deciding between 2 colleges

Parents Forum
1

<p>i posted this on the college search board but 'Dudediligence' suggested that I may get some interesting opinions from some of the parents. I hope you don't mind.</p>

<p>this is more of a vent/have no other place to turn type of post. i understand if no one has any solid advice for my predicament.</p>

<p>i have narrowed my college selection to two schools-- goucher (MD) and belot (WI) ... i was accepted at both by the way.</p>

<p>i want to go to Beloit. i had an amazing experience there and everyone i met was incredibly nice, helpful, and positive. i loved it there.
i also visited goucher and had a less positive experience (probably because i was sick that day, traveled many hours to get there, and it was pouring rain) i did not feel the same connection to goucher as i did to beloit however im afraid that i really did not give it a fair chance.</p>

<p>so heres the problem: i am Jewish. and not just in the cultural sense. i'm fairly religious and depend a lot on my Jewish community. I literally can not imagine living in a place with out a strong Jewish community. I depend on it sooo much. Beloit lacks this entirely, Goucher has a huge and very active Jewish community. I don't know how to weigh the good with the bad... any advice/personal experience would be amazing. this problem has taken over my life and to be honest, i just want to be done with the entire college process. i'm over it.</p>

<p>on top of that, when i think about it, leaving california (my home) scares me more then anything. when i applied to colleges in october i wanted nothing more then to get out of CA and get away from my family...i didnt even apply to a single school in this state (or the west coast) and im feeling like that was a huge mistake, i really don't want to leave, but i know its out of fear...this makes the decision even harder because i know that a strong Jewish community would make the transition to college a ton easier.
but alas, i want to go to beloit. im so conflicted!</p>

2

<p>Write it down? pros, cons, what is your goal, which college will come closer etc.
Most likely you will do great in either one so it is all about small preferences. Beloit does not have strong Jewish community but has plenty of Jewish students.
If you still can not decide before May1 you might want to send deposit to both places and give yourself more time. Schools usually take few students extra just for this very reason that during summer 10-20 kids will drop out, change their mind etc.</p>

3

<p>Dear Successful college applicant. Congrats on your two offers. It is scary to leave cool West Coasters for a new region of the USA. Sounds so exciting till it is real. My S actually returned to one school twice in April..OK it was only a 3 hour drive but still. He didn't feel warmly enough about it till the second look. Frankly, a couple things happened the first day that gave him serious pause. No college is perfect. They all have drawbacks.<br>
I think you should give Goucher a second look if growing up (from 18-22) with some Jewish friends in your crowd of peers and a Jewish cultural center nearby means a lot to you. I happen to believe that this is a very important time socially in the lives of all young adults.<br>
I am not Jewish, but there were no Jewish students in my undergrad college scene, and I really felt "something was missing" the whole time I was there. I was used to diversity and it was a nagging thing for me despite the fact that I loved my friends and my teachers and give accolades where they are due to my alma mater.<br>
I bet Beloit was indeed wonderful, and it is ever so true that even trips to Paris are ruined if it rains every day. You probably did not give Goucher the same shot. First impressions do skew things for us all.
Goucher is also a friendly college in a large urban sprawl region of the USA with access to both all the yucky things about Beltway life which do color things in even quiet corners of Maryland and intrude...the traffic, the traffic, the commute, the traffic, and the fun fun things..the incredible constant events, artistic ventures, the diversity in race and thought and place of origin everywhere you go. Goucher is tucked away in a cozy campus but you not only have access to a lively Jewish community, you have access to cultural events in both Baltimore and DC for special outings. Good internship options and definitely a diverse community in the surrounding millions of people.
I would hate to see you preparing a college transfer app next spring as it is quite OK to do so but it is tiring. Better not to be impatient now. Ask to speak on the phone to a current student, order a DVD, or get on a redeye and give it one more weekend. Then decide. My son received phone calls from seniors and recent graduates from three of his colleges..you can also initiate this. Students tend to be quite frank with each other.</p>

4

<p>You have to somehow find out if Beloit has at least a minimal Jewish community for you. If it really doesn't, go for Goucher. One of my friends' sons, a people-oriented, pre med from St. Paul MInnesota) had a wonderful experience there. I don't know if you're male or female, mjb06, but the female-male ratio at Goucher is 70/30. Good luck!</p>

5

<p>Hi,
Can you visit Goucher again so that you can see it in a more positive light (not sick and not pouring rain). That may "seal the deal" </p>

<p>I totally understand your concerns. We have a bit of the same problem. We are Italian Catholic living in the south (which can be a bit anti-Catholic). I am concerned about my kid going to a school which might make him feel strange/different. (I would feel better about him going to a school with high Jewish numbers because I think Catholics and Jews get along great -- fun loving ethnic groups that love God, family and food!)</p>

<p>Like you, the people that we have met during southern college visits have been soooo nice but I worry once my son is on the campus he might feel "odd". I have the same concern for you. If you can, try to visit Goucher again so that you can make a true comparison and choice. Maybe my concerns are unfounded. Who knows! Good Luck!! :)</p>

6

<p>Are there any Jews at Beloit at all? If there are, what a wonderful opportunity for you to start a Jewish group - colleges are terrible receptive to students starting groups on their own. Many even have funds available just for this. If you could get something started, and do some great activities for the general student population you could show them something that they perhaps have never experienced. What a wonderful gift for you to give diversity to others. And hwat a legacy for you to leave to your school! Something to explore with the admissions people. They know who you would have to contact, and maybe you could explore this some more before you make your final decision. But whatever you decide, I know you will be happy, because you weighed all the pros and cons.</p>

7

<p>MJB, I can't offer any guidance between Beloit and Goucher...both good schools. But don't freak about leaving California...moving away from the safe & familiar is an opportunity for growth and there's no better time and place than college, which has all sorts of built in safety nets and training wheels, to do this in.</p>

<p>I also would re-cast the issue of faith community from "large" to "what's the threshhold". My D is Catholic at a college that's not known for its religious affinities to say the least...yet there's a small but active community there that fits her needs. If you're living in the L.A. area in particular, virtually everyplace but NYC is going to seem "a lot less Jewish."</p>

<p>Two cents from the meshugganah goyim.</p>

8

<p>Thank you everyone for your advice. I am definitely considering taking another visit to Goucher, however I am reluctant because of the experience I had when I visited before, and it is very far away. I guess the size of the Jewish community isn't really what concerns me its more the idea of finding a place of comfort--like a little peice of home. I don't mind sort of creating my own Jewish community like evitajr1 suggested. In fact the idea sort of excites me. I'm not really sure what I want right now, but life goes on i guess.</p>

<p>Thank you for all of you input, it is very helpful to me. I hope I can come to a decision soon (even though I have until may 1) because if I don't decide soon I'm afraid my head might explode.</p>

9

<p>"...i want to go to Beloit. i had an amazing experience there and everyone i met was incredibly nice, helpful, and positive. i loved it there...."</p>

<p>My S had the same experience at Beloit when he visited one year ago. He has friends there and they tend to say the same thing. He applied early, was admitted and got an Eaton scholarhsip. He has another acceptance in hand from another (more prestigious) LAC back east but Beloit is still #1 in his book. While he is awaiting word on several more applications, I think his gut feeling is that Beloit is the school for him. You may know in your gut that Beloit is a good fit for you.</p>

<p>There is a Beloit organization, Am Yisrael. I have attached their mission statement.</p>

<p>"Mission: To promote Jewish and Israeli culture on the Beloit College campus, foster Jewish identity among Jewish students at Beloit College, provide a casual environment for Jewish students at Beloit College to interact, and to reach out to the Beloit College community to educate them on Jewish and Israeli issues. "</p>

<p>S considered, but did not visit Goucher. Baltimore, MD is a very different place from Beloit, WI. What kind of geographical learning place are you seeking? How about weather? Don't forget its co-o-o-ld in WI! </p>

<p>Good luck. Both choices are great.</p>

10

<p>mjb-- sounds like you could use an adult's perspective. Are you near a college campus or do you know the Hillel Rabbi at any of the schools in your area? The Hillel folks are usually well-connected to each other; if they don't the situation at Beloit they're usually two phone calls away from someone who does. If this resource doesn't work, you might just ask your congregational Rabbi to see if you can get plugged in.</p>

<p>If you were my kid, I'd be voting for Goucher. College can be fantastic in many ways, and fantastically isolating and alienating in others. Having a built in support system of a community that is there for you is a very good way to avoid a lot of the adjustment problems that kids and parents on CC are constantly writing about. </p>

<p>There is no perfect college. However, based on both the happy and unhappy college kids I know and have known, finding a college which has the ingredients you need so that you can make a good, challenging, comfortable existence for four years seems to be the winning ticket.</p>

<p>It would be great if you could build a community at Beloit which could work for you.... but it's not just a numbers game-- as you know. Highly identified Jews tend to seek out other highly identified Jews-- and so the dozens or hundreds of Jewish kids at Beloit obviously didn't need, want or care that the Jewish infrastructure wasn't in place (vs. the literally hundreds of campuses with Kosher meal plans, Hillel Rabbis, regular programming, etc.)</p>

11

<p>Congratulations on having the problem of choosing between two such wonderful schools! :)</p>

<p>The daughter of Carolyn, a very well known poster on this board, will be attending Beloit in the fall. Perhaps you can PM her. I'm sure she and her daughter can help you out. I believe they live in CA.</p>

<p>I live in VA (and like an earlier poster am Italian Catholic), and know of a young lady who is a freshman at Goucher. She is Jewish, and loves it there. Suburban MD outside of DC has a large Jewish population. The DC area offers a great deal culturally. The diversity is wonderful. I attended Geo. Wash. Univ., which way back then and now had a large Jewish population and I learned to eat kosher food, participate in seders, and enjoyed every minute. Being thrown into new situations and embracing cultural differences is one of the beauties of being in college. It is really life changing...and one of the things that might be factored into your decision.</p>

<p>A thought in parting, please don't assume that a college doesn't care about you or your strong religious ties simply because it doesn't have an infrastructure already in place. True, it may be that you would prefer to have these options already in place and robust, but too you may wish to be the one to gather your peers together and form some of them for the first time. Just try not to make assumptions about the climate around you. I found being thrown into a new cultural environment to be a truly wonderful experience.</p>

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<p>thank you for all your advice. i wish i could enjoy this happy time knowing that i am accepted into 2 great colleges but im really having trouble coming to terms with making a decision. in a way i guess im a little disapointed in myself for not just knowing what school is right for me. i know that sounds sooo ridiculous. </p>

<p>Blossom- my mother is also pushing for goucher.</p>

<p>but alas, i loved beloit. (gahh why cant i have the best of both worlds??)</p>

13

<p>Mjb: Here’s the address of the Hillel advisor at Beloit: <a href="mailto:lichtens@beloit.edu">lichtens@beloit.edu</a>. Why not e-mail him/her to find out more about the community? Maybe you can get your name added to a listserv. There may be enough activity to suit you. Think about what you need: programming, Shabbat services, Kosher meals? The Hillel advisor will fill you in.</p>

<p>Here’s my D‘s story. She transferred from an LAC to a mid-sized university in part because of the absence of a vibrant enough Jewish community. There were about 500 Jewish kids at school #1, quite a few, but she found that the Jewish community just was not very active. It turned out that quality, not just quantity, mattered to her. She did know several kids there, though, who were very active in the Hillel and didn’t mind being part of a miniscule group that ran the show. They enjoyed building community, even if building was a pretty much constant uphill battle. If you’re that sort of person, Beloit may work well for you, particularly because it sounds like a great fit for you otherwise. (The school my D left was a poor fit for her in other ways: It has a dominant social culture that permeates the whole campus life and that just didn’t suit her.)</p>

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<p>I agree with the advice to more fullly explore the Jewish community at Beloit. I bet it will reassure you.</p>

<p>Then go with your gut.</p>

<p>Beloit is a wonderful school. I would be amazed if between kids, faculty, & staff,there was not enough Judiasm at Beloit to satisfy you.</p>

<p>Goucher is a wonderful school too, but you say something about Beloit excites you a little bit more. It is fitting and proper to pick the place that really exictes you with no perjorative judgement about the other place implied. (BTW I think Goucher is great and could make you happy too.)</p>

<p>My D went far from home and had a big emotional transition to make. She went through a time-- when the decision was not yet made-- that was agonizing. Once your decision is made it will all fall into place. You will be so happy. If you pick the place you don't "want" you will second guess the choice. So pick the place you really want and make it turn out great!</p>

<p>College is sooooo fun-- don't let the details worry you too much!</p>

15

<p>If Beloit attracts you more and there is some Jewish presence there, I think you will be happy there--as long as you are willing to expand your comfort zone and enjoy the company of non-Jews who share some of your interests as well. This is all part of a liberal education. A smaller Jewish community could also mean closer , more supportive relationships.</p>

<p>If you are from California, however, be sure you are prepared for cold winters--in this respect, Goucher might be less of a shock.</p>

<p>Another consideration for Goucher--they are turning towards great emphasis on study abroad--if a semester in Israel appealed to you, you could probably arrange that with Goucher.</p>

16

<p>Mjb06 - first congrats, secondly you are getting great advice on how to decide, I have nothing to add to that. Sending a PM to "Carolyn" is a great suggestion, not only is her D going to Beloit, but Goucher was very high on her list, and Carolyn is a big proponent of that school as well.</p>

<p>Finally, if I can indulge with a little psychoanalysis, I think your relatively sudden reluctance to leave CA is a combination of normal senior cold feet, and the effect of having this decision weighing on your mind. Think of it this way, if you talk yourself out of going away to school, then you don't have to decide between the 2 schools, and you, possibly, don't have to disappoint you Mom - everyone is happy, except you in a year or so when you might realize what you gave up.</p>

<p>Follow all this great advice to make a decision, put the leaving home concerns aside, then if you are still very sad afterward. Talk to your parents about a gap year, or other plans, BUT, I bet once the decision is made, you will be much more excited about leaving.</p>

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<p>Can you go to visit Goucher again to give Goucher a second chance? </p>

<p>Both are excellent schools but different environments. We are Jewish also, and high on my sons' lists of requirements for any school is a "Jewish presence" even though we are not highly observant. While we don't keep strictly kosher, my kids don't mix milk and meat or eat pork, etc. My oldest son finds that going to Shabbat services on Friday night has become important to him even though it never was at home. Sometimes he stays for the dinner after, sometimes he goes out on the town instead (Atlanta is a great town to go out on) The Hillel sponsors a lot of things that he has become involved in although he has become involved in a lot of non-Hillel things on campus as well. </p>

<p>You have to decide if you can be happy in the environment that Beloit provides. Do you need Kosher food or shabbat dinners? Would you feel comfortable explaining your beliefs and practices to others on a fairly frequent basis? When one of his friends had a death in the family last year, he and his friends formed a minyan for both morning and evenings.</p>

<p>Beloit is an excellent school but you might feel a bit like a fish out of water. One of my son's friends, a girl, went to Kalamazoo, a great school, and ended up transferrring because of the lack of a Jewish presence--she just felt like she never quite fit in.</p>

18

<p>Mjb06,</p>

<p>I can't tell you how much your post rings a bell. Our son attends a Jewish high school and is active in synagogue. He has been struggling with this issue ever since he began his college search. As the time comes to pick a school, he's still trying to decide just how "Jewish" a campus he wants/needs in order to be happy. </p>

<p>There's so many factors that go into the Jewish equation. Judaism is a religion but it's also an ethnic group and a culture. What are you looking for? Is it the size of the Jewish community, Friday services and dinner, celebrating the holidays, birthright trips to Israel, study courses, or kosher food for Passover? For each student, there's a different answer. </p>

<p>I would urge you to contact the Hillel advisor on each campus. Wjb has given you the e-mail address of Diane Lichtenstein, Beloit's advisor. The Hillel phone numbers are (608) 363-2262 or (608) 363-2071. My son found it helpful to speak with the Hillel people (instead of just e-mailing). He could have a back and forth conversation and ask questions about things that were important to him. </p>

<p>I would also call Goucher to have a basis of comparison. They have three staff members: Alison Wielechowski, Director, <a href="mailto:awielech@goucher.edu">awielech@goucher.edu</a>; Rachel Hertzman, Campus Rabbi, <a href="mailto:rebberach@aol.com">rebberach@aol.com</a>; and Ezra Flom, 2005/2006 JCSC Fellow, <a href="mailto:ezra.flom@goucher.edu">ezra.flom@goucher.edu</a>. Thephone is 410-337-6545. </p>

<p>From the look of the Beloit website, Am Yisrael mainly focuses on celebration of the holidays. They have a seder, a chanuka dinner, a Yom Kippur "feast and fast". It doesn't look as if they have any regular services or shabbat dinners. You need to double check that with the Hillel advisor. If they don't have services, you need to ask yourself how much that would bother you on a weekly basis, or for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. There are other serious questions you may want to raise: how badly, for example, would you want to go on a birthright trip to Israel? That is an option at Goucher, but probably not at Beloit.</p>

<p>It's definitely possible to help build and revitalize a Hillel on a small campus. The advisor is often looking for kids who are willing to roll up their sleeves and work. During the application process, my son has been involved in serious conversations with Hillel people at both Union College and Brown, finding out how he could contribute and how his interests/skills meshed with their needs. One of Brown's main attractions for him is not the rankings, but the fact that the Hillel is so dynamic and there's a small and friendly orthodox synagogue nearby. If you think you'd like to be a pathbreaker and help build up the Hillel, definitely contact the Beloit advisor and speak with her about that. You'll get a real sense of what already exists and what is possible. </p>

<p>Finally, if at all possible, visit Goucher to see if your first impression was accurate. Ideally, you should do this on a Friday so you can spend time at the shabbat dinner and service. Hillel will generally match you up with a Jewish host. (My son did this last weekend at U Rochester.) You may get an entirely different feel for the campus, or you may decide your first impression was right. Yes, it costs money to visit but it would be an even more costly mistake to go somewhere for freshman year where you are unhappy because you didn't look at the campus closely enough.</p>

<p>Best of luck in making these decisions! They aren't easy..... My gut feeling from what you said in the first post that you may be more comfortable at Goucher, but only you can make that final decision.</p>

<p>.</p>

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<p>I agree with the posters who urged you to learn more about the Jewish presence at Beloit before you decide.</p>

20

<p>Cami makes a good point about getting to help "build" the Hillel/Jewish life at Beloit. The only sticking point is whether the few Jewish students at Beloit have already made a choice about their level of Jewishness by choosing Beloit ? Some (Not all) of the Jewish students at Beloit may not feel being Jewish is important to them,</p>