<p>Aargh. Just a few short weeks ago DD's for-sure application list was nice and short. She had two Ivies, St. Olaf, and one of the state schools. A couple weeks ago she added Stanford. The list was fine with me-- the Ivies were schools she has consistently been interested in; I think St. Olaf is a great choice; Stanford is on the west coast. (Of course Stanford has more than geography going for it, but geography is one thing that distinguishes it from many other great schools.) </p>
<p>The list was fine, but I would occasionally throw out names of other highly-regarded schools that are less expensive and/or offer merit aid. She hasn't added any of those. Instead, she added another Ivy. On one hand, I'm glad that she is finding schools on her own. On the other hand, I think she is a little dazzled by prestige and she is not being very considerate of our finances. (Our EFC is probably just a little high for her to get any need aid before her sister starts school in two years. We started out saying we'd full way but if the school is expensive, she'd better be able to make the case that it is special. Prestige alone is not special enough-- it has to be special to her. We've modified the bottom line a little, but the principle is the same.)</p>
<p>I just wanted to vent. She has put some thought into her choices; her willingness to do the extra essays is a sign of that.</p>
<p>It sounds as though some discussion of the family financial situation is in order. Your daughter probably doesn't understand your finances anywhere near as well as you do. </p>
<p>I don't quite understand, however, why adding another Ivy (i.e., a school that does not offer merit aid) to the list is a problem. If she were accepted there and decided to attend, why would that be any different from the situation with any of the other Ivies (no-merit-aid schools) on her list?</p>
<p>If you want her to have additional "financial safeties," perhaps it would be a good idea to make that explicit now.</p>
<p>You need to tell her exactly how much you are willing to pay. By saying "she'd better be able to make the case that it is special," you are not saying you couldn't afford it, but saying it just needs your approval. If I were her I would also apply to every school I want to go to then worry about convincing you later. The issue here is your message to her, not her inconsideration for your finance.</p>
<p>Many here are dazzled by prestige, too. I recommend you urge her to attend the best school she can pay for, then add that you'll "chip in" as best you can.</p>
<p>
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"she'd better be able to make the case that it is special,"
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Remember, what is special to the student is what is important. The STUDENT is attending college, not the parent. Agreed....what difference is there from acceptance to one Ivy vs. another? I'm confused by the OP's willingness to seemingly pay for the first two Ivies, but not for this added one. What is the difference? The costs are virtually identical. </p>
<p>I guess the question <em>I</em> have is...what makes those first two Ivies on the list ok to the parents, but not the third? What is "special" to the parents about Ivy 1 and Ivy 2 that is obvious to them...but requires a need to "show" the special nature of Ivy 3?</p>
<p>I was struck by your statement that your daughter is not being considerate of your family finances. It is your duty as a parent to clearly set the parameters in this regard and to be totally honest with her that there will be a limit to what you can and are willing to pay.</p>
<p>She certainly can apply to any college she chooses and wait for the finaid packages which may happily surprise both of you. BUT she must also know that she may have to turn down some acceptances which are financially out of reach. The fact that she has another sister "waiting in the wings" adds to the necessity to inject some tough love into the process. </p>
<p>How unfair it would be for DD1 to attend an unaffordable "elite" while DD@ would be severely limited in her upcoming choices.</p>
<p>If she liked St Olaf, why not Carleton? But I know the feeling. We too said that it was Son's job to work hard and do well, and we'd support any school he managed to get into. I don't think there is a school on his list that even offers merit aid! Of course, the upside is that if our finances completely collapse, all the schools have excellent financial aid policies! And the truth is, our youngest Daughter will probably have a more comprehensive list when her turn comes around in 4 years. We'll have one year when they are both in college at the same time, but after that we might actually be able to save for retirement!</p>
<p>Why would attending Ivy 3 be different from Ivy 1 or Ivy 2? It wouldn't be. Why is applying different/ my attitude toward applying different? A couple reasons (maybe I should say "factors"). I mentioned concern about being dazzled by prestige. And I don't think she needs reach schools when many excellent schools would be matches. Letting go/ loss of influence is another factor. Being enamored of Ivy 1 myself makes it easier for me to feel good about her application to that school. (I recognize that "enamored is a lot like "dazzled.") These don't stand up as reasons not to apply, but they do add up to some frustration for me.</p>
<p>Making the case that it is special-- I recognize that leaves a lot of room for ambiguity and argument, but there is where value comes into play. We can afford to finance an excellent education. I look at anything over the cost of an excellent education (which I would set at OOS tuition at a well-regarded public university; my husband sees value in the schools that offer full rides for NMF) as something of a luxury. When I spend more to buy something that is a luxury, whether for myself or somebody else, I want to know that it is special. </p>
<p>I think kids should have choice. I just don't like it when their choices are different from mine. (Cute emoticon here.) I will continue to try to influence my daughters in a principled and rational way that reflects my values, and then step back. I'm just working through it.</p>
<p>" On the other hand, I think she is a little dazzled by prestige and she is not being very considerate of our finances. (Our EFC is probably just a little high for her to get any need aid before her sister starts school in two years. We started out saying we'd full way but if the school is expensive, she'd better be able to make the case that it is special. Prestige alone is not special enough-- it has to be special to her."</p>
<p>What you've told her is way too vague. Far better to provide a specific figure that you're willing to pay. Let her know that she'd be expected to make up any difference by working and taking out loans. If the college truly is special to her, she'd be willing to do those things. </p>
<p>Virtually anyone can make a case that any school is special to them, which is why what you've told her isn't specific enough. You're setting your family up for a difficult and painful spring plus longtime resentment if she gets into colleges that she'd be delighted to go to, but you wouldn't be willing to pay for.</p>
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<p>I want to know that it is special>></p>
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<br>
<p>Your implication in this statement is that Ivy 3 (the newly added one) does not provide the excellent education for the money as Ivies 1 and 2. I'd love to know which Ivy you think is substandard.</p>
<p>Re: special...my daughter hated a school I loved because of the BUILDINGS. She didn't even apply there. My son didn't accept enrollment at a school both Dh and I liked because DS didn't "like" it as well (no real "good" reason...he just didn't like it as well).</p>
<p>These are 18 year olds. Their reasons and yours may be a bit different...and that is something it may be hard to understand, but worth trying to understand. I should add....both of my kids made excellent college choices in the end. And in neither case, was their choice MY first choice.</p>
<p>i hate to say this, but i think you are sending a mixed message. on the one hand you say
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she'd better be able to make the case that it is special.
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and on the other hand you say
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she is a little dazzled by prestige
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and that she is
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not being very considerate of our finances
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</p>
<p>well, if you said you'll pay if she shows a school is special, and she is attracted to the prestigious schools, why in the world would it occur to her that she is not being considerate of your finances? it seems to me that she is trying to meet the standards you articulated -- looking for truly "special" schools, which in MANY people's minds equates with the ivies or comparable schools.</p>
<p>you say prestige "alone" isn't special enough. but is prestige necessary for your definition of special? ie, you may say it's not sufficient, but you may be implying to her that it is necessary, whether you intend to or not. </p>
<p>i think you really need to articulate the financial parameters to your d more clearly. and you need to be a lot clearer than "special" to describe what you are willing to pay for. the first step in that is for you to figure out for yourself what you really mean and how much choice you are willing to respect.</p>
<p>I do not think adding more schools at the top of a list is necessarily problematic ... as long as there are 2-3 solid matches ... and she has the time to do a quality job on the applications. Personally, given the low odds of acceptance at the top tier schools, I think only aplying to 2-3 of them is a strategy that gives a student very little chance of attending a top tier school.</p>
<p>Focussing on top tier schools is not necessarily focussed on prestige either. When I toured schools this spring with my oldest one of her comments after visting our OK State U was "I do not want to go to school where I am one of the smartest kids in my classes ... I want to go where I am an average kid in the class". I did not hear that as seeking prestige ... and also view it as a very valid desire for a learning environment.</p>
<p>Lastly, and most importantly. We also told our kids we will pay full fare to schools as long as they make a case of why we should pay for the increment over our local State U (where they will likely have free tuition due to test score/GPA performance). However, the big difference is that the it's our child's definition of the quality of the experience not ours. For example, I LOVED going to college in a terrific college town while my oldest totally focused on urban campuses ... it's her college experience and her choice about the college location. What we might balk at is a school of lesser academic quality than our State U, in a similar environment, with no special feature that sets it apart from our State U. If our kids get into a top tier school, a school with a special program, get a chance to continue to play a sport, etc ... we will pay the increment based on what our kids value in their college education.</p>
<p>I was typing as many of you were responding. I tried to edit but took too long.
Younghoss, Thumper-- You were right. I am dazzled.<br>
Specialness-- We shifted from pay for it all to all up to $x, then shared above $x. So, she doesn't really have to show specialness even though I keep harping on it. She does have to consider value and have some buy-in. That makes it more about what she values than what I value.
Orignaloog-- DD2 will not suffer. Her list will look a lot different because she has a fairly specialized interest and some fairly specific things she would like to have available. I think the key with her will be to get her to consider whether the school is a good fit apart from offering the specialized program.
Modadunn-- St. Olaf is a better fit. She at least briefly considered Carleton. We even made it to the admissions office after her St. Olaf visit, but didn't stay for the tour because we wanted to get to the airport before freezing rain arrived. The funny thing is a favorable impression of a Carleton math professor that used to be at St. Olaf is one of the things that got her interested in St. Olaf.</p>
<p>It's hard to give a specific amount upfront about 'what we will pay for' when the financial packages haven't all come in yet. In our situation, it's more like 'how much more would we pay' for a school she really likes over another.</p>
<p>I told D2 (HS class of '09) way back when that Ivies and those $45K+/yr schools were probably out of the question financially, and that was OK with her. Now the acceptances and scholarships are trickling in, and while a final decision probably won't be made until mid-March (when a couple schools announce their big scholarships), it may play out that her #1 choice is a no-scholarship acceptance that ends up being 10-20K/year more than the others, in the low thirties--not in the Ivy strata, but pricey nonetheless. BTW, D1 cost us in the high twenties per year.</p>
<p>Could be an interesting 'sit-down' with D2 when it's time to choose. At least she's a smart kid and understands the situation at hand.</p>
<p>I agree with your (her) sentiments about St Olaf. Great school! And it attracts lots of math majors. My d loves it as well, but didn't apply because it is too close to home. </p>
<p>Problem is - and we're experiencing this as well - while it is easy to know about the St Olaf-like gems in your own area, it's not easy to learn about them when you are considering schools in other states. That is our problem. The schools she hears about are the big name, elite schools.</p>
<p>Hi mom58
My son too added Stanford at the very last minute to make 3 top choice schools. For him however, it is because he has always wanted to go there, though he feels he would never get in. He has spent summers there and was taught by Stanford students who he really identified with. He has a "feel" for the place. </p>
<p>Yet IMO he would be a far better match at MIT (where he had always wanted to go until he spent the summer at Stanford) or Caltech. I had discouraged him from applying to Stanford and at the last minute <em>I</em> relented, thinking he will always wonder if he could have gotten in. So I said hey you might as well apply if you are willing to write the essays. </p>
<p>Now I think some of Stanford's appeal to my son IS the the prestige its name has, but it would be hard to argue that this prestige is unearned, so...</p>
<p>I think if your daughter gets in to Stanford, it should be high on your to-do list to visit there (when school is in session) That is our plan if S gets in. He saw it in the summer, while, although it was crowded, the programs he attended were close knit. I think the feel will be very different during the school year. Stanford is HUGE, and the grad students FAR outnumber the undergrads. I don't place a value judgement on that, it will just have a very different feel than a small LAC like St Olaf.</p>
<p>Then you should visit a couple more on her top choice list (sounds like this has already been acheived), and hopefully the one that "fits" her will also offer some aid. But just in case I would have her be looking into outside scholarship and loan options. The fact that she may end up being partially financially responsible for her own education may have her seeing a different school as a better fit for her.
Good luck. No matter where she decides to go, this is an exciting time in her (and your) life.</p>
<p>Op- I think you're being unfair to your D. It's not her job to be considerate of your finances.... its her job to find and get admitted to a school that meets her needs given the financial limitations set for her (and with her...).</p>
<p>So I think you get to have a conversation like the following: Hey honey, we've recalculated the college fund based on the recent market meltdowns, and here is the reality: We can pay for one year of a private U out of your college fund; as a family, we can come up with another 10K a year out of our other savings and/or income. We are not likely to qualify for much need based aid. So we need to figure out how much you can earn during the year and summers to supplement what we have; we need to figure out if there are merit aid schools where you are likely to qualify for enough aid to make them affordable, figure out which of our state U's would fit your criteria, figure out how much you can take on in loans to bridge the gap, etc.</p>
<p>What you don't get to say is that you will magically come up with the money (from where? you either have it or you don't) if she gets into a school on the approved "special and wonderful" list, but you won't come up with the money if you determine it's neither special nor wonderful. It is absolutely your prerogative to spend your money as you see fit, but it's unfair not to have laid out the reality early enough in the process (and sorry, day after Xmas isn't early enough for her to explore a range of options) for her to be part of the solution vs. part of the problem.</p>
<p>It's hard to believe that Dartmouth is special and wonderful but Cornell is not (just to pick a pair that is quite similar for the sake of argument). Similarly, it is hard to believe that your D isn't smart enough to have identified a range of schools which have a much lower ticket price if she had been alerted early on that your financial constraints were real and serious.</p>
<p>She's gotten the message that you will be capricious and arbitrary in deciding how much you can afford for college... and so she's being capricious and arbitrary in her selection strategy. Sounds very wise to me- sharp kid, your D.</p>
<p>Make sure your d knows exactly how much you are willing to pay for her education and that any incremental will be paid by her. My kids know what our budget is. They can apply to whichever schools they wish and try for merit/financial aid. Based upon the net cost after aid, they can decide if they wish to take out loans in their names for that school. While latest son got great offers from some prestigious privates(up to half off, but still 24K), he decided to attend state U, which is known for his major. He decided to save his loans for grad school.</p>
<p>Funny how when it is THEIR money, they are much more careful with their decision.....</p>