Dance issues

College Majors Musical Theater Major
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<p>My D took it upon herself to start dance last August. Yes, she is the only high school kid in a room full of elementary and middle schoolers but she has been a trooper and has stuck with it. She is taking tap, jazz and ballet. She was also on the school swim team (swam competitively year round for about 7 years) and was doing all of those activities along with a production of Macbeth (Banquo; she got to die! lol) and school in the fall and winter. Anyway, she started to come home after dance crying and in pain from her hips and also after swim practice. Took her to an orthopod and physical therapy ensued. After months of therapy, her one hip is better, the other not so much. Doc recommended an MRI to rule out abnormalities. Nothing found on MRI. The doctors advice was to lay off the ballet since it is the one continuing source of pain. He said that it is likely that it is just her particular muscular/skeletal structure that is the problem.</p>

<p>Given that, it will be time to sign up for dance again in the fall. The doc seems to think we should just not fool with the ballet especially if she is swimming. I don't know how the dance studio will feel about that. I don't mind paying more for just jazz and tap if the money is an issue for the studio. How should I approach this with the studio and will it be bad for her college auditions if she has only had a year of ballet? According to D, (I have not yet seen her dance; recital is 2 June) she is very good at tap, okay at jazz and wretched at ballet, lol. Any suggestions, been-there-done-that stories? </p>

<p>Also, not swimming isn't really an option for her in her senior year. The team needs her and she freakin loves it! If there were 48 hours in a day she would be swimming year round. I really don't know how she does everything she does... Advice/stories welcome!</p>

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<p>Yes, being “wretched” at ballet will hurt her in her auditions, for sure, but long-term concerns are more important for her success in school: if she can’t do regular ballet, what will happen in her freshman year when she is required to be in ballet? I know of a few situations where MT top schools which have reputations for “not caring much” about dance (b/c they care more about other disciplines) threatened to kick students out of their programs if they couldn’t get their ballet up to minimum par; those students had similar physical restrictions that they worked hard to improve with PT, etc. So make sure your orthopod knows the whole story and get his prediction for the likelihood that she will be able to dance pain-free once she isn’t swimming. You may want to take her to a dance specialist orthopod.</p>

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<p>A little known ballet fact : some people don’t have rounded balls at the hip socket ,but more of a cube shape . My son who did ballet for 8 years at SAB in NY ended up tearing the linings in both hip sockets from all the stretching and abnormal movements .He had surgery and quit ballet . He spent 6 weeks on crutches and has been careful ,but he recovered .No more dance for him ! He saw an orthopedic doctor who specialized in dance injuries at NY City Ballet .This was 6 years ago .Something to think about .</p>

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<p>It’s not that she isn’t willing but is the pain and potentially screwing things up worse worth it. I’m sure she is not as bad in ballet as she thinks she is. Will she ever be on pointe? Nope, but not her goal. She is apparently a beast in tap according to her teacher. Heck, somebody has to be a hoofer out there, right? I just don’t know how it will pan out. D is signed up for a special conditioning program this summer so maybe that will help further.</p>

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<p>Walker1194, I’m with CoachC on this one – I worry about your daughter’s potential for long-term dance success – not the years (or lack thereof) of training brought to college, but the potential for long-term injury. And it’s a confounding factor – does the swimming cause her to use her legs/hips differently? In such case, is she working against those years of swim conditioning to hold her turnout (an admittedly unnatural position) in ballet class? You mentioned the doc feels that (thankfully there is no visible problem on the MRI!) it’s an anatomical structure issue for her. But dance classes (even non-ballet) on the college level for MTs are INTENSE. She will most likely have a required ballet course, and jazz warmups often include a “balletic” component. </p>

<p>What is the summer conditioning program? I agree that an orthopod or PT who specializes in dancers would be an excellent second opinion. They can help a dancer learn the way to work through healing, and work correctly. (It’s possible that in her current class, she hasn’t yet learned how to work correctly through her legs and hips…ballet is a lot more complicated than “stick your feet out sideways”). Pilates, especially reformer work under the supervision of a therapist who understands dancers, can also be helpful. </p>

<p>Pain is the body’s way of saying, “pay attention!” Not necessarily quit working…but work smarter.</p>

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<p>Sent you a PM. My daughter was also a year-round competitive swimmer for many years and was a 4 year varsity swimmer in HS and captain her senior year. Swimming was why we could not do auditions at Unifides. Her team needed her too and the team went to State and won for the first time ever. Wouldn’t have traded that experience for anything. </p>

<p>Swimming is also partially why her dance training was limited. Something had to give. A lot of vocal training and really great acting training. Dance… some very good training where it could be fit in but it was sporatic in comparison.</p>

<p>My daugher wishes there was a way to keep swimming in college but knows it is probably over because of the theatre commitments. She made sure to get the most out of her last year of swimming while in high school. Going forward instead of her shoulders hurting, her hips probably will. She’s no ballerina either but I suspect she’ll be more of one than she is right now. My daughter got into many wonderful programs so clearly, she had enough dance for them to realize she could move and had potential to be even better with more time and training. Set realistic goals. Your daughter needs to know enough to manage the choreography in the audition room. Meanwhile, swim!!!</p>

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<p>Our orthopod, who works with a lot of dancers (we were referred) and was a former Olympic qualifier in swimming said that a lot of her problem was weakness (which she is correcting) and plain overuse. Spending 20 hours a week dancing or swimming is a lot to ask your body to do. His recommendation was to not do swimming and ballet at the same time. </p>

<p>I’m sure that my daughter also pushes herself very hard in these classes. She is with younger students but many have been dancing for years. Her instructors tell me that she is one of the hardest workers that they have seen in a long time. She has apparently picked it up very quickly. If we have to choose between swimming and ballet next year, swimming will win out.</p>

<p>I’m guessing that even in intense college dance classes that you aren’t working nearly as hard as she was doing both swimming and dancing. I don’t have any doubt that she can handle dance classes later on, just can’t do both dance and swim. Like halflokum says, you can’t do it all and D is very much looking forward to a breaking a couple of school records next year. She won’t have the opportunity to do that again ever. She can always take dance.</p>

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<p>Echoing Fauxmaven’s post. A friend’s daughter had tears most likely from years of ballet’s focus on “turn out” and had to have both hips operated on. Successful swimmers typically have very narrow hips. In women, that is often the result of having a femoral anteversion–the antithesis of ballet turn out. In addition to overuse, there could be structural reasons why she isn’t compatible with ballet.</p>

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<p>Sent you a pm</p>

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<p>An amazing young lady, one of my daughter’s friends, included among her numerous activities both dance (ballet only due to time restraints) and swim team, (also saludatorian of her graduating class, member of every club there is, more community service hours than anyone, beauty queen, violin and piano, and so on…she never slept, says my daughter)</p>

<p>My point is that I don’t think the way swim develops your body and the way ballet develops your body are necessarily incompatible. This girl was very good at both and did not have any problems at all. (and has a perfect little beauty queen figure meaning that her hips are a good bit wider than her waist, but are neither too wide nor narrow) BUT she did cut way, way back on dance during swim season and regretfully did not have time to do a solo in her senior recital and as I said was only in ballet, she did not have time to do tap and jazz. (is planning on med school, not MT, so she didn’t need jazz or tap anyway). Swim was more her deal though she didn’t want to quit ballet altogether, but not even this never say too busy little person tried to do both full time, so I think the previous advice about backing off one during heavy times for the other, is a very good idea.</p>

<p>BUT, she did begin ballet as a preschooler. According to the instructors at the studio she and my D attended, ballet is not just a matter of learning the moves but it takes years of training to condition and build up the proper muscles and movement - so maybe it’s a matter of your D going too far too fast? There are several motions and poses that our little ones are strictly forbidden to even attempt until they are big and strong enough on account of injury. Even with the most expert teachers in the world, and correct technique, injury happens in ballet.</p>

<p>Having said that though, and not to cast any aspersions on your studio because it may not be the case at all and obviously I don’t know anything about your d’s studio but there is a range of quality in dance studios as in everything, and some know how not to cause injury better than others…if she is going to try to continue ballet (and no, she won’t ever be on point starting at her age, but my understanding is that it’s the basic language of dance that ballet teaches, not pointe, which is valuable in MT) you might want to evaluate if it is the right school and right instructor for your D - not having any more info on your situation I don’t know if you already did all that and there is something going on that is nothing to do with the teaching.</p>

<p>Our studio obviously preferred their dancers take jazz, tap and ballet (also they do Spanish and acrobatics, which is NOT the same as gymnastic) and assumed every dancer would take the full load, but there were several girls, like this friend, who for personal situations such as hers could not take all the classes and they were very accomodating and gracious about it. (the director of the school could not possibly be ungracious, I don’t think she knows how - wonderful role model) My daughter was probably best at tap and she loved tap and was one of the best tappers but her senior year, on advice of her wise MTCA coaches, stopped taking tap to make time for extra voice lessons as she needed more work on that. She kept up ballet and jazz. She misses having had tap as she loves it but had she not put in the extra voice her audition season would have been a disaster and she was time stressed enough as it was so it was indeed the right thing to do and her dance instructor was understanding about that.</p>

<p>Your daughter’s studio should be understanding and gracious and willing accommodate her needs when you discuss this with them - I would have red flags about a school that refused to understand special circumstances.</p>

<p>However, I will say that the one thing our studio was quite upfront about (and I agree) was that team sports usually ended up being incompatible, schedule wise, with dance, as most of them had heavy practice in the spring just when recital was in production, and for most of them, especially as they got past the little baby team stages and more serious, they pretty much had to decide if they were going into dance or sports. </p>

<p>(it was a no brainer for us…as desperately difficult of a life as dance is, far worse I think than MT, if my D had had a classic ballerina body she might have tried for it…she will always be a dancer and I will always stop whatever I am doing to watch dancers dancing…we say “dance is our sport.” lol.)</p>

<p>BTW our wise and beloved “Miss Kathy” says it takes years for ballet to look like anything at all - if you have a talent for tap you can pick it up pretty quick but I just don’t think there is any rushing ballet. I think it’s just too challenging to “learn” fast and as I said before it’s not so much a matter of the mind learning it as it is the muscle learning it, and it just doesn’t happen overnight - so I don’t think your D should be discouraged that she doesn’t keep up with ones younger than her who have been dancing for years. I would completely expect them to outdance her in ballet - you just can’t compensate for those years of work, no matter how dedicated and hardworking. You just can’t outsmart your ballet muscles, you have to let them build up.</p>

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<p>^^

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<p>This is somewhat true but sometimes a kid can do both (though I think someone striving for a BFA in MT path, like my own MT kid, often has to give up sports in order to fit in heavy duty commitments to singing, acting, dancing training and shows). But I do have a daughter who did not pursue MT in college or as a career, but this daughter had one foot in sports and one in performing arts (my MT daughter used to as well but gave up the sports in 8th grade as the commitment to her performing arts stuff took over). Anyway, my D who did not go into MT in college, took dance every year from preschool through 12th grade, though didn’t take as many dance classes each week as her MT pursuing sister. She typically took two dance classes a week (usually tap and jazz or tap and hip hop). She also was in a tap dance troupe with her sister. In senior year, she was asked to take over for as semester for the teacher of a tap class for middle school age students and did that too for pay when the teacher had to take a leave. Anyway, she continued with dance (which was 25 miles from us in fact) even though she was a three varsity sport athlete, studied two instruments, band, jazz, band, student government, etc. Sometimes the sports did conflict and we just explained it to our dance studio when that happened. Her spring sport used to be softball but that softball coach was NOT understanding of the annual dance show in May or of All States for music (which my D got into each year) and so after ninth grade, she switched her spring sport to tennis as that coach was supportive of her being in All States and the annual dance show, even though she was the number one singles player on the team. She was in soccer in the fall and ski team in the winter. So, she managed to balance sports with performing arts, though gave up the school musicals, even though she had done lots of musical theater prior to high school. So, it can be done to be in dance and sports as she was her whole life. But honestly, for someone pursuing a BFA path, it often means putting most eggs into the singing, dancing, acting and shows basket as my MT did even though she did soccer, ski racing, figure skating for her whole life prior to high school. She gave those up in high school to just do performing arts (which included studying two instruments and being in jazz band on top of singing, dancing, acting, musicals, plays).</p>

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<p>The conflict with dance and sports - as opposed to other things such as musical instruments, etc - was that very important, could not be missed, finals playoffs types of games were almost always on Saturdays in the same late spring months that very important, could not be missed, dress rehearsal and the recital itself occurred - and while our dance instructor did not like dance classes being missed too often throughout the year, it was workable; whereas, missing the dress rehearsal and recital itself due to a sports event was absolutely not acceptable as it severely impacted the number and was hard on and not fair to the other girls in it and a dance recital number is almost never going to have any kind of understudy or anyone who can “fill in” that spot on such short notice (especially as the numbers are generally done by a class of girls all close to the same age, and took them practicing since December to master.)</p>

<p>By the same token, a coach would not be thrilled, after having advanced all that way, to be missing key players during playoffs which of course due to the unpredictable nature of who keeps winning, can’t be scheduled in advance - as opposed to the recital which due to renting the venue, has to be scheduled years in advance (in our town anyway, we have a shortage of venues) and absolutely could not be rescheduled even if they were willing to do so.</p>

<p>Fall sports didn’t pose nearly the same issues, obviously.</p>

<p>Of course there are kids who are the exceptions, as your daughter and my daughter’s friend prove, but if recital season and playoff season happen at the same time, there can be irreconcilable schedule conflicts which was the main reason that our studio cautioned about the risks of doing both. </p>

<p>By the time the girls were in high school, most everyone had decided where their interests really lay and had gotten more adept at managing busy schedules without negatively impacting everyone else, but frankly, when all the little girls who missed dance all spring because of T ball and then performed badly in our recitals next to the girls who had not missed so much finally dropped out of dance and just left those either dedicated enough to do only dance or talented enough to juggle other things well, it was quite a relief to the rest of us. (many of them didn’t like dance nearly as much as their mothers did anyway - lol) Simply not taking an entire discipline in the first place such as jazz or ballet or tap, of course doesn’t negatively effect any one else in the least. But especially with the tiny ones, other girls in the class who didn’t know the numbers made it hard on them and also lots of absences during practice made it really hard to choreograph when every week was a different roster of girls. (If you were absent the day “Miss Ann” was choreographing the little solo moments in the advanced classes, guess what, you didn’t get one…and no sympathy from her about it)</p>

<p>There are always those kids who seem to be able to do 48 hours in a 24 hour day and many of them seem to be theater kids, but for most kids and their parents, either the irreconcilable conflicts or the stress leads to the conclusion of having to drop something eventually. My daughter did quite a lot too along with working and clubs and all the usual MT stuff and grades and coaching and auditioning and so much more, and I was REALLY glad when that year was over…and so was she!</p>

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<p>Walker1194 - I wonder if a change in dance studio would help? It could be a teacher who is missing things that is causing the pain. It’s sad to say but there are many unqualified ballet teachers out there. If she wants to do MT, ballet is very important for college auditions, especially for girls.</p>

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<p>^^^agreed^^^</p>

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<p>^^ yup, yup ^^</p>

<p>My daughter suggested that your daughter always s t r e t c h after swimming because the hip and leg muscles that she uses for swimming are tightened and shortened and less flexible for ballet. She alluded to yoga where any toning or strengthening moves are followed by stretching and relaxing. Yoga, in fact, might be a good thing for your daughter to do during swim season, especially if she’s not in ballet.</p>

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<p>I actually researched the dance studios before we signed up. This is a great studio with some awesome teachers. We are working with a personal trainer this summer who has a masters in physiology and is a former swimmer and D1 athlete. D will be working with her twice a week this summer so we hope for some improvement at least in her comfort level.</p>

<p>I did ask d about how hard she pushes herself in class. She acknowledged that she pushes herself pretty hard. No one can question her work ethic! :)</p>

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<p>Personally, I’d have her get a PT (Physical Therapy) evaluation even to work with the trainer (despite those credentials) but that’s just me. Is the personal trainer experienced with dancers? ballet?</p>

<p>My daughter had some hip problems several years back - she was dancing 6 days a week at the time, but it only bothered her during ballet - her orthopod, who had worked with professional ballet companies, found nothing orthopedic, but sent her for PT eval and therapy (also very experienced with ballet dancers) - one thing they found was that she had some weak muscles - within a couple of sessions, she was much improved and by the time she completed the full course of therapy, the problems were resolved and have never resurfaced.</p>

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<p>We’ve already done the orthopod and PT route. It was helpful, but I think we can do more. D is weak and the PT did help with that and she is continuing on her own with the exercises. How you can swim a 50y free in :25.xx and be weak, I have no idea.</p>

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<p>Because the used muscles get stronger and the unused muscles get weaker… (adductors vs abductors…)</p>