<p>similar ideas iterated in recent time cover Time Mag about Healthcare. CEO heads of non-profit hospitals making multi-millions. Not condoning or condemning since this may contribute to the good care at some of these places. Just find it an interesting paradox and similar to what goes on with Universities.</p>
<p>Yes and Yes.Healthcare…let’s not start this topic because it makes me even more upset.</p>
<p>Just get hella scholarships or work for a while.</p>
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<p>It isn’t just the 17 year olds who choose their schools this way. So do the vast majority of their parents. (“We went there and didn’t even get out of the car as it looked like a dump.” “The dorms were so old, the classrooms so stuffy…” “We went into admissions and they practically rolled out the red carpet for us.”) These are all statements I’ve heard from parents.)</p>
<p>I agree about the overuse of the word ‘scam’. In the context of college, a ‘scam’ would be someplace that hands out diplomas to someone never even went there. YOU determine the cost of your college education based on what college you attend. When you graduate, the cost of tuition results in a diploma in whatever area of study YOU chose. If you choose to attend a very expensive college pursuing a degree in a field that offers few job opportunities, you will be in debt…I don’t call that a scam, more like poor planning on the part of the student who chose that path.</p>
<p>Creekland: I hear you, but I wonder if some of that is a function of how much money the students will be paying. If there were a private college that charged a maximum of $20,000 per year, had classes taught by professors, kept the class size down, and had a strong alumni network, would you really not even look at the place because its dorm rooms were small? Or would you think, “Savings plus a job over the school year for my kid, plus a few small loans - hey, who cares how small the dorm rooms are?”</p>
<p>I think that the whole thing is an arms race, but it’s also a very vicious cycle. A college that charges $60,000 a year in sticker price ought to feel like a quarter-million-dollar experience, even if many students pay far less than that. Thus, serviceable dorms get renovated, serviceable athletic facilities get overhauled, okay dining facilities get a facelift, etc.</p>
<p>By analogy, if all hotels charged Four Seasons prices (but gave discounts to some people), all travellers would expect a Four Seasons level of poshness.</p>
<p>It seems like a new student Bill of Rights needs to be established that includes a warning label for students and their parents:</p>
<ul>
<li>all degrees are not worth the same investment so be careful with how much you pay for a degree</li>
<li>all universities are not worth the same investment so be careful what you pay to a school</li>
<li>the money you invest may be at risk due to limited refunds and no tuition insurance</li>
<li>the greatest risk to your investment is your inability to complete a degree program - if you start / finish or face harsh consequences that the education may not increase your capacity to recoup the cost of the education</li>
</ul>
<p>Other ideas?</p>
<p>Sorry, I don’t buy it, not even the claim that some degrees are not marketable.</p>
<p>Take a Philosophy degree. Now, that doesn’t sound marketable, eh?</p>
<p>Except that Philosophy majors get the top LSAT scores and there are numerous CEOs with Philosophy BAs, because only certain kinds of people want to study Philosophy and they tend to be creative, independent and analytical – and excellent communicators.</p>
<p>Besides which, there’s nothing to stop a student from adding real world experience to a degree that doesn’t seem to have those connections. A dear friend’s daughter got her Philosophy degree but was also interested in environmental issues. She did internships during college and studied GIS (geographic information systems) and got a job right out of college.</p>
<p>ALF hit it right. Anyway, what is the alternative? Spend your $ wisely but your child, more times than not, need a strong, marketable undergrad education to get the most out of future employment opportunities. Going local (if the school is decent and most State flagships are), living at home (I did), choosing an education that will have opportunity (while I truly understand momfromme’s point about majors such as Philosophy) are wise approaches.</p>
<p>“Sorry, I don’t buy it, not even the claim that some degrees are not marketable.”</p>
<p>I don’t think that the issue here is whether or not some degrees are not marketable. The issue is whether or not higher ed institutions are guilty of ‘scamming’ by offering such degrees. Having noted that, however, it should be obvious that in general certain majors are less marketable than others. If a student (and his/her parents) decide to go deeply into debt pursuing a less-marketable degree, that is certainly their choice, and they may very well end up in a good job. But those students and parents should not then turn around and claim that they were somehow deceived.</p>
<p>There are other similar threads on CC about how law schools are ‘scamming’ students into getting law degrees, when in fact the job prospects for newly-minted lawyers is abysmal right now. Does anyone really enter a law school these days without being aware of the ‘lawyer glut’ problem?</p>
<p>Does anyone really enter a law school these days without being aware of the ‘lawyer glut’ problem? </p>
<p>I’ve been around CC long enough to know that this community is by and large pretty “in-the-know” about the state of the job market, at least in the major urban areas on the coasts (and in many metro areas in between). I live in a less sophisticated part of NYS, however, and I can tell you that the vast majority of my neighbors would love to see their kids go into law. I’ve heard the same in middle class communities elsewhere throughout upstate NY. So, yeah, I think there are a hell of a lot of people unaware of the “lawyer glut.” There remain plenty of pigeons out there.</p>
<p>Some people are dedicated, capable and intelligent enough to get into top universities in order to get their first bachelor degree, but most of these people are kids who have been raised with the implanted notion that in order to be successful in life, they have to go to Harvard or UC Berkeley or whatever other private universities are out there. Because of this, and the fact that most do not have a firm grasp on money, they go out blindly and fall victim to the college industry complex. It is really sad seeing these brilliant minds with idealistic concepts falling into debt because 1) They do not want, or cannot work due to lack of skill, complex schedules, laziness, etc. </p>
<p>What we need is good old fashion knowledge. Do you really need to spend 50k a year over a four year degree? Maybe for graduate studies of course, but come on, stay in state, attend a state school or community college (but of course do research on whether transfer credits are applicable to not) and learn a skill. That is probably the most important thing out there. I am sorry to say, but most companies treat people as pieces of meat. Deal with it. Make yourself attractive to the job market. A degree is part of it, work experience like internships makes you much more attractive than a person with just a degree.</p>
<p>So which degrees are worth it? I’ve seen other threads where people say that engineering is a scam. There are too many biology majors? Studying the humanities? You’ll eat ramen forever. What degree is worth $35000+ a year?<br>
PS- I have a lawyer friend who went to UCB and she would tell you that paying for prestige is worth every penny, and that if she could do it over she would have gone to an ivy instead of staying in state.</p>
<p>A lot of students don’t want to attend a community college for two years. This would drastically cut down on the cost. People need to be realistic and do a cost-benefit analysis. Is 40,000 dollars of debt worth a degree in Art History or Philosophy? People have this distortion of prestige = wealth. The individual has more say over his path in life than which school he goes too. People also need a realistic idea of how marketable a degree is. Not all STEM degrees are the same. Electrical Engineering or CS is much more employable than a Physics or Biology degree. The mantra of major in something you’re interesting in is flawed and dated. Major in something you enjoy but have a chance of a RIO. </p>
<p>Another problem with the cost of tuition is government involvement in the student loan process. If you increase the money supply in a particular market, prices will artificially increase. We seen this happen in the mortgage bubble. Banks lent money to unqualified borrowers and this increase in supply of capital lead to an artificial price increase in housing.</p>
<p>Another aspect people do not like to consider is military service. I’m going to graduate with an EE degree in 2 years with about 10k in debt.</p>
<p>Again, it’s not a scam to get certain degrees.</p>
<p>People can do fine with ANY degree and they don’t have to incur a lot of debt. But of course, it depends.</p>
<p>My friend’s daughter with the Philosophy degree and internships in environmental groups? She had less than $10,000 in debt after graduating from a very strong LAC which has great aid.Most of it was need-based but $5,000 a year was because she was a NMS.</p>
<p>She didn’t go to a school with crappy aid and she had a good list and credentials. It wouldn’t have been a scam for her to rack up a lot of debt and end up with no marketable skills; it would have been the outcome of HER choices.</p>
<p>Why blame the colleges and universities?</p>
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<p>Seriously? There are still people out there that believe that tenured professors live lavish lifestyles as “divas”?</p>
<p>I have to laugh every time I read one of these articles that “partially” blames academic “divas” brought in to attract students for the rise in costs. Even at the top universities, full professors make on average a bit under $200,000 a year - upper-middle class but hardly rock-star salaries. They also work, on average, about 60-80 hours a week. And their salary is 1) only at the top research universities and 2) typically after about 15 years in an industry where they had to study for 6-10 years or more in order to attain that job. They make less than the average beginning primary care practitioner. And honestly, many academic “divas” are recruited because they bring in million-dollar research grants to the university. At my school within a university, a large percentage of the researchers’ salaries come out of their own grants.</p>
<p>At smaller schools and less flush ones, full professors may not even crack six figures even after 20 years in the biz. The ones who are really wealthy are usually so because they pay themselves out of research grants and speaking engagements, or because they have administrative positions on top of their academic ones.</p>
<p>This whole situation is very sad. While schools may attempt to appeal to incoming students’ interests (a beautiful gym, great dorms, etc.), it is up to parents to instill the values, priorities and goals to put it all in perspective. </p>
<p>When parents are turned off because a student tour guide is not fluent in every aspect of the school, when the dining hall food is not fabulous, when the “study abroad” program is not extensive, you’ve got a situation where adolescents are given the message that these extras are priorities.</p>
<p>Parents need to convey their values from the start. If they are willing to pay $60,000 a year out of pocket, if they encourage their kids to take out huge loans, if they don’t let their kids know that they EXPECT them to support themselves after college, they are setting them up for a range of future problems. End of rant.</p>
<p>I agree with maggiedog. I guess what we are missing here is a sense of perspective of what do look in a school. I do not think professors live as divas. Actually I know many of them and some can barely pay their own debts.</p>
<p>“PS- I have a lawyer friend who went to UCB and she would tell you that paying for prestige is worth every penny, and that if she could do it over she would have gone to an ivy instead of staying in state.”</p>
<p>Prestige is extremely valuable in law for your first job as an attorney.</p>
<p>In law school, I laughed at the ivy league students because their education actually cost money (as opposed to my free state school) and we ended up at the same place.</p>
<p>I had no interest in going to an Ivy League school for undergrad, since that would have just resulted in me being in debt about $100,000.</p>
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<p>I agree. Even after about 7-8 years of being a tenured professor, my dad made less than my mom once she got her first job after graduating from a for-profit university similar to DeVry. Most professors are not making very much.</p>