I will note from my perspective that drawing the South line between William & Mary and Wake Forest is a non-obvious choice.
In any event, I think I have still not seen an assessment on Rochester, which I think is very much not in the South. Rochester does have “brand” value, it is in a city but its main campus is sort of set apart (so more like Brown than Yale, say), and it very much fits the “mid size research university that has the feel of liberal arts” model.
Just wanted to throw out that I never thought my daughter would really consider Pitt based on the location. We absolutely LOVED the campus. Yes there are tall building and busy streets in some areas, but so much green space on campus, huge park, beautiful Conservatory. It was not at all what we presumed. CMU literally butts right up to Pitt and is equally beautiful, although maybe less green space. All to say, its worth perusing at least some online videos to get a “feel.”
I wouldn’t say suburban per se, but I wouldn’t say Yale or Brown are suburban either. Although right next to each other, the Pitt campus is definitely a little more integrated into the Oakland “central business district”, and CMU is on the other side of a gorge (“Junction Hollow”) with a more separated, cohesive campus.
In that sense I would say CMU might actually feel enough different from Pitt to be a contender. Again I wouldn’t be saying this if you had ruled out Yale or Brown, but if she like those schools, I think CMU might well work.
By the way, this is Pittsburgh in a nutshell. It has a very unusual topography for a major US city, and so it is broken up into all these distinct microneighborhoods, with some sort of topographic barrier (cliff, gorge, river, etc.) in between. None of which shows up clearly on a typical 2D map, although if you turn on a terrain layer, suddenly a lot of things become a lot more obvious.
So anyway, that is why Pitt and CMU can be adjacent on a 2D map, and yet be on opposite sides of a gorge, and that can make a real difference.
Yale, Brown, and CMU however will have very different vibes.
Pittsburgh basically specializes these days in shocking visitors who are expecting steel mills, and instead they find all these incredible green spaces and historic architecture and such. The Cathedral of Learning is one of my favorite academic buildings anywhere, and that part of Oakland was designed in general as a “civic center” with pretty great overall success.
Anyway, I don’t know if the OP has actually visited Pittsburgh, but if not, I would definitely consider a visit to both Pitt and CMU. Again, they are adjacent but different, and both definitely have their appeal.
My classic “colleges for kids who love Brown”-
Tufts
Skidmore
Conn College
Wellesley
Vassar
Barnard
Muhlenberg
Sarah Lawrence
Wesleyan
Rice
U Vermont
Obviously, covering off different things for different kids, based on what it is that they love. And a wide swing in admissions selectivity.
My list for kids who love Yale (a couple of the above, plus:
U Chicago
Hopkins
Pitt
Swarthmore
Haverford
McGill
I have left off the women’s college out of respect for the OP’s D wishes- but kept on Wellesley because it punches above its weight in virtually all the “high powered recruiting” including consulting and I-banking.
The kids I know recently at Lehigh and Bucknell have leaned preppy/pre-professional (I’d call them “future finance bros” in a professional context) so that’s something to be aware of. Definitely a different social scene than Brown.
Yes, CMU is very much on a different branch of the college family tree.
I’d actually suggest in some notable ways, Pitt seems to me like it might be a better fit. It has a somewhat similar history to William & Mary and the University of Virginia in that it predates land grant universities, and only became “state-related” in 1966. I do think that relationship transformed Pitt more than, say William & Mary, but I also think it still remains a bit of a hybrid between the private research university form, and the typical flagship public university form.
Indeed, size-wise, and in terms of balance of undergrad/grad, it is a reasonably close match to UVA–UVA has around 17000 undergrad, 8000 grad, and Pitt is about 19000 undergrad, 9000 grad. Very different from, say, Penn State, which is more like 40000 undergrad (main campus), 6000 grad.
Anyway, not to put on the hard sell for Pitt, but it has become a very popular “likely” choice in our circles for the sorts of applicants who might have a Yale or Brown as a favorite reach, and schools like William & Mary or UVA as a favorite target.
Finance Bro is the one concern with the Lehigh Valley schools but they appear to punch above their weight similar to Wellesley. Daughter’s school is a feeder to UChicago sending 3-5 girls out of 90 per year for last several years but word is the admission director who loves the school is retiring and my daughter has no interest. Pitt seems to be the hot school because of rolling but the campus is too urban like NYU, GW or BU. McGill is one that we might need to take a look at and the international aspect could be a plus.
I am secretly hoping that a trip to a BC football game in the fall will push her hard in that direction but RD there is very hard.
I have been pushing for Pitt as a rolling app. I think we need to hop in the car and check them out. Weve only been to Pittsburgh once and I found it quite charming.
We are comfortable enough with Va as a southern states because of the proximity and familiarity. Charlottesville is a quaint town and Williamsburg is what it is but my MIL lives 20 minutes away in Hampton Roads. I cant say that Winston Salem is an ideal spot for someone like my daughter. The real draw to W&M is the dual degree program with St Andrews. St Andrews was actually a school for consideration until we heard about housing difficulties for US students. W&M dual degree students are guaranteed housing for the time that they are there.
There are a lot of schools which punch above their weight for “elite” type hiring, or whatever that’s a proxy for, that are NOT bro-like. So if that’s a goal-- again, Tufts, Swarthmore, Brandeis, Holy Cross (a very underrated intellectual place IMHO) and back to McGill/Chicago.
Trust me- the “bro” environment is going to be a LOT more influential in your D’s overall college experience than whether the campus abuts, is adjacent to, is far from an urban environment. And for the very, very minimal odds of getting a McKinsey offer from Lehigh vs. Swarthmore… nah, not worth it! The everyday environment, how influential the drinking culture is, how many social and cultural opportunities there are, involvement in the community- these are a much more potent predictor of how much a kid loves their college than the machinations four years down the road of “how hard is it to submit my resume for a resume drop if I’m not at a core school?” (not hard). Most HS kids don’t know what consultants do all day, and once they realize that the second cut in recruiting is all about quant and analytical skills (numbers, so many numbers!) that’s it for consulting!
Interesting @NiceUnparticularMan that UVA is considered a target in your circles. OOS acceptance rate for 2027 was 12.1%. William and Mary’s 2026 OOS acceptance rate was 28%.
Good luck to your daughter, @GirlDad . UVA and William & Mary are both great schools, with very nice grounds/campuses.
Yes, that is per the Kickstart program our HS uses. But our counselor also thinks despite what Kickstart said, William and Mary is a better bet than UVA, even if Kickstart called them both Targets.
That is not dissimilar to us, but I think UVA is closer to a hard target/low reach and even so only for ED.
Yeah, my S24 is probably not going to apply to UVA because he didn’t like it nearly as much as William & Mary, and my point to him was UVA is really too hard of a school to get into OOS to bother applying unless he had it as a top few choice. My feeling is it is usually best to leave such colleges to the people who see them as among their top few favorites, and can write honest applications reflecting that enthusiasm. And he can be doing the same at the colleges he really likes.
But of course the OP’s daughter might feel differently. And for the reasons previously stated, if she really liked UVA but wanted a somewhat less selective alternative similar to UVA, then Pitt is definitely worth serious consideration.
I went to Pitt, a son went to UVA. Both great but very different. Husband went to CMU, which has been mentioned. That is even more different and fit seems very important there. And UVA and William & Mary are also very different. Lots of kids prefer one over the other. Good luck!
I was just there last month and second this. It’s a nice part of town and the CMU/Pitt campus is pretty, well laid-out and not too busy. If the OP likes Evanston, CMU/Pitt campus has a similar feel.
I’ve been to all four campuses and GW might be the nearest comparison. However, Pittsburgh is not as busy as DC and my impression is that Pitt campus is more spread out and greener than GW.
If she’s interested in the UK and PPE, how about Oxford? Your D’s ACT score would make her competitive, although as an American applicant the lack of AP scores might make it a bit challenging. The campus is stunning and, academic intensity notwithstanding (although PPE is reputed to be less intense), my impression is that it’s a magnificent place to spend 3-4 years.
@LostInTheShuffle Oxford PPE is the ultimate and D was interested a couple of years ago and started to self study for APs since the school doesn’t offer APs and isn’t IB. That proved to be too much extra work. St. Andrews/W&M joint degree could be a great compromise and I think it is tough for sheltered US kid to go off to another country for 4 years of college, no matter how great the school and opportunity are.
I was able to have a nice strategy call with my D24’s SC and she gave me some very interesting tid bits that I found very helpful. She let us know that increased rigor and increased grades every year is a huge plus in the application and that she is going to highlight that in the application. She also mentioned that the school is rated/viewed by most “top schools” as a tier 1 school and the rigor is automatically noted. She also mentioned that a full load of advanced classes and a great start to sr year is paramount which is great news in our situation. All of this was a huge relief and very informative. Communication with counselors early and often is so crucial.