<p>I posted this on the Williams thread as well, but I am interested in the perspective of folks on the Dartmouth thread, since you know Dartmouth better. Beyond the obvious differences -- e.g., size, fraternities, graduate students -- what do you see as the big differences between the two? For current D students who were also accepted at W, how did you make your decision?</p>
<p>My daughter was accepted at both and it was a difficult decision for her, they are both such excellent schools and in so many ways very similar. She wanted to be a biology major with a goal of getting a Phd so she can do research. What finally swung it to Dartmouth was the presence of the research labs associated with the Medical school. As a Freshman she worked in a Chem lab and now as a sophomore she is in a Microbiology lab. Educationally I can't imagine there is any difference between the schools. Size can be an issue, neither school is large, but Dartmouth is twice the size of Williams, which meant it was smaller than her large Midwest high school. There is no right size, but you will need to know your own preferences. The "obvious" differences you cite are really about the only differences between these two great schools.</p>
<p>Do you like the D-Plan which gives you a very flexible schedule or do you like William's more structured 4-1-4 schedule which allows you the opportunity study a class that is different from the rest of your classes during the winter?</p>
<p>Like Midwest Dad, my D had to make the same choice between Dartmouth and Williams (in fact she has about 7 friends from freshman year and on the DOC trip were students that she met during both the Dartmouth & Williams admitted student days) .</p>
<p>It was a very hard choice for her because Williams is also an amazing place (I cried when when I took the cards to the post office saying that she would not be attending Williams). The one thing that she did say is that you definitely feel the difference between 2000 and 4000 students. </p>
<p>I think what did it for her overall was the people; she called home at 4:00 am as a bunch of them were waiting for the Dartmouth coach with a student who was flying back to CA to tell me that she and her crew had decided together that they were going to attend Dartmouth. 4 years later, she still has dinner with those same friends. She has never waivered once from her decision to attend Dartmouth. She has had some amazing professors, did a study abroad term with her friends, while they were based at different FSPs they met up in a different location every weekend. She thinks that her classmates are amazing and have done some wonderful things. I recently asked her before she went back for her final term, if she had the chance to do things over would she change anything. Her response was, if I were to change anything, I would not have had all of the great experiences and friends that I have so I could never see myself giving this up.</p>
<p>Definitely visit both places as you will meet quite a few students who are making the same decision. You really have no "wrong" choice as it is going to come down to personal preference. No matter where you go, you will have a great experience and you will receive a wonderful education. </p>
<p>Congrats and all the best.</p>
<p>Sybbie and Midwest Dad are too generous. Dartmouth is Dartmouth, how can you even ask. My older sibs are there and I didn't get in and you have no clue how lucky you are. This is DARTMOUTH you are trying to compare to Williams. Take your gift and cherish it b/c I (and about 11,000 other people) would love to wrestle it away from you.</p>
<p>HAHAHA... I don't think the choice between Dartmouth and Williams is as simple as eaglet is conveying.. He/she is clearly not familiar with Williams.. Cross-admits are split 50/50 between the two schools. Your best bet is to go to previews, and go with your gut</p>
<p>I agree. Williams is an amazing school and its not so clear cut.</p>
<p>Personally I've always preferred Dartmouth because of the size, D-plan, and social options. I lovd Dartmouth's size, intimate enough to feel like a LAC but enough students to support vibrant social options. </p>
<p>Also the D-plan is a big plus in my opinion. Sophomore summer is many students favorite term, its "camp" Dartmouth and you meet most of your class. Also it allows for multiple study abroads, and international grants any term become easy. Also its a big plus for recruiting, special Dartmouth only internships during the school year at elite banks and consulting firms are great "ins" into top firms and the reason why Dartmouth is up there with Yale when it comes to recruiting. Williams is no slouch in the recruiting department either however. </p>
<p>I am sure Williams has some great unique elements that I'm not aware of. These are just some of Dartmouth's. Consider yourself lucky to be able to choose between these two fantastic schools.</p>
<p>I think there are 3 distinguishing factors in the schools.</p>
<p>The first is International Focus:</p>
<p>Dartmouth is so strong in languages, and has a huge percentage of students travel abroad each year. At williams, there is not even a williams requirement, and I always got the feeling that everyone was from a US Prep school, and only cared what happens in the US. Dartmouth has way more public school students, diversity, and focuses on preparing students in becoming citizens of the world.</p>
<p>The second is Technology:</p>
<p>Dartmouth is, and has always been, a leader in technology among the national universities. My computer teachers told me that when they originally had to learn computers back in the '70s, they all went to Dartmouth College to get trained over the summer, and still go back to learn the latest stuff. If you are familiar with the earliest programming language, "Basic", you might not have known that it was originally called "Dartmouth Basic", as it was created by a few Dartmouth professors and students.</p>
<p>In addition to Dartmouth's close involvement in the rise of the personal computer, they really do make sure that the students themselves come out with strong computer skills too. In fact, Dartmouth was the first school in the country to require its students to have a computer. Dartmouth also gave its students use of the first ever e-mail client (BlitzMail). Dartmouth students have been using e-mail for a decade before AOL came out. Later on, Dartmouth became the first school to have a completely wireless internet campus. (You can still plug into an ethernet port in your room if you choose) All of these things along with so much more, is what makes Dartmouth superior to Williams technology-wise. By contrast, Williams never allowed online submission of applications until this year, and still has no way to find your decision or check your status online.</p>
<p>The third reason is Job Placement:</p>
<p>I know that this isn't the MOST important reason (why I put it last), but all else being equal, it is something to consider. If you hope to remain in academia upon graduation, then you can consider Dartmouth and Williams equal. BUT, if you hope to work in the "real" world, then Dartmouth would be the better choice. Dartmouth's alumni connections (as well as alumni giving rates), have been considered the top 2 in the country every year for as long as I can remember. ( I think Notre Dame being the most loyal alums). Dartmouth is ranked number 5 in a list of schools with the most number of alumni as Fortune 500 company CEOs (Higher than Wharton!). The current US Treasury Secretary is a Dartmouth grad. Also, we have alumni as past and present heads of companies such as: eBay, IBM, GE, Goldman Sachs, Hallmark, and NBC.</p>
<p>By contrast, when I have questioned students at Williams which major companies they have high placement rates with, they usually could only say Bear Sterns (ouch). Don't get me wrong, the education qualities at both are excellent (if not the best 2 schools for undergrad in the country), but those who would like to move on to working outside of academia, it is clear that the Dartmouth grads have a significant edge.</p>
<p>I find it very hard to believe that Dartmouth grads have a significant advantage over Williams grads in the realm of job placement. I have no doubt that Dartmouth grads THINK that they have an advantage in terms of job placement. The reality, however, is that opportunities coming from both schools will be fairly equal.</p>
<p>The biggest difference is going to be size</p>
<p>And Williams has a higher alumni giving rate than does Dartmouth</p>
<p>Before deciding to choose Dartmouth over Williams, I asked 3 different corporate recruiters (GS, Lehman, and GE), and they all were shocked, and asked if I was joking. They said hands down Dartmouth. I, of course, did not choose based solely on that though. As for the alumni giving rate, you can't just look at this past year's giving rate. I was saying their alumni are more loyal overall, based on years and years of having a higher giving rate.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Dartmouth's alumni connections (as well as alumni giving rates), have been considered the top 2 in the country every year for as long as I can remember. ( I think Notre Dame being the most loyal alums).
[/quote]
It's true that Dartmouth's alumni giving rate has been consistently ranked at or near the top among national universities, as defined by US News. For example, Dartmouth is #3 in this regard in the 2008 rankings (behind only Princeton and Duke, and ahead of Notre Dame). I don't doubt that Dartmouth has been ranked in the Top 2 in past years.</p>
<p>However...the "national university" rankings don't include liberal arts colleges, because US News ranks the LACs separately. In fact, the top schools in the LAC ranking have traditionally outperformed the top schools in the university ranking, in terms of alumni giving rates. For 2008, for example, Amherst, Williams, Carleton, Middlebury, Bowdoin, and Davidson all had higher alumni giving rates than Dartmouth. That's a typical pattern, not an anomaly.</p>
<p>A few random points of comparison: </p>
<p>Dartmouth/Hanover have a reputation for being small and isolated, relative to peer institutions. Williams/Williamstown are even smaller and more isolated. </p>
<p>Dartmouth has a reputation for undergraduate focus. The undergraduate focus is even stronger at Williams (not many schools cap their [url=<a href="http://www.williams.edu/admin/news/chronicle/%5Dtutorials%5B/url">http://www.williams.edu/admin/news/chronicle/]tutorials[/url</a>] at an enrollment of two). Support for undergraduate education has been a concern lately for some Dartmouth alumni; no one worries about this in the Williams community.</p>
<p>Dartmouth has a strong endowment, but Williams is even wealthier on a per-student basis, especially considering that Williams doesn't try to support professional or graduate students. Dartmouth has fewer $$ and has to spread them more broadly, although this also means that Dartmouth has academic options that Williams lacks (e.g. engineering). </p>
<p>Neither school has the name recognition that they deserve, but Dartmouth's is stronger among the general public. However, the Williams name will be recognized and respected when it matters.</p>
<p>One of the major differences, which no one has yet addressed, is the student social life. Dartmouth, like other Ivies, takes a relatively "hands-off" approach to student organizations, which has led to an active Greek system, senior societies, the Dartmouth Review, etc. Williams, like many LACs, has a more "paternalistic" administration which has strictly banned frats, sororities, secret societies, and most other selective clubs (the Dartmouth administration might like to do this, but can't). Dartmouth seems to have more interesting and diverse student organizations and better parties; Williams is perhaps more inclusive but perhaps also blander in these regards.</p>
<p>You asked corporate recruiters about the differences between the two colleges when you were in high school? That sounds awfully suspicious. </p>
<p>I find it very very hard to believe that Dartmouth is considered a better school by those "in the know." Certainly, the schools are quite similar (with Williams having a small edge) in terms of being admitted into top graduate schools.</p>
<p>Dartmouth and Williams are also quite different as regards intercollegiate sports.</p>
<p>Both schools are known for high rates of student participation in sports (probably higher at Williams, given its smaller size and lower athletic standards). However, Dartmouth athletes compete at the NCAA Division I level, while Williams athletes compete at the lower Division III level.</p>
<p>This means that athletic standards are significantly higher at Dartmouth. Dartmouth recruits talented athletes more aggressively, and can make more concessions to academic qualifications (e.g. subaverage SAT scores) in order to admit them. Williams has lower expectations for athletic talent, and is more likely to fill up teams with walk-ons rather than with recruits. Neither school offers athletic scholarships (Dartmouth theoretically could, as a Division I school, but the Ivies choose not to). </p>
<p>While Dartmouth teams have higher athletic standards, Williams teams are more likely to have winning records. The Ivies (with some exceptions, like the Dartmouth ski team) are not usually very competitive at the Division I level, probably because they forego athletic scholarships. Williams, on the other hand, is very successful at the Division III level. Unfortunately, nobody notices, because Division III sports get far less attention than Division I sports.</p>
<p>Thanks, Corbett. Fact is, the focus on sports and athletics at these two schools is a negative factor for my child, and a nagging source of concern about potential for true friendship, sense of belonging and happiness. He's grown up in a Big 10 college town where the sports teams and coaches get way too much attention and money. He really couldn't care less about sports. That said, he's a wilderness backpacker, so the outing clubs at these places have great appeal/draw.</p>
<p>Dartmouth doesn't feel sports centered at all.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Fact is, the focus on sports and athletics at these two schools is a negative factor for my child, and a nagging source of concern about potential for true friendship, sense of belonging and happiness. He's grown up in a Big 10 college town where the sports teams and coaches get way too much attention and money. He really couldn't care less about sports.
[/quote]
The "sports focus" at schools like Dartmouth or Williams is different from that at a Big 10 school. The high rates of athletic participation and success tend to reflect "individual" sports -- like men's and women's cross country, track, swimming, golf, or skiing -- rather than traditional high-profile "ball" sports. </p>
<p>Think about it -- when you were in high school, which teams tended to have the smartest jocks? For example, football or cross-country? Schools like Williams or Dartmouth have high academic standards, so they are biased towards the sports with smarter jocks.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That said, he's a wilderness backpacker, so the outing clubs at these places have great appeal/draw.
[/quote]
Both schools are located on the Appalachian Trail and are noted for attracting outdoorsy students. Dartmouth is close to the White Mountains, Williams is between the Berkshires and Green Mountains, which are less dramatic but still beautiful.</p>
<p>Wolrab - In my observation sports do not dominate at Dartmouth at even a fraction of the degree of a Bit 10 college (which, from my midwest perspective, is, I agree, intense). Students at both Dartmouth and Williams tend more to participate in a sports activity than to flock as legions of spectators, and much of this a club level. You should read the long discussion thread started by Hawkette lamenting the lack of Vanderbilt/Stanford -like, sports-driven spirit he or she feels ivy schools must suffer for want of. And the answers which testify that Dartmouth has a LOT of spirit that has more to do with cohesiveness of student body, shared experience, tradition, etc. than sports. Varsity sports don't define the experience for the majority of students and even the existence of frats doesn't infringe on the sense of belonging - Frat parties are truly open to the entire campus. But most students are involved in multiple organizations and pursuits and friendships are formed and persist at many levels. </p>
<p>DOC is a very viable organization at Dartmouth - likely your son is well aware of that. DOC freshman trips set the tone of the entire 4 year experience for a vast majority of students and something about that experience and exposure sticks, and remains appealing to many students. Even if some are not otherwise heavily involved in DOC, upperclassmen vie for the opportunity to particpate in the freshman trips for the following classes. Sophomore Summer is a wonderful term to take frequent advantage of outdoor opportunities. And the alternate leave terms honestly do afford students unique opportunities.</p>
<p>Hopefully, your son will visit both schools, stay with students, attend classes, and have a better sense of which best suits. Despite a larger size, I honestly think he will experience an extremely friendly, bright, accomplished and fun-loving student body at Darmouth. </p>
<p>He has some great choices - good luck to him.</p>