<p>Free article today......lots to contemplate.</p>
<p>Whatever. I'm still going to law school regardless of what this article says. And I know I'm not getting into Harvard or Yale. A plumber making more than a lawyer? Give me a break. Show me some hard stats about that instead of just some guy saying his plumber friend makes more than him. Maybe the guy saying his law degree is a waste is a guy who is incompetent and doesn't know what he is doing. A guy who barely made it through law school like it wasn't serious, didn't try to gain practical experience while there and just expected the degree itself to earn him huge money.</p>
<p>Here are some facts for you. About the number of LSAT exams administered.</p>
<p>Well, the article said that "guy who barley made it through law school" was in the top 3rd of his class. Likewise plumbers and electricians who run their own business are very well off. While some graduates of low tier law schools may find themselves with 100,000 dollars plus in debt and making only 30 thousand a year.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Whatever. I'm still going to law school regardless of what this article says. And I know I'm not getting into Harvard or Yale. A plumber making more than a lawyer? Give me a break. Show me some hard stats about that instead of just some guy saying his plumber friend makes more than him
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It is clearly true that the median lawyer makes more than the median plumber.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm#earnings</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos211.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos211.htm#earnings</a></p>
<p>
[quote]
Likewise plumbers and electricians who run their own business are very well off. While some graduates of low tier law schools may find themselves with 100,000 dollars plus in debt and making only 30 thousand a year.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't doubt that we can always find some plumbers and some electricians who make more money than some lawyers. Obviously you will always have some outliers in any statistical survey. For example, some college dropouts make far far more money than the vast majority of college graduates, simply because the ranks of college dropouts include people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. </p>
<p>But the bottom line is that the average lawyer makes significantly more than the average plumber or electrician. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos206.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos206.htm#earnings</a></p>
<p>also some law schools, yale for instance, offers a generous loan repayment assistant program.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Whatever. I'm still going to law school regardless of what this article says. And I know I'm not getting into Harvard or Yale. A plumber making more than a lawyer? Give me a break. Show me some hard stats about that instead of just some guy saying his plumber friend makes more than him. Maybe the guy saying his law degree is a waste is a guy who is incompetent and doesn't know what he is doing. A guy who barely made it through law school like it wasn't serious, didn't try to gain practical experience while there and just expected the degree itself to earn him huge money.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Guess what? Just about every single person who is currently a contract attorney reviewing documents all day said exactly this when they were applying to law school. It's amazing how cavalier and irresponsible people can be.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It is clearly true that the median lawyer makes more than the median plumber.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And it's also true that the median lawyer has infinitely more educational debt than the plumber, who in any event has been working for seven years by the time the lawyer even starts to earn anything. So if a new JD is earning the same hourly wage as the average plumber, they're obviously in a much worse financial position.</p>
<p>Yeah, and a lot of them who said that aren't contracting attorneys reviewing documents all day. Maybe those who are stuck doing contract work are the ones who didn't really work hard or stand out among their class. IF you don't have the prestige of a top school, you need to make up for that by working hard, getting involved, and getting experience and finishing in the top of your class. I'm not being irresponsible. My financial situation is worked out, I won't have a heavy burden of debt.</p>
<p>Chris, I just want to point out to you and to others here that there is never a guarantee that you will finish in the top of your class in law school, no matter how dedicated to the task you may be. Even if you get into the three top law schools in this country and decide to go to a second tier law school, there is still no guarantee that you will graduate at the top of your law school class.</p>
<p>Why? </p>
<p>First, the vast majority of students who go to law school are dedicated to the task. Rarely does someone blow off classes regularly or fail to hand in assignments when due. Rarely does a student fail to study an extraordinary number of hours for exams. Rarely does a student fail to take law school seriously. Every student at every law school is going to face some serious competition in their classes (which, by the way, are largely set to a strict curve, at least during the first year). </p>
<p>Second, there is no guarantee that you are going to "get it" right away. It takes a substantial number of law students a semester or two before they begin to really understand what is necessary to prepare for class (and what is unnecessary), how to write legal briefs (and other legal writing exercises) well and how to effectively study for and do well on exams. "Getting it" has little to do with intelligence or how well one did in undergrad. "Getting it" is akin to seeing the forest through the trees, while knowing how to identify each of the trees, knowing all of the scientific names for the trees and keeping abreast of all of the facts about how each tree grows.</p>
<p>Finally, law school exams can be quite random. In the first year of law school (where grades matter most), you sit for one final exam for each class and your grade on that final exam is the only component of your grade for the entire semester. There is no bonus for class participation (except to the extent it helps you to understand the material) and there are no extra credit opportunities. Each exam will typically last from three to five hours, and no one cares if you have the flu, if you haven't slept in days or if you never got around to reviewing that outline one last time. Even open book tests (which are not uncommon) generally require that you know the subject as if the book wasn't there, because the time pressure to get the test done will keep you moving with little time to look something up in a book. Sometimes, professors will throw questions at you that test some of the basic ideas that you learned in class, in which case the highest grades will typically take what was learned and go beyond that. Sometimes, though, professors will shoot you a curveball, throwing up a question that you never anticipated, studied for or feel that you learned. Ah, yes, the answer is probably somewhere in a footnote to a footnote to a case that you read in the second week of class, but you don't remember having read that footnote to the footnote under the pressure of the exam, so you just begin writing. I was not alone among first year students in feeling that some professors got so frustrated with grading these terribly long exams that they simply threw the exams up in the air and assigned grades based on where the exams fell. The difference between an A and a B (or a H and a P) can feel very random and inexplicable, so I wouldn't bet your entire law career on acing all of your exams -- it can happen, of course, but even the hardest working, most dedicated student may fail to achieve the highest grades.</p>
<p>Moreover, as much as one shouldn't assume that he or she will obtain one of those $160,000/year jobs upon graduation, one also shouldn't assume that they will graduate at the top of their class (or at least that their first year grades will be uniformly excellent).</p>
<p>I understand that completely, but I will still try to do my best if I don't go to one of the top top schools. But I think if you don't go to a top school and you work hard and finish in the top of your class (yes, it is hard to do that), and you gain good experience and you are involved in a lot of things, you can get a good paying job after law school. For instance, the firm Sullivan & Cromwell was brought up on this site in another thread I believe. They have really high starting salaries, and lately I have been seeing what law schools associates at different firms come from and I noticed S&C has one or two associates from the New York Law school, which I know is not a top school, and I'm not even sure if its even considered a tier 1 school. Yes, I know S&C has tons and tons of lawyers, and the percentages from lesser known schools are very low, but it just shows that you have a chance, even though it may be a slim one. Granted, you can't rely on those slim chances or be super hopeful about them, but theres always a chance I think.</p>
<p>Chris, you're right that there is always a chance. I do appreciate your optimism. I just hope that you keep yourself grounded in reality while hoping for the best.</p>
<p>Of course I am going to plan accordingly. I just want to follow my dream. I really want to be a lawyer. Hell, if I have to take temporary contract work for a while, so be it. It's not like with a law degree I will end up in a soup kitchen line or at some homeless shelter. I'm not saying success will come right away, but I am confident it will come eventually. It is important to make wise decisions about something like law school, considering it can be such a financial burden especially if you aren't making tons of money afterward, but for some one like me, who has already worked out the financial aspect of it and who really wants it, its a good choice.</p>
<p>Chris,</p>
<p>I think you're being ia little naive. Yes, some top law firms hire new grads from lower tier law schools and some of those grads aren't top of the class. But OFTEN--I'm not saying always or even usually, but OFTEN--there is a good business reason to do so. </p>
<p>Reading the NY Times wedding announcements is one of my guilty pleasures. Often I'll see one where Mr. or Ms. X who went to NYLaw or a similary ranked school is an associate at Big Prestigious Firm. Then I read the part where his/her dad or grandfather or stepparent is the CEO or general counsel of a major corporation. </p>
<p>If you can bring in a lot of fees, you can get a job at a major firm. Sometimes it's enough to be able to cause the firm to LOSE a major client.</p>
<p>I'm just saying that you shouldn't assume that because a NY Law School grad got hired by S&C it means that S&C will hire other NY Law School grads. There may be special circumstances that you are unaware of.</p>
<p>Jonri, I said that the chances are VERY LITTLE. How is that being naive? I never said that if you go to a lesser known school you still have a good chance of getting a huge starting salary firm job. I said you have a very slim chance, which is true. I never said just because they already hired from NYLS that they would definitely hire more from there. But there is still a chance. Am I banking my future on those tiny chances? No.</p>
<p><em>sigh</em></p>
<p>that article is depressing, lol.</p>
<p>My friend's D is a 2L at NYU. Interviews for next summer's internships are happening fast and furious. She went through 30+ interviews at school, had 17 call backs and now has 7 offers. Firms have also been wining and dining them. Yesterday she still went on a couple of interviews. I've been told the school won't let them hold so many offers at hand so others may have a go at those jobs. She also said nearly all her classmates have at least a few offers.</p>
<p>Feast for some and famine for others.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And it's also true that the median lawyer has infinitely more educational debt than the plumber, who in any event has been working for seven years by the time the lawyer even starts to earn anything. So if a new JD is earning the same hourly wage as the average plumber, they're obviously in a much worse financial position.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So what? Like I've said before, just because you have a lot of education and a lot of accompanying debt does not automatically entitle you to a good job. We shouldn't think otherwise.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So what? Like I've said before, just because you have a lot of education and a lot of accompanying debt does not automatically entitle you to a good job. We shouldn't think otherwise.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Nobody has said that even once. Just that comparing the salary of somebody with zero educational debt and somebody with $150K of debt is a pointless exercise.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Nobody has said that even once. Just that comparing the salary of somebody with zero educational debt and somebody with $150K of debt is a pointless exercise.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think it's an entirely point*ful* exercise. At the end of the day, the median lawyer makes much more than the median plumber - certainly by enough to cover the debt. </p>
<p>Besides, if debt is a big issue, there are plenty of things you can do about that. Go to a lesser-ranked law school that will give you a merit scholarship. Go to night school so that you can work and make money during the daytime. Nobody says that you have to carry 150k in debt.</p>
<p>The stats on lawyers always amuse me. One should really be looking at the stats of JDs, simply because there is no guarantee one will become a practicing lawyer. I highly doubt that median salary statistic would then look so favorable against other professional degrees (or even undergraduate degrees).</p>