Decision by Friday needed - daughter is torn

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvey Mudd College
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<p>whoever has a chance to respond I'd love to hear your opinions.</p>

<p>My D has narrowed her college decision down to Harvey Mudd College and a small liberal arts college in Maine...she's been making pros and cons lists, but finds that there are very few cons on either list.</p>

<p>At HMC she thinks she would major in math and/or physics, perhaps engineering but that's less likely.</p>

<p>At the other school, she is interested in math, physics, also - but she could major in so many other things too, like economics, philosophy, english.... </p>

<p>I think she liked the personal fit better at Mudd, but that's not to say she was unhappy at the other school on admitted student day. The weather isn't a factor, and she's an outdoor club kind of girl, is a musician, loves deep conversations, generally quite introspective and social. </p>

<p>As her parents we don't want to bias her or lead her more to one school over the other, but I find myself thinking that socially she'll be happier at Mudd, though I think she won't have quite as balanced of a life due to the workload at Mudd (the other school is definitely challenging, but I don't see her struggling there) She wouldn't classify herself as nerdy or geeky, but she loved loved loved Mudd. She also mentioned the other day that she doesn't particularly love labs. She works very hard and is creative and bright and I think she could succeed at Mudd if she ends up being certain that math or physics will be her path. </p>

<p>Finally, she really was looking forward to "first year seminars" in college, and we haven't found anything that indicates that she would have that kind of experience at Mudd.</p>

<p>Maybe I just need to hear from other parents, in particular, whose child has chosen Mudd over another school that was a tie for first choice, and especially if anyone's child is strongly attracted to the humanities and social sciences.</p>

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<p>To be honest, it sounds like either place would be great for her, and whichever way she goes she’ll be happy.</p>

<p>Some people have suggested little techniques like imagining you are telling people you are going to (x), and then trying to determine whether you feel more disappointment of losing one over the other.</p>

<p>Sorry I’m no help. Decisions like this are just tough.</p>

<p>P.S. I would’ve mentioned something about the workload at Mudd, but it sounds like she already understands about that.</p>

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<p>Dear Clariano:</p>

<p>My D is in a similar situation. She was ecstatic to have received an acceptance to Mudd, but became less so after learning about the tough work load. She was told by someone whose brother goes there that several hours go into homework, labs and the curriculum and that there is not much time to pursue other subjects of interest. The nice thing about Mudd, however, is that a student can take any other classes at the Claremont consortium–time permitting, of course. She also heard that chances of getting into a top graduate school in a major of study outside of engineering and the applied sciences is difficult since Mudd is known to not give out many As. However, the job prospects for a graduate of Mudd is excellent; most land great paying jobs immediately in engineering!! For us, money is a bit of an issue and Mudd wasn’t too generous with their FA package. It’s tough to make a decision given your D’s options, but I’m sure everything will work out fine. We’re hopeful that our decision to not choose Mudd is the right one and believe that the future is what you make of it. Like your D, my D is still a bit undecided as to her major and career aspirations. The school she’s decided to attend encourages taking courses in several disciplines which should help her with her future goals while allowing her to fully appreciate and enjoy college. Good luck to your D!!!</p>

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<p>What is a “first year seminar?” The workload is indeed tough, perhaps even crushing, but I found a good deal of people I identified with and had a very good time overall. I wouldn’t worry too much about labs unless she goes into physics. There are 2 semesters of physics lab and 2 of chemistry required, but they are 1 unit each and won’t weigh you down too much if you aren’t good at them.</p>

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<p>Best of luck to both of your daughters!
“First year seminar” usually means a liberal arts (generally English/history) course for freshman only in small numbers (maybe 8 to 15) which will involve a lot of conversation in class.
Some thoughts (with the note that I have a son who applied to HM ED and is in.)

  1. I won’t entirely discount weather. Maine is cold and dark for a long time - and travel can be a problem at Thanksgiving and winter break both. But HM also has it’s smog and I know some kids who don’t like the idea of ‘no seasons’.
  2. Travel - probably not a tie-breaker, but maybe. Does the transportation cost differ dramatically for you?
  3. I wouldn’t take the work load warnings lightly. My son already is experiencing a HM-like load. He is taking four university courses, plus writing a senior thesis. It’s a lot of work, and requires a different sort of time management than a high school course load. There may not be a lot of room , given HM core, to experiment in depth with non-HM sorts of areas of interest.
  4. There is no avoiding a fair amount of lab work, but the core labs are done by all students - finding help, moral and practical, shouldn’t be a problem.
  5. Consortium courses- I learned at the ASP that , in fact, most Mudders do take courses at the other colleges, particularly in music.
  6. Do you know anything about transferring in the consortium? I will say it can be difficult to get stuck in an engineering focused school when you want to make a dramatic shift in major.
  7. I won’t focus too much on the possible grad school problem. If you look at where HMC seniors go, it’s pretty good.</p>
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<p>Congrats to your daughter on two great choices. My son is at Mudd, and a very close family friend is at the LAC in Maine. Both are really happy at their respective schools and haven’t for a moment regretted their choices. </p>

<p>My gut reaction is that if your daughter thought the fit was right at Mudd then she probably is right on that. You don’t have to be geeky nerdy (though many Mudders are). You just have to be passionate about math or physics (or the other STEM majors). The two choices are very different places. If the concern is the humanities side, Mudd is very heavy into the math and science, particularly with the core, but there is a big emphasis on the humanities as well. This was very important to my son when he was making the choice between schools. At the time he was focused on engineering programs, and was turned off by the lack of humanities options he found at other schools. He was coming from a high school with a heavy emphasis in the arts. He has taken art courses at Scripps every semester. One reason Mudd’s course load is so heavy, is that in addition to the tough core and the tough STEM majors, there is a significant humanities requirement, including a concentration. </p>

<p>Mudd is a very different place from your daughter’s other choice. Mudd has made it easier to do a semester abroad, but it takes some planning, and is very different from a place where it is assumed everyone will go abroad. There won’t be the option of English, etc., so she needs to be sure that she wants the math or physics route. She will work much harder at Mudd than at the LAC choice. One thing Mudd does is test the mettle of the student. It is like being tempered with fire. It makes the student very strong, but it is a tough process. </p>

<p>The tough grades at Mudd don’t seem to affect grad school admissions, unless the student is looking to med or law school. The PHd programs in math and physics are well aware of the grading scale at Mudd and how it compares to other schools. They have terrific placements, so I wouldn’t consider this an issue in picking Mudd. </p>

<p>Bottom line advice, flip a coin. If she is happy with the coin toss, go with it. If she is unhappy with the toss and says, go two out of three, ignore it and go to the other school. Once my son went to the admitted students program, he knew the fit was the best and there was no looking back. Although he has worked like a dog, and there were times I really worried about him, he is really happy there. As he finishes his junior year, I can see that it was a great experience. Plus, the job prospects are great after graduation if he decides to do that rather than grad school. </p>

<p>Good luck to your daughter!</p>

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<p>FWIW, don’t consider a transfer to Pomona as a Plan B if a STEM major does not work out at Mudd. This is what Pomona Admissions said when I asked. Maybe Scripps would do so; ask them.</p>

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<p>^</p>

<p>You can always just do an off-campus major at Pomona, CMC, Scripps, etc…</p>

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<p>@Suin: Core has been switched up a bit. Required labs have been reduced to 1 semester of chem, 1 of physics. There’s also 1 semester of choice lab, which are debuting next fall. Each involves some interdisciplinary combination of physics, math, chem, and bio topics. </p>

<p>As far as seminar goes, there’s a half semester writing course in fall of freshman year, which is taught by science/engineering/math profs. In the spring, there’s more of a traditional seminar type class, taught by hum profs, sections of 18 or so students. Each of these classes focuses in on a topic the instructor knows well. Students fill out preference forms, so you can influence placement. </p>

<p>If she decides to come to Mudd, she should be absolutely sure she likes math and science. If she ended up disliking math/physics, and do an off-campus major, she would still haveto finish Mudd’s core curriculum and complete a minor in one of Mudd’s standard majors. </p>

<p>As far as outdoors go, Mudd has a decent outdoors club, delta-H. They buy tents/stoves/water filters and have them available for checkout. They also lead a pre-orientation backpacking trip. This year we’re going to Yosemite for five nights! Delta-H also subsidizes student planned trips. On the Loose is the 5C outdoor club, and is active in planning many outings. There’s also some great hiking and biking trails a couple blocks north of campus. It’s very beautiful up there, but it’s definitely different from the lush beauty of Maine.</p>

<p>Good luck in deciding!</p>

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<p>I’m thinking back, and this is one thing that persuaded my D to chose a LAC over HMC.
HMC’s 4-year graduation rate is low. Here is the link.
[Graduation</a> Rates](<a href=“http://www.hmc.edu/about/administrativeoffices/registrar1/registrarstats1/gradrates.html]Graduation”>http://www.hmc.edu/about/administrativeoffices/registrar1/registrarstats1/gradrates.html)</p>

<p>There is a 15%-20% chance you will not graduate in 4 years. This is too low, especially after expending all the time and money. As a parent, I was also very concerned. The 4-year graduation rate at Bowdoin is closer to 90%. </p>

<p>I you aren’t positively 100% sure of HMC and you go there, your options are limited for your major, going abroad, etc. Does your daughter “really” know what she wants to do? </p>

<p>My D has really stretched herself with going abroad, studying upper level philosphophy and political science courses, while majoring in physics and spending 3 summers conducting physics research.</p>

<p>Best of luck, both great schools.</p>

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<p>Makes me want to cry… all that lab I had to go through…</p>

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<p>I’m not sure why Mom90 thinks going aboard would be limited at HMC. My freshman D is already planning her semester in France, the tuition/fin aid will apply to it and she is currently taking French at Pomona. It might be harder if you are a straight engineering major, but that would be true at any school because of the major requirements.</p>

<p>Also, here is a link to US NewWorld report for 4 year grad rates
[Highest</a> 4-Year Graduation Rates | Rankings | US News](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate]Highest”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate)</p>

<p>HMC 79%
Stanford 79
MIT 83%
NYU 78%
Smith 78%</p>

<p>I know HMC is working to bring the number up.</p>

<p>Good luck with your decision!</p>

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<p>delta-h definitely looks like a great group - and a pre-orientation hike up at Yosemite is a marvelous idea. It’s a very different climate (duh! The palm trees would be a big hint to us Northeast types…) and a different set of opportunities. From my very limited knowledge, I would tend to say that the kids at a top tier Maine college would probably be more ‘outdoorsy’ than Mudders, but that there are certainly a sufficient set of Mudders who like hiking and such. (That’s based mostly on the kids I know about - a small sample set.)
I don’t know how doing off-campus majors works so I can’t speak to that at all.
esquiar - can you explain about the core physics/chem courses - I’m confused about credits. My model would be two or three basic physics courses, each having the weight (credit/hour whatever measure you like) of a full one semester course, and probably including a lab. But I have the impression that Mudd’s core courses have different weights.
So , when I look at the sample first year schedule, there are FOUR chem courses - 23s,23d,23e and 24. But the 23s are all 1.5 credits, and the 24 is 1 credit. So, are they really more like two full one semester courses with a lab? Similarly, physics core of 23/23/24,51 - is that more like two or three full semester courses. Do the 1.5 courses run for a half semester?</p>

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<p>The Claremont Consortium is a great thing. But we also were told the other colleges accept very few transfer students. Students who pick Mudd need to know they will be happy with at least one of the Mudd majors. </p>

<p>Graduation rates can be affected by various factors (students on leave or co-op, students opting out of Engineering/STEM majors - common at many techie schools, etc).</p>

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<p>It is difficult to compare graduation rates. HMC’s rate is lower than many elite LACs, but very good for an engineering school. MIT has a similar rate. I suspect also that that slightly more kids leave HM because it is isn’t a fit than leave a more broadly appealing school.
It is true that study abroad is somewhat more difficult to manage at Mudd than at most LACs.
Sorry - I don’t imagine this info does much to shift your views!</p>

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<p>Nemom… why do you think study aboard is harder at Mudd? Again, so far that hasn’t been my D experience in the planning stages.
Has any HMC student reading this had any experience with the study aboard program?</p>

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<p>Here is HMC’s website’s link to the program…</p>

<p>[MUDD</a> Abroad](<a href=“http://www.hmc.edu/academicsclinicresearch/internationalopportunities/studyabroadprogram.html]MUDD”>http://www.hmc.edu/academicsclinicresearch/internationalopportunities/studyabroadprogram.html)</p>

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<p>Let us know how the decisions turn out!</p>

<p>My own bias: students have this opportunity to obtain a liberal arts education at a LAC, and can continue on to graduate school for more labs and problem sets. At a LAC you will also be interacting and making life long friends from students from nonscience areas. My own experience: earned a physics degree from a LAC, went on to earn a Ph.D. in engineering at top engineering school. I asked why they accepted me. Answer: “you went to ABC LAC and you have a physcis major.”</p>

<p>Is your student committed to spending their very first year at college working on problem sets and labs? I know HMC has its HUM classes, but in reading posts, the students don’t take them very seriously. HMC students take music and language off campus, but what are the real numbers for other nonscience classes?</p>

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<p>My D takes her HUM classes seriously. Other Mudders - do you take them seriously? She has put in as much thought and effort, it appears to me, with her papers as with her problem sets. But, HMC isn’t a traditional LAC for sure.</p>

<p>And, these students appear to be well rounded, so don’t think that going to HMC will mean you only make friends with one type of person.</p>

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<p>Mom90, I’ve heard that close to 30% of one’s classes are in the humanities. 10 is the minimum number of required classes…I never got the impression that they weren’t taken seriously, either.</p>