful lawyer, and NCIS made career out of the Pentagon, as I mentioned before.</p>

<p>I'm sure my connections aren't unique by any means, but please, please help your D realize that the benefits of doing ROTC and earning a degree are much better in the long-run. Her goal is a patriotic one indeed, but even the toughest Marines wouldn't want her officer potential to be missed given her obvious intelligence.</p>

<p>I suggest you take her to the nearest Marine recruiting station and tell them your story. They're the ones who can best advise her on the ROTC/college path, and she'll probably listen more to them, than to you.</p>

<p>Timely, from someone who has Marine recruiters at my high school literally every week, I can tell you that they know an OTC candidate when they see one. I really don't think they're going to discourage a very obviously passionate potential officer from earning a college degree--it only helps in the long run.</p>

<p>Best of luck!</p>

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<p>my-3-sons, that was a great link about the American Senior Military Colleges. I knew there were other Corps of Cadets out there but didn't know where to find a list. In fact, I thought Virginia Tech had one and even went to Va Tech's website to check and couldn't find anything there! (Probably Va Tech's Corps needs to step up their PR a bit!)</p>

<p>One thing about the family aspect, whether in a Corps of Cadets or in a regular military unit.....women are discriminated against. I doubt your D would believe you if you were to tell her this, Califa, but it's true. Many (most) of the guys would prefer to have all-male outfits and they often ostracize the females. That's not to say that females don't succeed; they do. But they often do it without the buddy support network that the guys have.</p>

<p>Keep in mind that these are young (immature) guys. They don't think it's fair that the girls don't have to do as many push ups, run as fast, etc. The guys have to wear embarrassingly short haircuts, but the girls don't. Sometimes the girls bring the problems upon themselves if they are the ones always claiming they can't work out because they are sick or stopping and crying when physical training gets hard.</p>

<p>Fixing the problems with that system are complicated, and people smarter than me are trying to figure out how to make it work. For now, though, in many cases, the military or a Corps of Cadets will be like a family for guys but not for girls.</p>

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<p>

Unfortunately, some discrimination occurs (more often a vague hostility to some situations rather than outright favoritism, IMO). I would disagree that the majority of guys feel this way. </p>

<p>It does work both ways. There are guys who complain about women in the military, but there are also those who are very protective of women in their units. I have seen several times where someone tried to take advantage of a female and a male counter part stepped in, in a very clear way to prevent anything bad from occuring. Every unit is different...luck of the draw, I guess.</p>

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I'm having a hard time sorting how much of this is really her wanting to join the military to "serve her country", and how much of it is to assert her own identity, a form of adolescent rebellion, and how much of it is looking for the structure/father figure she is lacking at home.

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<p>Most did who enlist don't enlist to "serve their country" - there are lots of reasons - you may have hit on a couple here. I think to assert her idenity and structure is fine but I am more concerned about the "father figure" issue.</p>

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but I'm very disturbed when she says that if she can't get in the military, she will kill herself.

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teenage melodrama or not - this is troublesome. some things are just not in her control.</p>

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Another reason I want her to keep her options open is that no one should "put all of your eggs in one basket."

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Absolutely! My daughter had a plan A, and plan B and a plan C. Perhaps you could sit down with her - talk about her medical situation. If the military won't waive it then what would she do?
If she gets injured in Basic what would she do?</p>

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I should have put in my original post that she says she doesn't want to go to college because she hates HS and doesn't want to "waste" four years of her life

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Don't know if this makes you feel better but this is pretty common. A LOT of kids hate high school. Have you talked with the GC about this? </p>

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I can prevent her from taking the ASVAB until she turns 18, but can't stop her from talking to recruiters.

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You can sign a paper telling recruiters not to talk to her or call her. check with the school on this. You probably can't stop her from stopping by the recruiting office in the mall, however.</p>

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This is a kid who hated spending a weekend on a Girl Scout camping trip with the bugs

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time for a reality check on the rigors of basic training. Basic is very physical - if she is not an athlete it will most likely be very difficult for her. By the way - during basic you are free to leave (until graduation) and they are free to dismiss you.
There is a pretty good Marine video out on basic - it is pretty tough and there is a lot of mud! Perhaps there is a video in guidance or you can get one from a recruiter.</p>

<p>I have no idea if your daughter "has what it takes" - so to speak. But - consider exploring this "possibility" with her. Make a deal that you will explore the Marines with her if she will consider exploring college with you.
I would take the war out of it - it probably won't change her mind and you need to build her trust so she can value what you say.
You have some legitimate concerns that don't involve the war and she needs to hear them. So if you aren't emotional but remain rational then she will be more likely to hear your concerns.</p>

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This is a kid who hated spending a weekend on a Girl Scout camping trip with the bugs

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Reality check: basic (and deployed environments) are not always tidy places...
<a href="http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/070718-f-5622m-904.jpg%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/070718-f-5622m-904.jpg&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>This is a kid who hated spending a weekend on a Girl Scout camping trip with the bugs</p>

<p>My D was just telling me about bathrooms that she ran into on a high school trip, that were so full of mosquitos that they had to use a full can of bug spray just to enter :p</p>

<p>Not for the squeamish</p>

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<p>Its your daughters life, and if this is what she wants to do, you should be proud.your daughter has more balls than 95% of American males.</p>

<p>anyway, why are you shocked or hard broken. do you somehow think your family is better than those whom serve our country. Thats your problem.</p>

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<p>Dr., so you think the OP should take her D to an endocrinologist, for the serious testosterone imbalance that you are diagnosing? I'm sure the OP will find this information very useful.</p>

<p></p>

<p>One of the minuses of the military, IMHO, is that it tends to attract the kind of people who would make an opinionated, crude and frankly not very bright comment like the one above.</p>

<p>Now, before everyone jumps at me, I am not saying that EVERY, or even MOST of the military is made up of people like this, but I do believe that people like these are found in the military in greater numbers than in the general population.</p>

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<p>Whew! I have scanned, but not thoroughly read, all of the posts so if I repeat something already said, please forgive me. A couple of things crossed my mind when reading these responses. </p>

<p>You mentioned possible OCD behaviors and a previous eating disorder...we have friends that have dealt with this and it is often an issue of control for the one affected...could it be that the idea of enlisting is at this point and time in her life the one thing your daughter feels she alone could control? She might be idealizing the process, especially if she feels you do not want her to take such an action. It would put her in control of her future and you could not stop her. If so, this might be why she is resistant to the idea of a service academy or ROTC route. </p>

<p>My son will be joining the Long Gray Line at West Point in just one more month. Along the path to this decision, he had lots of advice on how to do the "military training thing". Perhaps the biggest influence toward a service academy is his JROTC NCO who constantly tells the higher-achieving kids that they will be much better off with a college education first. He speaks from experience, and lets them know that while all military service is a noble and honorable thing, it is in their best interest financially and stability-wise to have the degree first. Another friend of ours just entered a collegiate ROTC program. His grandfather had been enlisted Air Force and encouraged the grandson to go the officer route via collegiate ROTC. Grandfather's advice was heeded even though parents and said the same thing and son was bound and determined to enlist when they gave advice. </p>

<p>With this in mind, perhaps you could get your high school guidance office to work with you in setting up some interviews with some older and wiser graduates who have served in the Marines and who would encourage her to look closely at her skills and abilities and to get her degree first. If this eventually comes off as her own idea, she may change her mind and even think more along the lines of the Service academies or ROTC program. And for what it is worth, our son's strength is definitely not in math, either, but the academies are looking for well-rounded individuals with leadership potential. If she is strong academically in other areas, SA and collegiate ROTC programs will work with her in her weak areas. In other words, her "I am weak in math" excuse wouldn't necessarily keep her from admittance into an academy.</p>

<p>I truly believe that for some kids, military service comes from a deep passion from within and it is not easy to explain to others. While I do not know if this is true of your daughter, I do understand your reluctance to encourage her to enlist when you are questioning her motives for doing so.</p>

<p>Take a deep breath, and if she is cool with counseling, that should probably be considered. You will rest more peacably knowing whether or not her statements are teenage melodrama or if deeper issues need to be addressed. And just for the record, I do not see your concern as unpatriotic, rather a mom in tune to her child's best interests. </p>

<p>Keep us posted.</p>

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<p>Thanks again to all who posted. I'm trying to keep the volume of the conflict turned down, but it erupted again just last night. She got invited to JROTC leadership camp, and I said fine, but you have to balance it out with something non-military. </p>

<p>I've given her lots of options - programs like Summer Great Books, the many mini-courses at Brown, CSLC - and she absolutely refuses to go to anything other than "Junior war college" through CSLC, which I won't allow because that would defeat the whole purpose of having her broaden her horizons by doing something not military-related. She's not willing to do volunteer work, and hasn't done anything about looking for a summer job (she just turned 16). I tried to be nice about encouraging her to do something else, but all I got was yelling, crying, and cursing. </p>

<p>What would you do?</p>

<p>I've tried to tell her there are other ways to find the sense of belonging that she is looking for. All last year, I tried to get her interested in some other student organizations, but except for track, she refused to do anything. Her problem is that she <em>has no</em> interests other than the military.</p>

<p>When I tried explaining that I've already gone along with everything she wants (drill teams, JROTC in the first place), and now I'd like her to do this one thing for me by spending <em>one week</em> away from home, on a colleg campus in a non-military setting, she went ballistic, and said that she doesn't want to be around "a bunch of strangers" that they'll "pick on" her (she had some unfortunate experiences with "mean girls" and a boyfriend who dumped her last year). She doesn't get it that, when all she talks about is the Marines, that alienates people.</p>

<p>Part of her would like to say if to her "if you don't do something not military related and explore other options, I'll take away JROTC" but that would only push her further away (did I mention she's very stubborn), and above all I want to preserve the relationship, but I don't want to capitulate completely, either. What about linking some big privilege like driving to doing something this summer other than JROTC camp (one week)?</p>

<p>Unfortunately, in her school there's not a thing I can do to keep her away from recruiters. Her school gives the ASVAB to juniors, and I can prohibit her from taking that (and I might, because that will be sure to get recruiters calling her), but if she wants to talk to one in the hall, I can't stop it. And they don't exactly talk about the fine print.</p>

<p>I am very concerned about the way women (especially enlisted) are treated in the services. (A while back a man we met at the gym, who is ex-army enlisted, says the women were classed as "dykes or whores"). She's not prepared for that, or for how men resent that women have to meet lower physical standards (and IMHO although discrimination and poor treatment of women is never justified, men are justified in resenting that women have lower standards, because their safety is at risk - could D, all 112 pounds of her, pull a 200 pound man to safety?) </p>

<p>I'm trying to make the deal with her to listen to her about the Marines if she'll listen to me about college. Wish me luck - she announces "I'm not going to college" and refuses to listen to me. I think she has been sold on the Marines culture, and am afraid that she'll sign years of her life away, not be able to leave, and be miserable. I'm trying to approach it as "all I'm saying is, try college for one year" (or tak a gap year) and pointing out that, if you find yourself unhappy in college, transferring is an option. I really don't understand why she's in such a hurry to enlist, and I don't think she does, either. I've tried to tell her that if the Marines is really her desire, then she would be only more sure of that after a year in college, and she owes it to herself to explore her options. She doesn't listen. Sigh. </p>

<p>That was a good suggestion to try to arrange her to meet some former enlisted Marines - I'll look into that. She has talked to the father or one of her friends, who is ex-career Navy (the kid got a ROTC scholarship, plus a merit scholarship), who is encouraging her to do the same thing (at least she can't accuse him of being unpatriotic). And I think her strong foreign language skills would compensate in the admissions process for her math weakness (she won an award last year, and she wants to take Arabic at the CC in the fall). </p>

<p>What should I do about getting her to do something this summer? The summer program slots are going fast...</p>

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<p>Califa - I sent you a PM</p>

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<p>Califa,</p>

<p>I believe you will see wonderful things that happen to your daughter during the week of JROTC camp!! Our two sons have both attended a total of three times during a three year span at an Air National Guard Base nearby, and while each year was different, when we went to pick them up, the respect they showed to parents and instructors alike was jaw-dropping! Very sincere and polite "Yes, Ma'am"s and "No, Sir"s just automatically came from their mouths. While our sons have always been above average in the showing-respect department, there was something very different about them when we went to the military parade the last day... and this noticable difference lasted for a good while!! I noticed a new respect toward both of us as parents. It was nothing short of miraculous to me! I would be very surprised if you do not see this same difference in your own daughter's attitude in the weeks following camp. </p>

<p>The JROTC leadership camps are not just about military training, but about self-discipline, physical fitness, leadership development, working cooperatively toward common goals, and citizenship. They will learn to make hospital corners and have room inspections. Roommates need to work together on this, so they become pretty dependent on helping each other in cooperative efforts. Even perfect rooms will have flaws and if there aren't any, instructors will find them anyway. Cadets can find humor in this, but it can also be very frustrating. There will be many hours of PT, but not what the young cadets cannot handle. Our camp had at least one day of a leadership/confidence-course where their flights (this was Air Force JROTC) had to use creative problem-solving techniques working together to finish the course. They also spent many hours a day doing drill and ceremony to prepare for the the pass and review the last day. </p>

<p>The first year oldest son went, the camp was difficult, but he loved it. The second year, he had a "Marine Wanna-Be" Female Flight Commander and the morale of his flight was very low. She was rough, gruff, critical of those under her command, and even the guys did not care for her methods and style of leadership. But our son realized all the rest of his flight felt the same way, so he figured out a way to rally the flight together while still following her leadership and they pulled through the week better for the experience, encouraging each other through the rest of the week despite their initial discouragement. I believe that is when his own leadership style began to emerge. </p>

<p>I really think your daughter will gain much more from the one week than you would expect. When I think back on it, there really wasn't a lot of "military" in the training other than perhaps the drill commands for the parade. There were high expectations from each cadet, however, and this might be the taste of Marine-type training your daughter would say "no, thanks" to after experiencing it herself. </p>

<p>As for the ASVAB, our oldest son took it junior year. He scored very high in English, fairly high in Math, but tanked on the technical knowledge such as engines and mechanics since he has neither interest in those areas or experience. I don't think recruitors ever even tried to contact him as his grades and test scores were high enough that they knew he would be recruited by collegiate programs. I don't think I would worry too much about your daughter taking it. I found out this year that those results don't even show up on the high school transcript. BTW, said son is also very stubborn, and also desires a major in foreign language, at this point Arabic and Russian!! He and your daughter seem to have much in common. </p>

<p>Our son has developed an interesting relationship with our local recruitors of several branches here in the last few months. They have actually come to him to ask him about the background and integrity of some local classmates who expressed interest in enlisting! And as well, they have a great relationship with our JROTC instructors and have even presented awards representing their branch at our annual awards ceremony. So not all recruitors will automatically pounce on your daughter. Yes, they do have a job to do and slots to fill, but most of them also are people of honor and integrity. Perhaps if you take the time to talk calmy with them now and let them know you are not sure of her motives, they will work with you. The last thing they want is bad publicity - they get enough of that in the press already!</p>

<p>Yet another thought is this - one of my son's JROTC peers graduated last year and just finished one year of college. He enlisted in the Marines this summer and is at boot camp as we speak. It has not been easy, but he was well-prepared because he knew full-well what to expect. It would be good for your daughter to read a daily log or diary of such an enlistee: my son gets weekly updates from this boy's fiance via the enlistee's Facebook. Talking one-on-one with someone who is fresh out of boot camp would probably be eye-opening to your daughter as well.</p>

<p>I know these are not necessarily the answers you are seeking, but perhaps they will spawn some other creative ways of handling your daughters desires without the conflicts erupting.</p>

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<p>Califa,</p>

<p>Sometimes, kids just have to learn lessons for themselves. Be confident that the basic virtures you instilled in her will come out in the Marine Corps and both the Corps and your daughter will be better for the experience.</p>

<p>BTW, the number 1 graduate from the Naval Academy this year was a 5'4" 110lb woman who had the choice of anything she wanted and selected the Corps.</p>

<p>Hang in there.</p>

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<p>"Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command"</p>

<p>I would share your horror at the thought of my daughter joining the Marines. After a lifetime of trying to keep your children safe, seeing them walk into dangerous situations is terrifying. Unfortunately, she will be able to make this decision with or without you all too soon.</p>

<p>In the meanwhile, you can try to ensure that she gets a realistic view of what she is getting into. Review the risks, honestly, and try to get her to look at them. People are killed, they do get badly injured. </p>

<p>I gather military recruiting has picked up with a combination of the slowing economy and people speculating that the new president and Congress will move aggressively to get us out of Iraq. If so, then her risk of death or maiming would be much lower than for those who are there now. If she does join the Marines in a year her risk of being shipped into danger will be a lot less than it has been, and even now most people who go to Iraq return perfectly healthy.</p>

<p>If she really does not want to go to college, then doing so at this point would be a waste of time. Safer than being in Iraq, but not a good use of her efforts.</p>

<p>Let's hope the war ends soon, and then it is just being in the Marines, rather than combat.</p>

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<p>Anonragon - thanks for your posts. I'm glad your S chose West Point over enlisting. It does look like he and my D have a lot in common, especially with the interest in languages. Funny, she had wanted to learn Russian at one point, but now it's Arabic. From what you told me about JROTC camp, it might be a good experience for her. This is a kid who never, ever makes her bed, and getting her to to any household chores is like pulling teeth (often I don't even try because listening to her complaints is more exhausting than doing everything myself), so having to make hospital corners and meet impossible standards for her room will do her a world of good. Have to admit that I hope she gets a commander like your S's "Marine Wannabe" - that might give her a more realistic view of the military. </p>

<p>I think a lot of her wanting to enlist is a control issue. Last year, it was obsessing over her weight to the point that she was diagnosed with an eating disorder, and part of the dynamic there is that it's something they can control. So it's partly her looking at this as a way to control her life, partly looking for the father she never had, and partly her romanticized visions about enlisting in the Marines. I don't think it's so much a desire to "serve the country" despite what she says, because if that were her real motive, she would look at other options like the State Department, FBI, CIA, etc. I'm trying to tell her try one year of college. After that, she could still choose to enlist. </p>

<p>How do I get across to her that college is so different from high school? I'm hoping that the CC Arabic class will at least be so different from anything she experienced in HS that she'll become at least a little more open minded.</p>

<p>The recruiters around here, from what I've heard, are very aggressive. If I went with her, she would try to talk me into letting her enlist at 17, and there is no way I would do that. Several times when she's asked me to sign for the DEP, she has literally yelled and cried when I said no, that there is no way I would do that. Of course when she is 18 she can make her own choices, but hopefully she'll gain some maturity between 17 and 18.</p>

<p>I would like her to get a more realistic view of the military, including blogs that are realistic. The only person she knows who enlisted recently is someone who graduated from her HS last year, and he has been giving her the romanticized view of it. If anyone knows a good, realistic blog on boot camp, PM me please!</p>

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<p>My advice, given the "control" issues, is to stop trying to "convince" her of anything. The tighter you hold on, the harder she pulls. Remember those Chinese toys where you put one finger from each hand into the ends? If you pull, the toy tightens. In order to get your fingers out, you have to relax them. </p>

<p>She's 15. Last year it was one obsession, this year it's the military, next year it'll be something else (if you let this one run its course). JROTC camp may be very much a wake up call for her.</p>

<p>Until then, I suggest that you nod, smile and say "Yes dear" to anything that doesn't actually require your affirmative consent.</p>

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<p>Hi Califa!</p>

<p>Thank you so much for the updates on your daughter. Your posts are so heartfelt and so well written that I feel like I've gotten to know you and your D fairly well. </p>

<p>I see a lot of myself in your D, except I had a stern father who kept my disrespect towards my mother in check. I was very stubborn at 16, very "know it all," and I couldn't wait to get out of high school as well. Even though I was active on my hs campus, I couldn't stand the girl cliques and the relatively low number of intellectually stimulating conversations that went on in hs. </p>

<p>I only learned to appreciate my own mom when I went away to college. I suspect your daughter might be the same way.</p>

<p>I would strongly encourage you to send your D to JROTC camp in the summer. I considered this camp for S2 because it involves an incredible amount of physical challenges and leadership training. However, S2 hates structure and has no interest whatsoever in the military, unlike S1.</p>

<p>The main reason I believe you should send your D there is because she will be surrounded by hs students whose goal it is either attend a military academy or attend a university with an ROTC program. Perhaps some of the campers are looking to enlist, but I doubt it's a high percentage. Those camps are not cheap, and I believe, generally speaking, that the hs students who attend are seeking to attend college. </p>

<p>The other campers could be a great influence on your D. Also, you can take away the powerful "forbidden fruit" aspect of what's going on with her. She obviously knows she gets a huge rise out of you when she brings up anything military-related. Instead of fighting her every step of the way, I think you should embrace those aspects of the military that will include a college education.</p>

<p>Best of luck and please continue to keep us posted!</p>

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<p>califa, I'm sorry you're having to go through this but you're not alone. First, there's nothing to be ashamed of in wanting your child to go to college. However, your daughter will ultimately have the final say.</p>

<p>Your story is somewhat similar to mine but with a different result.</p>

<p>I had this grandiose dream of becoming a JAG lawyer early in my high school career. My parents at first thought I was joking but when it came up again early in my Sophomore year, they took things a bit more seriously.</p>

<p>My parents were very blunt in what they wanted and expected from me. I grew up in a household that was very materialistic and carefree. I had everything in my life handed to me on a silver platter. When we did get around to discussing my future before my junior year, my parents made it very clear that if I was to choose the military, I would lose everything they had bestowed upon me- my car, credit cards, allowances, etc. At the time, my "status" in my own little world depended on these materialistic things so naturally I quickly adapted to the college-bound mindset and that was the end of it. </p>

<p>However, in the end, they never stopped me from going, but they wanted to make sure that I understood that going against their wishes had consequences.</p>

<p>I hope you and your daughter can find common ground and work something out :)</p>