Declining value of universities

Parents Forum
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<p>Edit #2: This <em>is</em> a partial repost, my search skills are lacking apparently, sorry! :( Please delete if it's against the rules.</p>

<p>Reference: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1422900-do-students-get-bang-buck-going-american-universities.html?%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1422900-do-students-get-bang-buck-going-american-universities.html?&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I hope this is not a repost, I couldn't find a link to this article by searching here. I finally had a chance to catch up with this week's issue of The Economist and the following piece caught my eye:</p>

<p>Higher</a> education: Not what it used to be | The Economist</p>

<p>Here are a couple of salient bits:</p>

<p>"The cost of university per student has risen by almost five times the rate of inflation since 1983."</p>

<p>See chart (sorry, the forum won't let me inline it):</p>

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<a href="http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/290-width/images/2012/11/articles/body/20121201_USC536.png%5B/img%5D"&gt;http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/290-width/images/2012/11/articles/body/20121201_USC536.png

</a></p>

<p>"In 1962 one cent of every dollar spent in America went on higher education; today this figure has tripled ... [yet] America has only the 15th-largest proportion of young people with a university education."</p>

<p>Then there is this very worrying tidbit:</p>

<p>"... a federal survey showed that the literacy of college-educated citizens declined between 1992 and 2003. Only a quarter were deemed proficient, defined as 'using printed and written information to function in society, to achieve one's goals and to develop one's knowledge and potential'. Almost a third of students these days do not take any courses that involve more than 40 pages of ready over an entire term."</p>

<p>On CNN there's an opinion piece today about the impending student debt crisis:</p>

<p>The</a> looming crisis of student loan debt - CNN.com</p>

<p>"Student loan debt is reaching bubble-bursting levels. ... If the economy heads off the fast-approaching fiscal cliff and tax rates spike for lower- and middle-class Americans, it may accelerate student loan defaults to crisis levels. The big banks got their taxpayer bailout; taxpayers may soon be on the hook for another."</p>

<p>There are really two different issues here, the first being the crazy increase in college tuition costs in the US. I have to admit that as a Canadian citizen who studied in the province with the most heavily subsidized university education (undergraduate tuition ran me something like C$3000 a year from 2006 to 2010) I find the state of affairs in the US absolutely crazy. Funnily enough though, I know plenty of graduate students who flocked from Canada to the US for PhDs due to better funding opportunities at that level.</p>

<p>On the other hand is the issue of grade inflation and declining standards. The Economist notes: "A remarkable 43% of all grades at four-year universities are As, an increase of 28% percentage points since 1960."</p>

<p>But what no article talks about is why this grade inflation is downright necessary. Universities ultimately produce a product, a college-educated graduate. No one today wants to hire a < 3.0 GPA student, in fact there's an arms race to get higher, and higher GPAs. In sectors like investment banking or finance you won't even get an interview unless you have a very high GPA (3.5/4.0 or above). So why would a university produce a product that nobody wants (i.e. a graduate with subpar grades that is unemployable)? I really think this is a societal perception problem. It's not good enough to graduate college, but everyone has to have near perfect grades on paper to get any kind of job.</p>

<p>CNN's piece says this about the fees: "But above all, American society at large must stop pushing the notion that everyone should, or deserves, to go to a four-year college."</p>

<p>I think we also have to re-evaluate how we interpret college results. Perhaps a graduating class average of C+ should be acceptable, given that most of those graduates will enter industry as regular workers and not become researchers or professors.</p>

<p>I would love to hear some comments from the more experienced crowd here. :)</p>

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<p>I will just comment on the last part. </p>

<p>I am graduating in the spring. I have a lot of friends that graduated last year with jobs and many who are interviewing with jobs now. Not a single one was asked their GPA in an interview or on any form unless they were specifically after an academic job.</p>

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<p>I’ve heard that from a few others too. In my case no one explicitly asked for my GPA, but they did ask for my transcripts for every job or internship I’ve had. I never heard any GPA-related comments from the employers subsequently, but I’m not in in a very stat-obsessed field like investment banking or management consulting.</p>

<p>Maybe some companies are on to the inflation and stopped caring, or maybe the filter is more subtle at times?</p>

<p>Edit: I will admit that knowing GPA might be a deal-breaker, I made liberal use of every dirty trick available to make sure mine did not tank completely during a rather disastrous first university semester six years ago. Those withdrawn grades sure come in handy. ;)</p>

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<p>None asked for transcripts either. They just wanted to know you got your degree.</p>

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<p>I graduated 6 years ago and went into the defense industry, so either of those may skew my experiences, but my GPA (included on my resume) was mentioned during my interviews as having been a factor in getting those interviews, and my transcript was required between accepting the offer and reporting for work - the old “trust but verify” thing. romani, perpetual - did you and/or your friends include your GPA on resumes?</p>

<p>Interviewing is expensive for the company, and most get dozens or even hundreds of resumes and applications for every open spot - depending on the field, a simple scan for relevant courses and work experience may be enough to reduce the number of applicants to an interviewable level, in others things like GPA serve as a convenient filter.</p>

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<p>Oh, and going back to the original post, I agree that there are many problems with our system of college education, including most of the ones noted. I think that a majority of the problem lies with the fact that universities are run as businesses trying to sell their customer-students what those customer-students want rather than perhaps what they need, all while making a healthy profit (even if said profit goes into building funds or salaries rather than dividends).</p>

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<p>This will be good news for my current matriculant. :)</p>

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<p>Cosmic, I don’t know how many of them put their gpas on their resume but I know a handful definitely would not have.</p>

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<p>romanigypsyeyes,</p>

<p>Jobs with government agencies almost all request post-secondary transcripts during the application process.</p>

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<p>Yes…and? Most don’t work for government agencies. </p>

<p>And I just asked my coworkers… I work for the state… No need for transcripts from them either, even the new hires.</p>

<p>I’m not saying no one asks for transcripts, I’m just giving personal experiences.</p>

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<p>I’m curious if anyone has recent experience with this as a student with an engineering degree not going into finance (or parent of). I’ve been led to believe that their GPA is important in hiring for the first couple of jobs. For example, internships in college, and 1-2 jobs immediately following your degree.</p>

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<p>*almost always ask</p>

<p>Not almost all ask.</p>

<p>Sorry.</p>

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<p>I can’t imagine engineering graduates NOT being asked for their GPA. I really wouldn’t want a C student designing building structures for me. Ack!</p>

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deleted for privacy reasons

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<p>Okay, that’s what I thought. My son is a second year, doing well, and certainly not going to let off the gas if for some odd reason it suddenly wasn’t a factor (he’s just not built that way). Hearing that no one was being asked ran counter to what I understood so I wanted to make the distinction for e’school students. I would assume the same would be true for architecture, but that’s just a guess.</p>

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<p>My S was told early on at his college: GPA, GPA, GPA. </p>

<p>In other words, it is very important to keep the grades up for internship and job opportunities.</p>

<p>He’s an engineering major.</p>

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<p>I know GPA is big in engineering, finance, and some government jobs.</p>

<p>I just took issue with the statement that no one hires people with < 3.0</p>

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<p>This has been DD’s experience with public accounting, too. In her case, her high GPA made up for her lack of leadership ECs when she was interviewing for accounting internships. (She wasn’t much of a joiner…)</p>

<p>Not only did they want to know her GPA - once they offered her a full-time job after her internship concluded, they wanted to see her transcripts every quarter afterwards.</p>

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<p>Even when GPA is not required, employers may also verify claimed degrees and attendance.</p>

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<p>We go through this every year…for every poster that says their company requests GPA during the hiring process, someone else says their company doesn’t. For the record, my former Fortune 50 company did NOT request people’s GPAs from anyone during the hiring process although we did see plenty of college kids who put it prominently on the resume. We never paid much attention in HR because anyone could really put anything on a resume and the “knowledge-base” and fit would get vetted during the interview process. The takeaway is that “it depends.” If it’s a company that wants it they will ask or tell you. Some industries are required by law to verify degrees and attendance for the hiring process, so do comply with those requests. You will either e asked to submit at the time of application or HR will need it for your personnel file after you are hired.</p>