Daily Princetonian: Investigation into alleged admissions bias expands

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
1

<p>The Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights (OCR) has broadened its investigation into a federal complaint filed in August 2006 by an applicant to the University who was denied admission. Jian Li claimed in the complaint that he was rejected because he is Asian. </p>

<p>The University announced yesterday that it will provide information to aid the OCR in the investigation, which will examine the admissions procedures used to admit the Class of 2010. This significantly widens the range of the inquiry, which had previously focused solely on the decision-making process behind Li's rejection.</p>

<p>Investigation</a> into alleged admissions bias expands - The Daily Princetonian</p>

2

<p>Free</a> Preview - WSJ.com</p>

3

<p>Why would harvard ever accept him as a transfer?</p>

4

<br>


<br>

5

<p>If this kid were black instead of Asian, would he even be making this complaint? </p>

<p>I'm instantly tempted to say "This kid was probably rejected because he had some big flaw that detracted from those scores -- otherwise why would so many separate schools reject him?", but at the same time, I wonder how much being Asian actually affected his application.</p>

6

<p>This kid is a shining example of someone with massive balls, willing to stand up to a corrupt institution, that of affirmative action. </p>

<p>I read somewhere a Princeton admissions officer said "We reject tons of kid with perfect SATs." That might be true, but I wonder how many black kids with over 1550 they rejected? I'm thinking not even one.</p>

<p>It's just so obvious to me that this kid was rejected simply because he is Asian. If he was black or hispanic, there's no way he would've been rejected. I think the most hilarious aspect of these affirmative action debates is that Asian people aren't considered minorities, even considering that some Asian ethnicities have poverty rates almost identical to blacks and hispanics. But we wouldn't want our colleges to be taken over by Asian academic robots right?</p>

<p>BTW: I'm white and I don't have an asian fetish.</p>

7

<p>I agree with dontno wholeheartedly.
This is clearly race-based discrimination.</p>

8

<p>First I'd like to thank you for clearing up the fetish issue ;). Next I'd like to ask how you could possibly say with any degree of certainty that Mr. Li was rejected because he is Asian. We don't know anything about his recommendations, EC's, essays, etc. All we know is his SAT. By saying that he was rejected because he was Asian, you are implicitly claiming that there could have been no other reason he was rejected. Since all you know about him is his SAT, this is equivalent to saying that anyone with a 2400 should be accepted.</p>

9

<p>^IMO, the point of dontno's post was not to claim that Mr. Li was rejected because he was Asian, but that a similarly qualified URM would have been accepted. This hypothesis lends that Princeton values underrepresented minorities (read: of a certain race, perhaps not Asian) more than overrepresented minorities (read: of a certain race, perhaps Asian).</p>

<p>The facts seem to fit, but there's a lot we all don't know, so I don't "agree with dontno wholeheartedly," but I do see the rationale.</p>

10

<p>"Li was denied admission at Harvard, MIT, Penn and Stanford in addition to his rejection from Princeton. Li has not filed similar complaints against these universities."</p>

<p>Does anyone know why he chose Princeton? I'm just curious because it seems weird that he chose Princeton out of all these institutions.</p>

11

<p>[MODERATOR NOTE: The Terms of Service </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item&lt;/a> </p>

<p>of College Confidential forums prohibit personal insults, so the first paragraph of this post has been replaced with this moderator note.] </p>

<p>The rejected applicant shows courage to take on Princeton, but anyone who does not know all the facts (that includes access to all the pleadings and depositions, etc.) should await the unfolding of the investigation.</p>

<p>It is just the attitude of some posters here that got the Duke Lacrosse players into big trouble: assume the worst, cultivate a culture of fear, and sling lots of mud and wait for some to stick!</p>

12

<p>I just wrote a huge response that just got deleted so I'll summarize briefly. Also this complaint was filed almost a year ago and I'm somewhat knowledgeable on the issues.</p>

<p>His application is clearly competitive on the sole basis he was accepted to both Yale and Cooper Union. These schools have almost identical admissions standards and criterion to Princeton and others. (BTW: He chose to sue Princeton b/c he was waitlisted there and b/c he cites a study by Princeton profs as evidence for racial bias in college admissions.) So I do make an assumption about his essays (tho he did get an 800 in writing), recommendations (tho he was at the very top of his class), etc..., but i think it's warranted.</p>

<p>But thats besides the point. Lian is not suiing because he feels his scores ENTITLED him to an acceptance. Rather, he's suing b/c these elite universities interject race into the process by admitting severely academically underqualified blacks and hispanics. (I know this is a contentious issue and subject to concerns about opportunities and other sh i t, but the scores don't lie.) Lain argues that if he were black or hispanic, he would've been accepted without a doubt. Add to that fact that he's an Asian and the standards are even higher b/c of the tacit quota system for ORM's. I don't need depositions to understand that if an Asian person like Li Jian changed his name to Jamal Williams, he would be accepted without a doubt. That's racism!</p>

13

<p>I'm not going to argue that he likely would have been accepted if he were black. The fact is, in general, black students tend to perform more poorly on standardized tests. It doesn't even have to be because of ability or intelligence...numerous psychological studies about "priming" (look it up) have been done, showing that simply prompting race hurts their performance. Because of this, there are very, very, very few black students in the country that score above 2300 on their SATs. The ones that do tend to be exceptional, and schools that recognize this are doing the right thing, IMO.</p>

<p>But that's talking about top students. Let's talk about the 'average' URM student. Your contention that universities admit 'severely academically underqualified blacks and hispanics" is actually completely, totally wrong. If you take a look at the minority graduation rate at many of the top colleges (that practice AA), you'll see that they graduate at comparable rates, usually above 90%. You'll see minorities winning academic awards at Princeton all the time, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were no difference whatsoever between average GPAs between ethnic groups. </p>

<p>I'm in a bit of a hurry, so I'll write more about this later, but I don't think you're offering up very compelling arguments against AA at the moment. Not only are your statements wrong (the "severely academically underqualified" statement is offensively so), but I think your central point is off. The fact that he likely would not have been rejected if he were black does NOT imply that he was rejected on the basis of race alone.</p>

14

<p>I'm not going to support either Princeton or Mr. Li because I don't know enough about the situation to have a clear picture of the case, but I do have a point to make about this subject.</p>

<p>How many applicants of Asian descent were admitted to the University during the same year Mr. Li applied? How do his stats stack up against his fellow Asians who did get in? If Princeton has a pre-determined number of each minority group that will be admitted (as those who argue that the University has a racist admissions policy might claim) then Mr. Li would've had to compete against other Asian-Americans for one of the pre-designated Asian spots. Clearly however he lost. Thus (because I'm assuming that not all the Asian students who made it in had perfect SAT scores) his overall application might not have been as competitive as many are supposing. This is complete speculation on my part, but there must've been some aspect of his application that barred it from being more competitive than those submitted by the other Asian-Americans. So I'm inclined to think that he must've been missing something other than perfect test scores.</p>

<p>Of course I'm not going to bother going into how much I despise affirmative action myself. Lots of good points have already been made in that argument, and I don't really feel like reiterating them.</p>

15

<p>@ quirkily:</p>

<p>There's so much wrong with what you said. It's pretty clear that your incredibly liberal bias won't allow to accept truths, that while undeniably true, may be hard to accept. </p>

<p>
[quote]
The fact is, in general, black students tend to perform more poorly on standardized tests. It doesn't even have to be because of ability or intelligence...numerous psychological studies about "priming" (look it up) have been done, showing that simply prompting race hurts their performance.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I've heard of this with women taking math exams. I wholeheartedly agree that it might be an issue. But, first, I ask how significant is the score decrease? I highly doubt it constitutes more than 50 (/1600) SAT points. Second, aren't we all privy to some kind of distraction or hardship in taking standardized exams? I took my exam in a high school with loads of loud, brash, and obnoxious white trash, some of whom were in my room. Their mere presence wasn't conducive to a relaxed testing area, despite them being quiet during the exam. Also, my friends, most of whom are average intelligence athletes, scoff at people who study hard for the SATs and do extremely well. Often they mocked me as a nerd for spending so much studying. Surely when taking the exam their peer pressure affected me in some subtle way, as in "priming." Should my low SAT be excused because of the above? Hell no. Yet the same concessions are made for URMs.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You'll see minorities winning academic awards at Princeton all the time.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You, like all liberals, mistake AVERAGES with EVERY.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Your contention that universities admit 'severely academically underqualified blacks and hispanics" is actually completely, totally wrong.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Here's a stat from Stanford:</p>

<p>
[quote]
In reality, the average SAT disparity between Stanford's African-American and white admittees reached 171 points in 1992, according to data compiled by the Consortium on Financing Higher Education.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Now tell me if 171 points lower is large enough to say they're "underqualified". I'm also positive that SAT score and high school GPA are directly correlated so I imagine the stats are similar there too.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I wouldn't be surprised if there were no difference whatsoever between average GPAs between ethnic groups.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Don't you think with all the diversity propaganda, Princeton and other colleges would be advertising this endlessly? In fact, at my ugrad Cornell, the conservative newspaper challenged the administration to release this type of data. Shockingly, they refused.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The fact that he likely would not have been rejected if he were black does NOT imply that he was rejected on the basis of race alone.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But that's exactly the point. I don't understand how you can read that sentence with the capital NOT included and think it valid. The question is: Was he rejected on race alone? I think if he changed his race, he would be accepted. Thus he was rejected on race alone. I think you're implicitly assuming a paradigm where AA quotas for Asians is acceptable and then going from there. If so, then his rejection wouldn't be on race alone. I attack that assumption and thus conclude he was rejected on race alone.</p>

16

<p>Try to keep the personal attacks to a minimum, guys.</p>

<p>The problem is that these colleges are trying to fulfill two objectives. They always claim that they want to promote diversity, but they also want to admit strong applicants. If they were to go purely on academics independent of race, top colleges would likely be overrun by Asian students. This would probably make a lot of people angry, leading to outcries of "This is unfair!" along with various groups crying out that they worked harder than the Asian students because "They come from a harder background and had to overcome more obstacles to achieve what they have." I think that this does have SOME weight to it -- if an applicant has achieved lots without nearly as many resources, then that applicant is truly exceptional. However, race alone isn't sufficient in defining this, in my opinion.</p>

<p>And so you wind up with situations like these where an academically strong applicant is nailed because he may be held up to a higher standard as a result of racial averages and statistical expectations, whereas lesser-performing students are admitted in compensation to attempt to fulfill both diversity and academic strength in student body.</p>

<p>And what I've just described is what I think Li's filing a complaint against, and I think it has some merit. If I worked my ass off and was rejected in favor of admitting someone with lesser stats purely because of race, I'd find this extremely unfair. Just because I am of a certain race doesn't necessarily mean I fit into whatever mold has been defined for me in terms of what I should and should not have access to in terms of resources. </p>

<p>On the other hand, we know nothing about Li's application other than his scores. I don't think anything useful is going to come out of this complaint, because Princeton can always rely on "subjective" factors and claim his essays were lacking/his EC's were generic/his recs were nothing special/etc, and therefore take pressure of his claim that he was rejected because of race.</p>

<p>This is just my opinion, but if my application is accepted when I am of Race A, and if that same application is rejected if I am of Race B, then that's racial discrimination.</p>

17

<p>I hate threads like these. All they seem to do is bring out the worst in people.</p>

18

<p>Ha, good find Foil. dontno, I'll ignore most of your ad hominem arguments, and try to address your points directly. I'll offer up a short argument from the achievement/ability perspective, instead of the moral obligation perspective, since you obviously won't agree with my "incredibly liberal bias."</p>

<p>There's a fundamental difference between the situation you describe and the situation that minority students are in, which is that the priming effect is something inherent, something that will exist regardless of the surrounding situation. Whether there are disruptive influences or not, this effect is going to happen, and they'll be negatively affected by it. Your situation isn't the same--it's certainly not something that holds true universally for white students.
While I can't comment on what you say after that (about highly doubting the score difference), the fact remains that URMs consistently perform more poorly on standardized tests. There really are only a few explanations...either you're going to go ahead and say they're less intelligent, or that they're systematically disadvantaged, through implicit racism, economic inequalities, and relative lack of educational opportunities. </p>

<p>So fine, the average high school GPA and SAT score are almost certainly lower for minority students. Honestly, I don't know how big a difference it is, and neither do you. But how much does this matter? I assume your point is that schools should consider achievement objectively, without taking other (unchangeable) factors or the overall situation into consideration. But then, if you're admitting students based solely on achievement in high school, most kids from public schools just don't compare. In all likelihood, the above-average student at Exeter has accomplished more with his time than most other students at other high schools. Does that mean that that student should be admitted every time over the kid from North Dakota with two AP classes at his school?</p>

<p>My position is no, obviously. I think taking the surrounding circumstances into consideration is important in determining the ability of students. I think a student who manages to thrive with few opportunities shows more character than a marginally better student with more opportunities, and that this effort should be considered. Coming from a disadvantaged background in itself shows talent, and I think this actually is reflected in minority performance in college. The study you cited was not only sixteen (!) years old, but completely irrelevant. Much more important is performance in college. After all, the primary goal behind college admissions is to determine whether students will be successful at their school. Graduation statistics at top colleges (lower ranked colleges practice AA more rarely) show that minority students clearly perform at comparable rates to their peers.</p>

<p>Ultimately, your main point is wrong, as I said before. You're saying that he was rejected solely on the basis of race, because he likely would have been accepted had be been black. But that's a ridiculous argument. You can just as easily say that he was rejected on the basis of extracurriculars--if he'd just gone to the IMO, he likely would have been accepted. Or you could say that he was rejected on the basis of location. If he lived in Idaho, he would have likely been accepted. Because college admissions are so holistic, you can't say he was rejected or accepted simply because he was Asian. While you can argue that individual students get accepted partly through race, you can't argue the reverse--that students are rejected because of race. </p>

<p>Oh, by the way, I'm an Asian American myself. I'm not arguing out of straight self-interest, if you're wondering.</p>

19

<p>This is ridiculous!! Unfortunately once you are in the "majority" in college admissions, you will be discriminated against if their quota has been filled...welcome to the real world. Also, know of many others who have been accepted at either H, Y and rejected at P and any other combination of differences in acceptance to these schools. This is not justification for a lawsuit..they readily state that they want a diverse student population. Any one who applies to these schools know that they can get rejected. They are looking to meet their needs with students from all different ethnicities and backgrounds...even if they wanted to admit someone who wasn't quite as smart...they may have had that "something" admissions wanted and saw. Get over yourself!!</p>

20

<p>Ahh this reminds me of how much I hated AA when I got rejected to Harvard and a Hispanic classmate of mine was accepted. I'm over the rejection now (although I still hate AA).</p>

<p>This was the general gist of my college application.
1530 SATS.
750, 780, 760 SAT II.
Valedictorian (1/392)
4 sport varsity athlete
editor in chief of newspaper
class vice president
1st place science fair 3 years in a row
a bunch of character, community service, and science awards
3rd grade religion teacher / group leader
co-founder of charity that raised 60 grand in 2 years for premature babies
some other lesser things</p>

<p>The hispanic Havard student was 8th in my class, no sports, a few clubs, nothing special, a lower SAT score, and was less personable than me. </p>

<p>If my application read Hispanic, I'd be in Harvard. No doubt about it. Racism.</p>

<p>I</p>