Dartmouth vs. University of Illinois Engineering

College Search & Selection
1

Hi everyone :slight_smile:
I am applying to college in the fall, and right now my top 2 schools are Dartmouth and University of Illinois. I would like to major in engineering and hear your thoughts about one vs the other

I currently live in IL (in state tuition!). U of I has such a strong engineering program which makes it a super appealing option. I would likely apply for computer engineering (or perhaps chemical engineering). Unfortunately, I don’t love the sports/Big 10 vibe too much, and I know Dartmouth has on average smaller classes.

On the other hand, I LOVED Dartmouth’s campus and toured the engineering building. I know rankings aren’t very unbiased, but why isn’t Dartmouth’s Engineering program ranked as high as U of I? What are the differences? I am also interested in their CS/Engineering degree.

I know I would be happy at either school, but I would like to apply EA/ED. Any advice and knowledge would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!!

2

Dartmouth has different variants of engineering programs:

AB program: 12 quarter (4 year) program, not ABET-accredited, for those who want to go into typical Ivy League work like Wall Street or consulting but with some engineering background; not for those who want to work in engineering.

BE program: 13-15 quarter (>4 year) program, ABET-accredited, for those who want to work in engineering.

Obviously, the five year nature of the ABET-accredited BE program at Dartmouth is a disadvantage.

However, if you are not decided on what engineering major to study, be aware that you must apply to the major at UIUC (which affects admission selectivity), and changing majors later can be difficult because engineering majors tend to be “full” there. Some students are admitted to UIUC in general studies instead of their desired majors; they would also find it difficult to get into engineering or other popular majors that are “full”.

In terms of the campus vibe, be aware that Dartmouth has a very high fraternity/sorority participation rate, so consider whether this is desirable or not for you.

3

Hi @ucbalumnus thank you so much for the response! I would want to do the BE program at Dartmouth, not AB. The fifth year is a concern for me unfortunately.

If I already know I’m not interested in joining a sorority, or Greek life in general, would that be a big problem? I respect Greek life, but it’s just not for me based on the research I have done. Thank you!

4

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~oir/pdfs/undergraduate_student_life.pdf indicates that, among recent classes, 64% to 70% of students joined fraternities and sororities.

Also, 44% to 47% of women in recent years participated in varsity sports.

5

What appeals to you so much about Dartmouth? They would not be the Ivy that comes to mind for strong engineering and CS. Have you considered Cornell? Obviously a bigger school but in a more rural setting with a spectacular campus (and similar weather), but with a fantastic engineering college.

That said, you are super fortunate to be instate for such a well regarded program!

6

No merit aid at Dartmouth. At $74,000 per year and 5 years, the math does not look promising. That’s approaching $400,000 for a degree that isn’t highly respected in engineering circles.

Illinois by comparison will have larger classes, and more students. The trade off is that they have better facilities, much better research, and it will be far cheaper.

You might want to consider similar feeling schools that offer merit aid if you have good stats. Off the top of my head, I’d look at WPI, Lehigh and Case Western Reserve.

Good luck!

7

@momofsenior1 When I visited the engineering program, it seemed very strong & Dartmouth was building a new Computer Science wing next to the engineering building. I loved the scenery and the location (cold winters don’t scare me!). Now, however, I am beginning to have doubts due to its low engineering major rankings.

also, @eyemgh As someone who doesn’t want to stray far from strict engineering as a career, will future employers actually not respect the degree as much as one from UIUC? I’m not interested in business or finance, strictly science

8

From everything I know, they are many levels apart. The only Ivy that gets much respect from engineers is Cornell. The rest are on par with pedestrian state schools. Now there’s nothing wrong with pedestrian state schools, but they aren’t almost $400,000.

The thing that I personally found attractive when my son was vetting schools, was that the D Plan. Because it’s 5 years, you can take more arts, history and social science classes than you can in a typical 4 year ABET accredited program. Again, $400,000 for the privilege? Probably not.

My son decided not to apply to any Ivy school. Cornell was too remote with too much of a reputation as a grind for his taste, and the rest just didn’t stack up in terms of the quality of undergraduate engineering relative to his other options.

He ended up at Cal Poly in ME, BTW and is now a Masters Candidate.

I’ll summon @boneh3ad, the engineering Forum Champion. He’s very familiar with UIUC and will have a more valid opinion than mine on this.

Good luck! It’s a fun time!

9

@eyemgh thank you! (& congrats to your son!) $400,000 is definitely a lot when UIUC would cost only a fraction.

Does anyone have any other recommendations (besides WPI, Lehigh, Case Western Reserve, UIUC) for schools with strong engineering programs that I could look into? If not for EA/ED but also RD. I live very close to Northwestern & loved it, and could also see myself at Duke. I’ve heard Olin was good and LOVED MIT but that would be close to a crap shoot for me.

Thanks!

10

I would totally disagree with that comment on engineering for Ivy leaguers. Engineering at any school will depend on the cohort that is studying it. Princeton, Brown and Penn all have outstanding engineering programs, and every Ivy league school will have an outstanding cohort studying engineering with you. As far as Dartmouth goes, like I said before ,engineering concepts are the same at every school, its the depth that you go into the subjects that is only going to be limited by the cohort your studying with. You will not have ANY problem getting a job in engineering graduating from Dartmouth with an engineering degree, and the Dartmouth name will carry you into interviews before a lot of other schools.

11

According to USNews, Cornell is #10 in Engineering and Princeton is tied for 11th. So there are indeed highly regarded Engineering programs in the Ivy League.

Have you run the NPC on Dartmouth? Many families do not pay the full sticker price.

(Illinois is very good too – just a completely different experience)

12

Take a look at https://ece.illinois.edu/directory/faculty.asp and check out https://engineering.dartmouth.edu/about/facts
What do you think? It looks like ECE at UIUC has more faculty members than the total number of faculty member of the whole Dartmouth engineering school. Engineer is by training. UIUC has one of the best engineering programs in the country. However, UIUC is a very big state school. Big state school gives you a very different college experience than a private school with great reputation for teaching. Unless you are really rich, there is no good reason to go to an Ivy to do a B.S. in Engineering.

13

That’s because UIUC is a very big school, not sure what the number of faculty has to do with quality…………and I would definitely take Dartmouth over UIUC if it is comparable (or if money is no object) and it very well may be depending on your income.

14

Although I believe college rankings are mostly crap, I think this ranking is relatively more accurate than others (even for an undergraduate program) — https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-engineering-schools/electrical-engineering-rankings

I can’t find Dartmouth’s EE program on the ABET accredited list (http://main.abet.org/aps/AccreditedProgramsDetails.aspx?OrganizationID=378) :-/

At least Brown has an ABET accredited EE program. (http://main.abet.org/aps/AccreditedProgramsDetails.aspx?OrganizationID=364)

15

UI is mighty expensive, even instate. And you might be interested to know that for many middle class and low income students, an “Ivy” can be less out of pocket that thier instate flagship. (Hint: the Ivies and thier ilk have some of the most generous need-based financial aid.)

16

I don’t like rankings for engineering. The concepts you need to learn are well defined for at least the first 3 years, nothing revolutionary going on here, especially in the ME/CE fields. Here is how I look at it by importance.

  1. Cohort, if everyone is smart then you can go faster and in more depth in each course. Think MIT/Caltech.
  2. Opportunities, schools relationship with National Labs and industry, if they are running a Lab then they tend to hire there own students, industry tends to favor the college for internships.
  3. Faculty, are they near the top of the field doing cutting edge work (this is more important for masters then undergrad)

Actually you could think MIT/Caltech for all of these (but I guess that is why they are recognized at the top engineering schools) but then other schools have various degrees of strength in each of these three areas. Bottom line if you get top students your going to get top engineers.

The real reason I favor Dartmouth is that you will get a far better education at Dartmouth then UIUC, you can learn engineering just as well at either.

17

Vetting an engineering program is not rocket science. Go see Brown. Go see Penn. Judge for yourself if they have “outstanding engineering programs.” I have. They didn’t get applications from my son. He was pretty underwhelmed once he saw what else was out there. Now consider that in the Ivy League you will get no merit aid. Factor in that at Dartmouth, you will not get to use any AP credits.

As for the brilliant cohorts, and Caltech in particular, widely known for its brutal speed, buyer beware. Not one, but two Caltech/JPL professors told my son he’d be best served to look elsewhere. I’ll never forget the words of one of them, the manager of one of the most famous NASA programs of all time…“Caltech is not an undergraduate institution.”

Lastly, USNWR…what does its methodology in engineering have to say about the undergraduate experience? Educational Outcomes? Job placement? Nothing, because it’s based on a single, highly subjective, self perpetuating thing, the judgement of deans and senior faculty of “peer institutions.”

I look at it very differently than @CU123. My priorities would be:

  1. Curriculum (contrary to what's been posted, there are differences)
  2. Lab space for undergrads in support of the curriculum
  3. Class size
  4. Who is teaching said classes
  5. Clubs, Research, National Labs, etc. to put one's theory into practice.
  6. I put virtually zero emphasis on cohort. The cream rises to the top everywhere and the research bears this out. Students who are qualified to matriculate at the most selective schools, do well no matter where they go.
  7. I put less than zero emphasis on rankings, especially USNWR.
18

The thing to remember, above all, is that everything you read out here is some random person’s opinion, especially mine. Take them all with a grain of salt, and consider your audience. You’ll get a different opinion on the engineering forum than you will in the Ivy Leage forum. I’d post here too: http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/engineering-majors/

19

cyankat, kudos for your proactive exploration of the best return on investment education options for you. You seem to have great focus for someone about to enter college.

I would suggest you contact the ceo at 5 organizations for which you would love to work after college. Don’t worry about bothering the ceo, it will be sent to the best people within the organization to address your inquiry. Tell the ceo why you want to work there, and why they will be better off for having you (like a college app). I expect that if you are looking at a school like Dartmouth, there is something special that you can include (e.g., gpa, test scores, leadership, accomplishments) to grab their interest. Look at the mission of the organization, make sure that it matches your goals, and reflect that in your inquiry.

Request the ceo’s input on the most cost effective educational path to join their organization, and what you can best learn and demonstrate through your performance (e.g., major, gpa, extra-curriculars) once there to help accomplish their mission. Matching your capabilities and goals to their mission is very important. To really challenge you, try to keep your inquiry no longer than this reply. Within 30 days, if you either do not have enough responses or the responses that you have are too disparate, contact 5 more organizations.

Below the line advice which is too long for a ceo letter:

For those companies that do reply to you, please have the courtesy of updating them with what you decided, why, and ask them the best way to engage with their recruiting process both during school and after graduation. Don’t worry if you did not follow their specific counsel.

As I indicated earlier, your focus is great but not true of most entering college. It is ok to not know where you want to focus entering college or to change it once there. The most important thing is to have a passion and to have faculty who can help you translate that passion into a career which can harness that passion and pay your bills including student loans.

This exploration phase will not commit you to anything. Don’t be afraid to change majors. If you end up joining the New York Philharmonic, none of the ceo’s whom you contacted will be offended.

20

@eyemgh : It is interesting that my spouse’s advisor with a Ph.D. from Caltech does not recommend students go there for undergraduate education either.

I am not so sure. Dartmouth does not have an ABET accredited Computer/Electrical Engineering program.