Dartmouth College Ending AP Credit

Colleges and Universities A-Z Dartmouth College
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<p>Here’s how I see the situation with AP tests as college credit.</p>

<p>AP classes probably aren’t equivalent in difficulty to college-level classes, generally speaking. They do cover pretty much the same material but are easier to accommodate high school schedules and lives. So, when you use AP credit to bypass redundant classes, you’re prepared for what you’re placed into in terms of knowledge, but not necessarily in terms of work capabilities. There is a point, consequently, in taking AP classes and then intro college versions of the same subjects: you’ll become accustomed to college-level work and expectations, but in the context of material you already know.</p>

<p>I doubt that Dartmouth had anything but money and prestige on its mind when making this decision, but we shouldn’t entirely write off taking intro college classes after AP ones as a waste of time and money or AP classes as worthless.</p>

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<p>Bob Schaeffer (Public Education Director at FairTest) posted this list on the National Association for College Admission Counseling forum this morning. Note that Bob says it’s still a work in progress.</p>

<p>Institutions that grant placement but not credit for AP scores.</p>

<p>Amherst College</p>

<p>Bennington College</p>

<p>Boston College</p>

<p>Colby College</p>

<p>Dartmouth College</p>

<p>Eastman School of Music of the University of Rochester</p>

<p>New College of Florida</p>

<p>United States Coast Guard Academy</p>

<p>Ventura College</p>

<p>Williams College</p>

<p>** Institutions that grant neither credit nor placement for AP scores**</p>

<p>California Institute of Technology</p>

<p>Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering</p>

<p>Harvey Mudd College</p>

<p>Manhattan School of Music</p>

<p>Medical University of South Carolina</p>

<p>St. John’s College (MD)</p>

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<p>So what do AP courses and test do for a student if selected college will not accept AP credit. Well, for starters, they are usually an easy tip of the most difficult courses a school offers and the student is taking. Yes, there can be more difficult courses, but the AP curriculum is universally subscribed, and it just takes an instant to see how good a school is about successfully teaching the materials in that curriculum by looking at its school profile. So if you see a kid taking lots of AP courses at a school that has a pretty good track record of 4s and 5s on the AP exams with most AP students taking the exam, you know you have a kid taking some rigorous courses with a good chance of knowing the material reasonably well. Important when dealing with selective colleges and coming from a school that does not tend to send kids to such colleges and is unknown on the college radar. </p>

<p>It’s also a good indicator that certain material as prescribed as a freshman college course is being taught with the material being covered. As parents it’s difficult to make that judgment about our own kids’ schools at time. Certain schools with the rep, yes. But others, ummm, not so easy. </p>

<p>Also, though Dartmouth may not be giving academic college credit for the AP grades, it doesn’t mean that they are not looking at AP scores and courses on the transcript. I’ve yet to see one school to say, “don’t bother to send AP test scores” to admissions. Admissions has minutes to make decisions on students for all the “Careful, every consideration made” assurances they give, and AP test scores and grades do say something very quickly. If you don’t think some 5s on AP test, and an A in senior year fall BC calc doesn’t mean something, you are wrong. It means a lot to colleges, particularly selective ones. </p>

<p>Even if a given school doesn’t offer credit for AP courses, down the road, another program might. Your kid may not stay at a given school where he started, or want something different later, and that 5 in AP government and World , or even a 3 in it can make a difference. My oldest underwent a certification program that required courses that he did not take in college, but they took even 3 s in certain AP course, even CLEP scores in the subject. But if you had nada, you had to take the danged course over a semester. And yes, government and world history were in that mix as well as a science. </p>

<p>Also not giving credit for the course does not mean, that you are not exempt from something for having it. Some colleges will exempt you from languages or other such requirement with a certain AP score or even SAT 2 score. Won’t give you college credit, but just exempts you from the requirement. That happens a lot, by the way.</p>

<p>We’ll see how long Dartmouth sticks with this, too, and if other colleges follow suit. They may have to back off if they lose enough desirable students who choose a like school because of the credits they get from their AP Cache. I know some kdis who have specialized things they want to take and will go where they can cut throught he chafe and start, and if accepted to a number of schools, will use that as a criterion to choose. If feedback shows too many acceptees bring that up, we’ll see some rapid back pedaling. Have seen that when top schools got rid fo early programs and other things and found they were losing some of their top picks in doing that. When that yield number starts to pulse, they jump.</p>

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<p>So far I have found AP courses to mirror university ones very closely. AP Physics C was very much like Newtonian Mechanics, except it is missing special relativity. AP Calculus AB/BC mirrors elementary calculus courses. The only exception I have seen so far is honors math courses, which are in a league of their own.</p>

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<p>At Carleton, at least in math and the sciences, they use APs for placement, and you can get credit for them but not until you have successfully completed the next level course there. So if you complete multivariable calculus with a certain grade (I can’t remember what), you can get credit for AP calculus BC, but if you don’t take multivariable, no credit for the AP.</p>

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<p>This quote makes me cringe. Canada doesn’t have anything close to a standard, nationwide curriculum for advanced courses. Perhaps you mean British A-levels… or Ontario 4U-levels.</p>

<p>I know McGill (and just about any Quebec university, for that matter) is big on granting AP credits for a reason: in-province students cover AP-level material before getting into in-province Us in the first place, and it does follow the pace of American colleges more closely than average AP classes.</p>

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<p>The original purpose is described by what “AP” stands for – to allow students who already know college-freshman level material to get advanced placement in a standardized manner so that they will not have to waste time and tuition repeating what they already know. Colleges would theoretically not need to have their own placement tests (although some do anyway, including Dartmouth). Of course, the proliferation of low value “AP lite” tests has obscured this purpose.</p>

<p>Public schools tend to be generous with credit units for AP tests, while private schools are typically less generous (note that credit unit generosity does not necessarily mean subject credit or placement generosity). This is probably for financial reasons. A public university in-state student who graduates early (or avoids graduating late) saves the state the in-state subsidy money, while a private university student who graduates early (or avoids graduating late) loses the tuition revenue s/he brings.</p>

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<p>Sally, what’s interesting with BC is that though they do not give college credit for APs, they will still offer those with a lot of AP test with high scores, the option to graduate in 3 years if they so desire. They also will also drop requirements and let kids go into upper level courses if their AP schools merit it. </p>

<p>Most of the schools do allow students to use APs as prerequisites even they do not get actual college credit and they can also satisfy general school requirements so that departmantal and area requirements are fullfilled. THey just don’t get credit towards the required number of courses for graduation. Colby is particularly interesting in that they actual lowered the number of terms required for graduation to 7 from 8 even as they do not give credit for AP courses. </p>

<p>Some parents have been complaining how some schools are now refusing to take courses from other colleges over the summer to fulfil requirements on a blanket basise. Holy Cross has come up a few times. Graduating a semester early, or taking a term off and taking courses toward ones degree and still gradauting on time is being an option that is squeezed out when that happens. I know some folks who did that in my day when finances were tight.</p>

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<p>When I was in high school and college way back when, I got credit units and subject credit for two AP tests. I did not repeat the courses in college and did fine. One of the two was calculus BC, which was taught over one year right after completing precalculus and trigonometry. The other was a semester-long course in high school that was credited for a semester of college course.</p>

<p>In other words, neither was an “AP lite”. But, from reading these forums, it seems common these days that many high schools have turned them into “AP lites” by having calculus over two years (AB one year, rest of BC the next year) and making year-long courses out of AP courses that normally get credited for only a semester in college.</p>

<p>I still consider it a waste of time and tuition to repeat stuff that one already knows (especially within the precious and expensive schedule space one has at a four year school), but the “AP lite-ification” of many AP courses in high schools is not a good trend, and is something that students should watch out for when they find that actual college courses often cover material twice as quickly.</p>

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<p>No surprise, given that their “freshman level” courses are probably like honors courses at other colleges, or more rigorous. For example, “freshman calculus” there is more like real analysis, and both schools require all entering freshmen to have had calculus in high school or another college before.</p>

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<p>If the Calculus BC exam has not been made easier, I think a 4 or especially a 5 should count for college credit even if the student took 1.5 years of high school classes to get through the curriculum.</p>

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<p>“But, from reading these forums, it seems common these days that many high schools have turned them into “AP lites” by having calculus over two years (AB one year, rest of BC the next year) and making year-long courses out of AP courses that normally get credited for only a semester in college.”</p>

<p>While the above statement is factually true, I want to point out that it is true only in terms of high school curriculum rigor. Most universities grant credits or placement based on AP scores but not the length of AP courses.</p>

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<p>nepop - it is possible for an AP class to be equivalent to a college level class, but it depends greatly on the teacher, the books used, and a number of other factors. When I was a student, I took AP Calculus and AP Physics in high school, and accepted credit for both. My college had a special section of Calculus 3 designed for students entering with AP credit, which spend the first couple of weeks reviewing everything they felt was important from Calc I and II to ensure we had a good foundation before moving onto Calc 3 material. But that was because they knew not all classes were equal.</p>

<p>In Physics I went into the regular Physics III class, and felt well prepared - but part of that may be that we used the same text as I had used in my HS AP Physics class, so our class tracked the college classes very well (I compared my HS class with friends who didn’t take AP, and they covered the same chapters to about the same degree).</p>

<p>That’s not to say someone else’s AP class would have been good preparation, as it might have used a different text, or emphasized different chapters. They might not have had access to the same lab facilites either. This is why some colleges don’t accept AP credit for certain lab sciences, and sometimes don’t accept transfer credit either - because they want to ensure the students learned the material THEY consider most important.</p>

<p>It is not really a question of whether AP classes in general prepare students well for the next level of college classes in general, but if they cover the equivalent material to the classes those students will end up skipping at a particular college. </p>

<p>It should be up to the individual colleges to choose whether to accept not only AP and IB credits, but whether they accept transfer credits for specific classes - either in place of specific classes, or as general elective credits. If you end up with a credential with their name on it, they should have some control over the quality of the courses which form the basis for that credential.</p>

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<p>Let me tell you the inherent flaw in the reasoning I see for not giving college credit for AP Courses, at a number of schools. They won’t give the credit because they don’t consider mastery of the material covered in the AP course to be the equivalent of their course that corresponds to it. Yet, the will let that AP test grade be the prequisite of an advanced course based on that material, and further allow AP test scores take care of general requirements. Not good enough to get credit for Psych 1, but you if there is a social sciences requirement at the school with Psych 1 being one of the most basic classes to fulfil that requirement, a student gets that requirement covered by that AP Psych Exam result. Same with Calc. You can go right into LInear Algebra, but you don’t get Calc 1, 2, 3 credit with a 5 on the AP Calc BC test. Oh, and your math requirement is fulfilled by that 5 if there are departmental requirements for one or two math courses. You just have to get 120 or whatever the number of requirements are to graduate from that school, and you can’t get them covered by AP courses, so you have to take the same number of courses or credtis to graduate is what they are saying.</p>

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<p>Sorry but this just seems like a way for professors to protect their jobs. All courses that count toward graduation must be taken at their school. My three children have been able to use 4-6 credits (courses) for graduation. Saved us one semester in tuition.</p>

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<p>AP’s are next to useless at Pomona. There are only a few classes that will let you use AP as placement for more advanced classes (not credit): psych, stats, and Calc BC. You can bypass the foreign language requirement but you won’t get credit. The only time you can get credit is when you graduate- if you don’t have the 32 classes needed to graduate you can use up to two non-redundant AP’s as credit. At a school where 91% of the class graduates within the four years though, this rarely, if never, happens. </p>

<p>I agree with Dartmouth’s decision. I made 5’s on AP English Lang and Lit and struggled in my writing class because we didn’t have take-homes or research papers. Multiple choice doesn’t exist in college.</p>

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<p>At last something useful coming from the pseudo-scientists and activists at FairTest! What a departure from the usual moronic drivel produced by that shameful group of abject profiteers.</p>

<p>Rather than criticizing Dartmouth for finding enough of a spine to try to curb the heresy of the AP/IB boondoggle, their academic leaders deserve LOTS of applause. It is obvious that the same leaders are not afraid to make unpopular decisions and face the “wrath” of applicants. Perhaps the departure of its latest President has much to do with this renewal of “doing what is right” and not only politically correct and easy.</p>

<p>The AP should be solely used for the reasons the program was created, namely for offering LIMITED advanced placement. And that means no role in admissions, and no credits. </p>

<p>Robbing students of a real education has to stop somewhere.</p>

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<p>More importantly, the rigor/quality of teaching AP courses differs greatly depending on the school or sometimes even on the individual teacher teaching the course in question. For instance, some of the “AP” courses I’ve seen taught at a few well-off suburban HSs were taught at a lower level than the non-AP courses at my urban public magnet high school where students had no issues self-studying and getting 4-5s on the AP exams. </p>

<p>Morever, getting a 5 on a given AP exam isn’t a guarantee of mastery of given subject matter as demonstrated by some older undergrad classmates…including one who got into a lot of difficulties in his upper-level courses because of substantial knowledge gaps that weren’t covered deeply enough/at all when he APed out of US History with a 5 from a respectable East Coast prep school. </p>

<p>I’ve also read from several posts on cc that AP courses/curricula has been watered down over the decades to accommodate a greater influx of students who are increasingly being encouraged to take AP…even if their academic level is marginal at best. </p>

<p>I’m just wondering if Dartmouth and other elite/respectable colleges are finally coming to the realization that today’s AP courses aren’t the same as the one’s of those from 2-3 decades ago.</p>

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<p>I’d suggest another motivation. Dartmouth wants a diploma from their institution to mean that students spent 4 years doing work at Dartmouth, not getting their degree in 2 or 3 years or going to school 3/4 time.</p>

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<p>A motivation that should be emulated at most schools!</p>