Deciding between USC and CAL

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of California - Berkeley
21

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LMAO. Self-sufficiency?

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Just to be clear I meant academic self-sufficiency, not general or economic self-sufficiency.</p>

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My theory is this is about culture. If you think you are at the pinnacle school and you are paying through the nose to be there, you'll accept that there are just certain ways they do things more readily. At Berkeley, there is a culture of complaint sometimes and people tend to think the grass must be greener on the other side.

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<p>Yeah I think this is also a part of the issue as well. People who got into their dream school have set themselves up into a position where they are reluctant to complain about that school. On the other hand people who got into an otherwise good school but were rejected from their top choices are more likely to complain out of a bitter feeling that they deserved better.</p>

22

<p>Who says that Berkeley can't be a dream school? Something tells me that the vast majority of Cal students wanted to go there.</p>

23

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Who says that Berkeley can't be a dream school? Something tells me that the vast majority of Cal students wanted to go there.

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<p>Of course. Even Boston College was ranked in the top 10 in the Princeton Review dream schools rankings (Berkeley didn't make it though... eh). If Boston College can be a dream school Cal can surely be a dream school.</p>

<p>But I'm pretty sure that the percentage of Harvard students who consider Harvard to be their dream school is higher than the percentage of Berkeley students who consider Berkeley to be their dream school.</p>

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<p>Probably true. Something tells me that a lot of people also consider Harvard a dream school just by default, rather than a serious consideration of what 4 years at Harvard is all about.</p>

25

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Just to be clear I meant academic self-sufficiency, not general or economic self-sufficiency.

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<p>Still LingMAO.</p>

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On the other hand people who got into an otherwise good school but were rejected from their top choices are more likely to complain out of a bitter feeling that they deserved better.

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<p>This may be true sometimes, but Berkeley is not entirely full of a bunch of people that wanted to go elsewhere. I was referring to a cultural difference, not necessarily about being bitter about being rejected. There are these kinds at many schools. There are also a lot of people who dreamed about being at Berkeley. I think that the biggest disconnect comes in three forms: 1) Disappointment that Berkeley has a diversity and ultimately doesn't have an undergrad that consistently matches the excellence of its undergrad programs.2) Berkeley's a state school and this is about a sense of entitlement. 3) A culture, plain and simple, of skepticism and anti-idol worship.</p>

26

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If I attend USC, I want to study Communications and IR. At CAL, I would go into business. What majors do you think will have more opportunities for me after graduation?

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<p>Assuming you get into business at Berkeley, you would definitely have more opportunities after graduation. But that's with the caveat that you get in.</p>

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Talk to the students. You will see a difference.</p>

<p>Go to a class of 300 at Cal and listen to the TA. Then go to a class of 40 at USC and listen to the professor lecture.

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<p>Only 7% of Berkeley's classes are over 100 (this is in CDS). I would guess only around 1% of Berkeley's classes are over 300. By the way, classes are all taught by professors, with TAs leading discussion sections, just like they do at USC. Doesn't sound like you've actually attended either college.</p>

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If those statistics are true then why does Berkeley or UCLA have an infamous reputation for huge class sizes when in fact their classes aren't much different from Ivies or other top tier schools?

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<p>Mostly myth. That and most high schoolers don't realize that all the Ivy League schools also have large intro classes, along with most other colleges in the US (exceptions are probably the LACs).</p>

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My theory is this is about culture. If you think you are at the pinnacle school and you are paying through the nose to be there, you'll accept that there are just certain ways they do things more readily. At Berkeley, there is a culture of complaint sometimes and people tend to think the grass must be greener on the other side.

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<p>Actually, Harvard students are some of the most vocal out there when it comes to complaining about their education. For all the problems Berkeley has, students put up with it, for the most part. I think this is due to higher expectations. Students go into Harvard with high expectations so they demand better education.</p>

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Who says that Berkeley can't be a dream school? Something tells me that the vast majority of Cal students wanted to go there.

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This may be true sometimes, but Berkeley is not entirely full of a bunch of people that wanted to go elsewhere.

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<p>Actually, I'd bet that the majority of Berkeley students want to go elsewhere. For every student I see whose first choice was Berkeley I see three others who attend Berkeley because they didn't get into some Ivy League school. Not that I'm trying to suggest that Berkeley is filled with rejects, but that's just how the college admission process works. You always aim a little higher and usually don't get into your first choice school. With maybe the exception of Harvard, Yale, MIT and the like, all the other schools have many students whose first-choice was really another school.</p>

27

<p>If you are not preppy and do not like sports, which school do YOU think will fit? I'm saying Cal . . .</p>

28

<p>I went to USC and they told me that they have classes with 250
students...but that they are the "general" classes...</p>

29

<p>The problem is that people build up schools like Harvard or MIT to the point where they are bound to be at least somewhat disapointed. Notably, people who got most of their information on College Confidential are going to feel it the worst, since this place has such a high oppinion of HYPS. The truth is that ALL research university's are going to have some big classes. If class size is that important to you, you should certainly look towards LACs. As for people being at berkeley only because they were rejected from their top choice, I'd say that its a mixed bag of people like that and of people who are maybe on the bottom end of Cal admits and feel lucky to even be there. But as one of the other posters mentioned, unless you got into HYPS, you probably aren't attending your first choice school. And that is not unique to Cal.</p>

30

<p><a href="http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/admission/admissions_faq.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/admission/admissions_faq.html&lt;/a>
What is the average class size? Who teaches?
Answer: The average class size is 26 students, and the overall student to faculty ratio is 14:1. Professors or lecturers teach all courses at USC; TAs do not teach classes. TAs lead discussion sessions or labs to supplement lectures given by professors.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.answers.com/topic/university-of-california-berkeley%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.answers.com/topic/university-of-california-berkeley&lt;/a>
UCB-Class size ranges from introductory courses with hundreds of students and seminars with fewer than ten.</p>

31

<p>Vicissitudes- you are painting a very dismal and unrealistic picture saying 1-4 students (so about 1100 of the 4400 from the class of 2010??) at Cal selected it as #1...</p>

32

<p>My sister's dream school is Cal</p>

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<p>I think that probably 1/2 to 2/3 of everyone at Cal had it as their REALISTIC #1. The question is not if students would've gone to Harvard rather than Cal, its if they are disapointed that they didn't get into Harvard (or several other top schools). I would guess that about 1/3 of the students at Cal had the stats to be at least competitive to get into a school like Harvard, and those are the ones that probably feel like they're not at their number one. As everone says on these boards, the bottom quarter of Cal admits had no chance of getting into HYPSM, so they're not going to feel disapointed at getting into Cal.</p>

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For all the problems Berkeley has, students put up with it, for the most part.

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<p>According to the statistics, Berkeley actually isn't much worse than some of the prestigious ivies in terms of the issue of having too many large and impersonal classes.
Yet, in the case of schools like Berkeley, this issue seems to draw an unduly large amount of negative attention, while at the Ivies, it seems to be less noticed.
This seems to suggest that students at schools like Berkeley, more than the students at the ivies, are more vocal in complaining about this particular issue.</p>

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I was referring to a cultural difference, not necessarily about being bitter about being rejected. There are these kinds at many schools. There are also a lot of people who dreamed about being at Berkeley. I think that the biggest disconnect comes in three forms: 1) Disappointment that Berkeley has a diversity and ultimately doesn't have an undergrad that consistently matches the excellence of its undergrad programs.2) Berkeley's a state school and this is about a sense of entitlement. 3) A culture, plain and simple, of skepticism and anti-idol worship.

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<p>OK, so you're basically stating that the reason that Berkeley students are more vocal in complaining is simply because complaining is a favorite student past time at Berkeley. However, is this really a satisfactory explanation?</p>

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Still LingMAO.

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<p>Let me try to explain again then. </p>

<p>Capable and self-sufficient students are less likely to be affected by large classes and lack of personal attention because even without external aid and attention, they know how to actively seek out academic opportunities, learn material on their own, and otherwise achieve academic success. These types of students are less likely to be negatively affected and are hence less likely to complain.</p>

<p>Then there are students who are less capable and self-sufficient but who are otherwise eager to achieve their academic goals (ie it's not the case that they just don't care). These types of students may have difficulty learning course material on their own without extra academic help and tutoring. They may also have trouble seeking out academic opportunities without external guidance and counseling. These students can be significantly more negatively affected by the issue of large, anonymous classes and lack of personal attention. As a result they are more likely to complain about this issue.</p>

<p>Schools like Berkeley, when compared to schools like Harvard/MIT, have a larger percentage of the second type of student. As a result, when such students are particularly feeling the negative effects of a large and impersonal academic atmostphere, it is all too easy for them to find other students who are feeling the exact same way. Their complaints are legitimized and strengthened in this way since there is a significant community of students facing similar situations and with similar complaints. I guess this may give rise to a "culture" where students are likely to be vocal about their complaints.</p>

35

<p>lde099,</p>

<p>You're ignoring the possibility that the complaints are the result of the past. It may be that current students don't complain that much, but that an old rumor is dying hard.</p>

36

<p>
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You're ignoring the possibility that the complaints are the result of the past. It may be that current students don't complain that much, but that an old rumor is dying hard.

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<p>Has the situation suddenly changed so that current students have suddenly stopped complaining?</p>

37

<p>At least on this site (bad sample, I know), class size doesn't come up much.</p>

38

<p>Cal is my dream school. That's why I'm appealing.</p>

39

<p>go for it haloraider, it's worth trying. Cal was my dream school, and I haven't regreted being here for one second.</p>

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<p>Unfortunately haloraider, that in itself is not a good enough reason to get you an appeal.</p>