<p>DD is interested in a medium sized research university strong in the sciences. She has been accepted to both and scheduled a return visit to each before the May 1st deadline. Pros for WashU would be great academics, higher ranked school, 5 hour drive from home, great food and dorms, better weather, at least 1 person she knows will be attending. Cons, full price.</p>
<p>Pros for Rochester, great academics, $15,000 merit scholarship. Cons, plane ride away, no one she knows, school not as well known in the midwest.</p>
<p>What are some tangibles or intangibles should we look for as we visit both schools and decide where to attend. Should the $15,000/year be the deciding factor? We could swing it with a few more sacrifices.</p>
<p>If you’re not accustomed to upstate New York winters, they could be a truly gigantic shock. Seriously, some people just can’t imagine how anyone survives them.</p>
<p>We are used to Chicago winters, is Rochester that much more brutal?
(Although why she didn’t look somewhere warm for schools is beyond me, oh well, maybe my two other girls will choose sunnier locals).</p>
<p>Rochester is warmer than Chicago, but gets more snow. I wouldn’t worry about it.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, Rochester is a much smaller city than St. Louis (although URochester is much more centrally located in it than WashU is in St. Louis). Both will feel provincial to a kid from Chicagoland.</p>
<p>Sciences: opportunities to do research and more importantly, how many undergrads are involved in research. If she gets a science degree and might pursue it further, it would help tremendously with graduate school admissions. Also how many undergrads go on for graduate work and to where? My hunch is Rochester would win hands down but I might be wrong on that. And keep in mind, I think the whole USNWR rank is nonsense.</p>
<p>Schools are both excellent and similar in size. Rochester is smaller city than St. Louis, no pro sports teams, for example. Also, the campus is outside the city, and not really in a neighborhood. WashU, while just outside the city, is on a subway line with free and quick transportation into downton. It also has the U City loop neighborhood right near by.</p>
<p>The main difference, to me, however, is that WashU will have, on average, a higher caliber student body. For my kids, it was good to be around the best possible students, as I think that that brought out the best in them. Others, however, may prefer to be one of the best arounda at their school. This is clearly a personal choice.</p>
<p>My daughter is considering Rochester now. She didn’t apply to WashU because it’s in St. Louis, which is not only far but which doesn’t appeal as a place to her. She heard the competitive pressure at WU can be bad - which I found interesting because the presentations were all about cooperation. I don’t trust what kids hear.</p>
<p>Rochester is a fairly nice place. It snows a ton but it isn’t mind-numbing cold like Chicago. (A big part of my family lives in Lincoln Park and I can say with absolute assurance that Rochester is at least not as windy. More snow.) We have friends who live in the city - work at the medical school, do music. It’s not Boston or Chicago but then neither is St. Louis.</p>
<p>My impression of the school is that it’s profile is lower than its real world ranking. (Perhaps in part because they take a fairly negative view of USNWR rankings.) Rochester is somewhat smaller than WU. As you likely know, both get a lot of research money and that is also pretty much in scale with their relative sizes (and much of that is because both have medical schools). If you have a specific interest, you’d need to see where the money goes. For example, ASEE - engineering society - says they get the same amount of research funding for engineering but half of WU’s is biomedical, while Rochester’s is more spread out. You can search ASEE profiles [url=<a href=“http://profiles.asee.org/]here[/url”>http://profiles.asee.org/]here[/url</a>]. Just go to the “research expenditures” link on the left for any school and you’ll see how the money goes to each part of engineering. This gives a sense of strengths.</p>
<p>What attracted my daughter so far to Rochester is the ability to do research as an undergrad and that you design your own course of study. I’ve been impressed by a few things. Your daughter likely received a personalized admissions letter, one that referred to her interests. I liked that. I spent some time talking with one of the admissions deans and found his attitude toward rankings honest and refreshing.</p>
<p>In context, not knowing your finances, I’d take $15k any day. The schools are functionally equivalent unless one has a strength or peculiar quality that either attracts or repels. That’s $60k which you’d have to come up with and that’s not chicken feed. There is not a $60k difference in the schools.</p>
<p>As I recall Rochester has a more open curriculum and no language requirement, so it may offer more flexibility. Rochester is certainly very well respected around here, and has been gaining popularity ever since it made that Newsweek list of 25 new Ivies.</p>
<p>I strongly disagree. As someone who has taught at such a range of schools, from Ivy to state, I am absolutely convinced there is not a noticeable difference between schools like this in terms of study body (not to mention, what exactly is meant by ‘calibre’ in this context-- the biggest difference being preoccupation with a magazine’s selectivity rankings). It’s such a terrible shame this fixation on rank and meanginless differences in SAT scores that really make no difference to the student experience.</p>
<p>Thanks for all your thoughtful responses so far. Other considerations to take under account, DD is a bit of an introvert, wants a nurturing environment, will not knowing a soul at a school make for an initial rough ride?<br>
The city differences are less of an issue for her, although she did love the beautiful park next to WashU. She is interested in physics/neuroscience, definitely grad/medical school. Was all set on Rochester until the WashU admit came through, then she remembered the beautiful dorms, campus and how they also sold the undergrad research and collaboration.</p>
<p>Actually, I’d have a greater concern about going to a school with a good number of people you already know - too much temptation to stay in the comfort zone and address it like “13th grade.”</p>
<p>WashU is a great place with great students - no doubt about that. But WashU and Rochester are both members of the University Athletic Association, an athletic conference with an expressed mission to “compete with like academic institutions.” The eight member universities - WashU and Rochester, plus Chicago, Emory, NYU, Carnegie Mellon, Brandeis and Case Western Reserve - have created a cohort with one another for both athletic competition and branding of themselves. They all clearly consider one another as peer institutions.</p>
<p>The day for admitted students may just clarify things for your D. She will view the school from a can-I see-myself-here point of view, as opposed to will-I –be accepted? UR and WashU are peer schools in so many ways it may just be a gut feeling that will sway the decision. FWIW, my D needed to decide among UR, WashU and others and chose UR for engineering and pre-med. We also made a pros and cons list but ultimately (days before the check needed to be written for May 1) it came down to her gut feel. She is graduating this May and UR has been a wonderful experience for her. She also knew not a soul at UR before attending but has an innate sense of adventure, so it was not an issue. I’m with Lergnom in that I would take the $15K any day. Good luck!</p>
<p>Something else to consider is the UR policy that a fifth year is free if you have difficulty getting the classes you need. (I don’t know the precise requirements, but I’m sure the website explains it.) </p>
<p>Other UR plusses are the Eastman music conservatory connection, and the beautiful Finger Lakes area to which it is adjacent. </p>
<p>It has been advised that when assessing a merit scholarship one look carefully at the GPA or other requirements to keep it to see if they are realistic. </p>
<p>I’ve never been to either campus, but Rochester has always felt more intellectual and Wash U more pre-professional to me, in a “U of C is to Northwestern as Rochester is to WUSTL” kind of way. YMMV, of course. To me, WUSTL is not worth $60K more than Rochester.</p>
<p>My younger D is a sophomore at Univ of Rochester and is a neuroscience and math major. I’d be happy to answer any questions you may have about her experiences at UR. (I could also possibly tell you a bit about the physics program. D has a couple of friends who are physics majors.) </p>
<p>And Rochester winters have not lived up to the hype. We are from the sunny Southwest and my D was home last week for spring break complaining the whole time that it was warmer in Rochester than it was here in New Mexico! (Which is was.) Besides, if the weather gets truly bad–there are always the tunnels. D’s major concession to the weather has been to take my down jacket–which is older than she is–to school. </p>
<p>Rochester has lots of programs in place to help ease the transit for new students. Besides an RA, each freshman hall has a “Dandelion”–this is a sophomore student who has volunteered to act as an informal guide and big sister to the hall. Freshman RAs and Dandelions each separately organize monthly activities for their hall. These activities often include informal mixers with other floors/halls. During registration, there is a activities fair to make new students aware of the breadth of organizations/clubs/sports etc. </p>
<p>While my D isn’t a shrinking violet, neither is she the most outgoing person you ever met. She was able to meet a number of girls and guys who she felt comfortable with fairly quickly and some of those have evolved into friendships good enough to invite a kid who can’t go home easily (it’s a minimum of 8 hours by plane) into their homes when the school has a long weekend.</p>
<p>Wanted to add that the undergrad research opportunities at UR are fairly impressive. Many, if not most, of D’s science major friends have found lab positions. UR offers a range of grants and fellowships to their own undergrads to allow them to spend the summer on campus pursuing an independent research project. Another advantage at UR is the fact that the medical school is literally across the street from River Campus (main UG campus). Undergrads can work with med school professors and it’s not uncommon to have med school profs teach some of the upper level science classes. D has prof of psychiatry teaching her neuropsych class this semester. </p>
<p>Graduate school placement is also very good. D has told me about some of the very interesting programs that the upperclassmen she knows have gone to. UR has a strong reputation with those who know. (Even out her in NM where most people have even heard of UR, all the researchers and administrators at the 2 National Labs sit up and take notice when you say you went to University of Rochester.)</p>
<p>If you have questions about UR, I’d be happy to answer them–PM me.</p>
<p>She sounds like a better fit with UR, from the bit you’ve shared about her. I share Consolation’s view of the two places (hadn’t seen it written before, just my own sense), and also agree with Gadad about the risks of going to school with people you already know if its tough already for her to socially venture out. It would be very developmental (in a good way!).</p>
<p>"bit of an introvert, wants a nurturing environment, will not knowing a soul at a school make for an initial rough ride? "</p>
<p>WashU does an awesome job right from the start of making kids feel like they belong. As soon as the room assignments go out there are facebook pages for every floor in every dorm (monitored by the RAs for the floor). The kids feel like they know each other before they start. (This is probably true many places). They also have local admitted student events during the summer where you can meet others from your area who are going in the fall. When D got on the plane in August, she already knew a couple of the other passengers! Oh - and although she knew a few kids from her school who were going/had gone there, I don’t think she had very much contact with them once she was there (although they weren’t good friends to begin with anyway).</p>
<p>Right from the first day of orientation each floor in a dorm (and each dorm) arranges events so that the kids get to know each other & bond and become strong proponents of their floor/dorm. That is why (I believe) every WashU student is convinced their dorm is the best dorm! My D was quite introverted - she has blossomed at WashU. The convocation for freshman (held during the student/parent orientation) really demonstrates for the parents how quickly the kids have bonded with others in their dorms - each dorm wears a diff’t color t-shirt and every time their dorm is mentioned during the convocation, huge cheers go up! It’s quite an event!</p>
<p>Moreover, the school is VERY nurturing of the students AND the parents - the parents are made to feel as welcome as the students - from parent orientation to parent weekend every year and at all times in between. And, if you have questions, problems, issues, they are very accomodating! I cannot say enough good things about the atmosphere of the school in this respect! And, we were worried cuz WashU was so far from home and we had just the opposite experience when our first D went off to a local private university. I cannot say enough good things. </p>
<p>Also - D started as an engineering major and decided to switch after first day of classes to Arts & Sciences. The process was VERY easy and we were grateful there were a lot of options for her to choose from! She is also premed - according to her the collaboration far outweighs any competitiveness. There are also SO many small group study sessions and other resources for the freshman classes (especially math, science): PLTL study sessions (peer led, team learning), sophomores who live in the dorm and have “office hours” where the freshman can go get extra help in a specific subject, etc. PM if you want.</p>
<p>I would absolutely not worry about not knowing anyone on campus. Most kids won’t know anyone. The dorm set-up will have her meeting friends in no time.</p>