<p>What are your takes on this article? (both prospective/current/graduate law students)</p>
<p><a href="AbovetheLaw">url=http://abovethelaw.com/2010/01/debt<em>the</em>silent_killer.php</a> "I graduated law school in 2003, owing Harvard University just under $150,000. At the time, I had no idea what starting my professional career $150K in the hole would do to my life..."</p>
<p>It’s nothing new, in my opinion; it’s only gathering attention because of the economy: Since there are fewer private sector jobs, law students must look at other options that pay significantly less. My only hope is that the complete outnumbering of law students to law jobs imposes more discipline on the ABA in accrediting law schools.</p>
<p>Moreover, as a student who is not even close to law school, but reading articles on the law, you should use this article as motivation for thinking whether law school is the right path for you.</p>
<p>The second part of her article does not match her argument at the beginning of the article…she is using her experience of law school debt to advise people that they might not find work right away & yet her experience was completely self inflicted because she did have a job at a big law firm and chose to quit because she didn’t “enjoy” her job. I would have felt bad for her if she went through school, accumulated a huge debt & then could not find a job, but for her to just quit because she didn’t like her job is ridiculous. She needed to take care of the debt first and then find more enjoyable employment when it was paid off. She made that decision and has to live with the consequences. What a waste of an excellent education and a well paying job, just to find that she hasn’t “grown up” and taken care of business in the real world.</p>
<p>a) Elie is male.
b) I’m not sure whether he really “quit.” Most people with that kind of debt don’t voluntarily leave firms until they’ve made a significant dent in it, at least firms like the one Elie worked at (Debevoise & Plimpton).</p>
<p>a.) my mistake, sorry about that
b.) he did quit… here is the direct quote from the article: “I quit my Biglaw job because, despite the debt, I really wanted to have a job that I enjoyed.”</p>
<p>If you don’t want to work Big Law, most decent schools have LRAP programs that allow you to do basically any sort of public interest work you want and they’ll get rid of your debt.</p>
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<p>Yes, I can read the article. I was questioning the truth of that statement.</p>
<p>I think the amount of debt is getting to my kid too and that may be a factor in my kid’s decision on what law school to attend. She is probably not going the big law route (though she said she might have to if she finds herself $150,000 in debt).</p>
<p>but what I’m also finding troubling when reading TLS, is that kids seem to be really over anxious about grades. I guess as a T-14 background no longer guarantees a job with high salary, these kids who will be deeply in debt find themselves in fierce competition with their classmates in order to get the jobs that are still available. It’s just not a pretty picture out there.</p>
<p>A year or two ago, I may have suggested to my kid to go to a T-14 no matter what. But I am giving more consideration to the idea of “take the money and run”. Good or bad- my kid has both these type of offers, and I think her final decision will be tougher choice than we expected. </p>
<p>I’m getting the impression that the BigLaw environment is not for everyone- but for those facing alot of debt, it really may be necessary to work in that environment for a few years, get rid of the debt and then try to find the lifestyle that works best for you.</p>
<p>Certain choices that were “no brainers” a few years ago are no longer clear: If a student had a full ride at Georgetown, but got into Columbia with no money, the student should choose Columbia (as of a few years go). Now with the risk of not getting biglaw, it might be wiser in this economy to take on less debt, yet still attend a prestigious institution. </p>
<p>Two years ago, I turned down a top 3 school for a full ride at a lower ranked school. My friends, at the time, thought I was crazy. Today, they see that my decision made sense. Granted, my decision at the time wasn’t based on my predictions of the future; I have just always been debt-averse.</p>
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<p>This is simply not true. For the most part, only top law schools have loan forgiveness programs for those who, typically, work at public interest jobs (which is defined quite narrowly in most cases), though in one or two cases, the loan forgiveness programs cover those who work at any low paying job. These programs do not cover those who simply cannot find jobs at all. There are many strings attached to these programs, including the fact that any spousal income will be included in calculating eligibility and dictating the number of years that one must hold their public interest job in order to avoid incurring a repayment obligation (thus, reducing the flexibility to leave a job that one may not “enjoy”).</p>
<p>There is also no guarantee that one can find a public interest job. Despite the relatively lower pay, these jobs are most often quite competitive and choice positions in locations of one’s own choosing can be difficult to obtain. Public interest employers often have limited resources to pay and train new layers, and, therefore, are limited in the number of newly minted attorneys they can hire.</p>
<p>flowerhead- You’re a lucky guy. Taking a full ride at a T-6 school always made sense to me regardless of how the economy was doing.
A full ride at a decent law school is a very difficult opportunity to pass up in this economy. Especially if there is no desire to go the biglaw route.</p>
<p>One more thought on student loan indebtedness – it can have a negative effect on your life for many, many years. </p>
<p>It can take 10-20 years to pay off your law school student loans. Think for a minute about how old you will be 10 years after you graduate from law school and how you hope your life will be at that point in time. Think now about how that might change if you are still making monthly payments of $1,000 - $1,500 per month (on an after-tax basis) on your student loans. Think about how it will feel to work 70-80 hours per week (at a minimum) at a Biglaw firm if you don’t have two pennies to rub together after paying taxes (surprisingly huge amounts of money to most new lawyers – welcome to life in the high tax brackets), rent, utilities and student loans, among other things. </p>
<p>You may not be able to obtain credit to buy a home or car given your level of indebtedness, you may have to wait to get married until you pay down your loans, you may have to work so many unpredictable hours at Biglaw that you don’t have much opportunity to see friends, date or otherwise take advantage of the things that the city or town where you live has to offer (regardless of whether you “enjoy” the work – in my opinion, it would be very irresponsible to leave a high-paying job if you have tremendous student loans just to find a job that might make you happy) and you may have to miss out on vacations and/or events (weddings, reunions, birthdays, etc.) with family or friends either because you cannot afford to go after making your student loan payments or cannot get out of work to go.</p>
<p>I have lived the life of putting myself through college and law school and paying down student loans, and I know from experience how difficult it is. </p>
<p>If you are considering law school, please be sure that you want to be an attorney, that you are willing to suck it up and stay in a job that you may not like and may even despise just so that you can pay the bills and that you are planning to go to a law school that will enable you to obtain a job that will allow you to make ends meet.</p>
<p>Sally: Is it not possible, if one is disciplined about one’s consumption, to pay off their loans more aggressively? I mean… what if a graduate really sucks it up and eats ramen noodles, has a roommate, and bargain hunts for work clothes? A lot of my friends complain about their debt, and then they go on to mention these extravagant things they plan to do as big firm attorneys… it makes me think that they’re trying to have things both ways, which I don’t think is a wise or mature thing to do.</p>
<p>flowerhead- working 70 to 80+ hours a week, going home to eat Ramen noodles and not having the time or money to take a one week vacation or still having to live with a roommate or live in a cramped studio apartment? And then still have to pay this enormous debt down?<br>
–doesn’t exactly sound like the type of lifestyle my kid is looking forward to. </p>
<p>Sally is making good points (depressing- but realistic).<br>
Be thankful you were wise enough to take the full ride at your school.</p>
<p>I also agree that public interest/government jobs (like DA’s office) are harder to get. There are budget cuts everywhere. Many government agencies have a hiring freeze- and opportunities with non-profits are drying up due to decrease in funding. So I wouldn’t put too much faith in the current LRAP programs, as they too can become worthless.</p>
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<p>Regarding time management, here is a useful article from YLS (probably one of the most amazingly useful articles I’ve read on law firm life):
<a href=“http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/CDO_Public/cdo-billable_hour.pdf[/url]”>http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/CDO_Public/cdo-billable_hour.pdf</a></p>
<p>I haven’t reread the article, but from what I remember, a week’s vacation is possible while billing insane hours.</p>
<p>But overall, yes, that quality of life is not what most prospective law students expect. However, that’s part of the problem with incoming law students: Most simply don’t understand the financial sacrifice they’re making, and how long it’ll take to pay their debt. I’m sorry if your daughter is expecting a better lifestyle, but unless she can nab a great scholarship at a great school, she’ll be looking at the ramen noodle lifestyle for a long time.</p>
<p>Of course, it’s possible to have the “models and bottles” lifestyle while under that kind of debt, and while working in biglaw. But, first, I don’t think one would last long in biglaw with that lifestyle; second, it’s really not the most appropriate lifestyle if one wants to pay off debt, build credit, save for a downpayment on real estate, and otherwise to build one’s savings in order to account for children, etc. </p>
<p>People these days really underestimate the importance of saving and building good credit. I’m not saying that you’re daughter does this, but I am saying that any law student has to think realistically about these things.</p>
<p>nah- my kid is very aware of the importance of savings and not living beyond her means. That is why the thought of law school debt is extremely troubling to her. I think it is because of her economic sensibilities, she is taking many factors into consideration when choosing a law school. And I don’t care how frugal you are-- $150,000 is a lot of debt and will affect your life for many years.</p>
<p>friends kid took a full ride to WUSTL 2 years ago. I didn’t know if it was a wise choice. But in retrospect, I don’t think it was a bad idea. She hasn’t graduated yet, so I don’t know if her JD will play well in NYC- but her “sacrifice” is being debt free and looking for a job in the chicago or mid-west area. </p>
<p>Having a debt free life style in the midwest (or elsewhere) vs. 80 hour work week- ramen noodles-and no time for social life is a decision many young law students may have to make- especially those who are fortunate enough to be offered a full ride or substantial scholarship at a less prestigious school.</p>
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<p>I strongly doubt that lawyers in big Chicago firms work less than lawyers in big New York firms. Of course, with respect to other midwest markets, that might be the case.</p>
<p>my point is - she is debt free and may not feel compelled to go the biglaw route and have an 80 hour work week. She’ll have more flexibility in finding a job that meets her personal needs- be it in gov’t, non profit etc. And even if she works the 80 hour week and makes the big bucks- at least she’ll be able to afford a great apartment and have nice dinners. She won’t need to pay back any loans.
Of course gov’t/non profit jobs are hard to come by- but she may not feel the same panic in looking for work, as she is debt free. I think there is more panic for those going the biglaw route because many kids are so much in debt.
At the same time it certainly makes no sense to me to pay full price and not go to a top school. </p>
<p>again- i am also sensing “panic” on TLS. Kids are extremely worried about grades and getting jobs. Read some threads where kids are seriously considering dropping out after a year because their grades are not good and their job prospects for biglaw aren’t too great. They want to keep their debt low- so some contemplate dropping out before their debt level gets out of hand.
Those type of dire postings may have always been on TLS- but I am just beginning to pay more attention to them as my own kid has to make serious decisions soon. Or maybe there is more discussion about debt because of the economy and current job prospects.
Oh well.</p>
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<p>This. 2009’s recruiting season was possibly the worst ever; I remember talking to recruiters, consultants, and market analysts, and none of them had ever experienced the sort of carnage that was (and still is) wrought on the legal industry.</p>
<p>I even remember my school bringing in partners who had been hired in recessions, so that they could give advice; even they were at a loss, for the recessions they experienced were not nearly as dramatic as this one. </p>
<p>Fast forward to today, I know people at the top of the class or on law review (or both) at T10s and T6s who struck out. In prior economies, we might have seen a mixed bag for people in the bottom third of a T10, and maybe bottom quarter to bottom 10% at a T6, but in this economy, getting a high position from either of those “regions” is almost certain not to happen; moreover, even people in the median of the class had only one or two callbacks, and were lucky to get offers. Things only really got “marginally safe” for those in the top third, and even then… if your personality was terrible… you’d probably be out of the running no matter how good your credentials are.</p>
<p>So that’s why law students are worrying. 1L grades determine everything, and to end up at median or below might mean that one must seriously consider whether they’d be willing to struggle to pay of debt while working at a job that pays significantly less than $160,000.</p>
<p>That said, I do think 2010’s recruiting season will be better than 2009’s, and I think it’ll get even better from there on out. But I don’t think recruiting will return to 2007 levels for a long, long time; and until that happens, prospective law students must be exhaustive in researching career options, in this economy, from various areas of the class at a given law school. </p>
<p>I do think it’s possible to succeed in the recruiting season, even if one’s grades are not in the top third; but I think the personality required for that would be a rare one among Gen-Y students.</p>
<p>Incredibly useful blog that I read religiously: [Hiring</a> Partner’s Office](<a href=“http://hiringpartneradvice.blogspot.com/]Hiring”>http://hiringpartneradvice.blogspot.com/)</p>