<p>I know this is important for Caltech in the admissions process. Can it be done through essays alone, or does one have to have math- and science-related ECs?</p>
<p>It’s hard to demonstrate interest in a field without doing anything in it.</p>
<p>I’m actually wondering about that. Does Caltech expect international or national level awards and honors? Or maybe leadership and participation in science clubs? Does independent science research suffice?</p>
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<p>So should I save my money and not even bother applying? Will they take one look at my app and toss it, or will it just hurt my chances a bit?</p>
<p>Also, will they take into account how many opportunities a person has had? I suppose I’ve missed a couple opportunities I should have jumped on, but I’ve had far fewer than many others, since I come from a small humanities-oriented school.</p>
<p>If you want to go here and think it’s a good school for you, apply. I would say that if you have absolutely no math and science ECs than you would have a very hard time getting in, because it doesn’t jive with your essays saying that you have passion for math and science.</p>
<p>Dig deep–it doesn’t have to be USAMO participation, it can be simple things like “I built a radio” or “I self-studied AP x” or “I read papers”</p>
<p>If you really did nothing math and science related for four years of high school than I would guess you don’t have passion. But what’s probably more likely is that you’ve done a lot of little things that you should talk about. </p>
<p>Caltech will take into account the opportunities you’ve had.</p>
<p>I guess the issue I have is that passion can manifest itself in a variety of ways, some of which can be put on an application and some of which can’t. I mean, I like to spend time just thinking about math and science, but I can’t really write down “daydreams about math and science” as one of my ECs. I mess around with numbers and make up random math problems to solve for the fun of it and analyze everyday occurrences in terms of forces and acceleration and so on. Obviously, it’s better if it’s channeled into something more meaningful, but passion can exist even if it’s not directed into an organized activity. </p>
<p>I was involved in one math project for my school, but that’s it in terms of concrete activities. the school I was at in 9th and 10th grade had absolutely zero clubs and activities. The school I’m at right now only offers one or two math opportunities. I suppose I could have looked outside my school for opportunities or tried to start up something new at my school, but it just never occurred to me to do so.</p>
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<p>This is probably a foolish question, but does self-studying an SAT II count?</p>
<p>Thanks for all your input, by the way.</p>
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<p>I very much agree with you. I knew early on that mathematics was sort of my thing, but only in college did I really begin to love it in a special way, and participate in anything organized (like seminars). My only math activity, though, was reading math in my spare time. This is hardly meaningless, and actually let me make especially good use of some of my college years, because I somewhat knew what I was doing early. In other words, the main reason I was convinced I was passionate was that I read and fiddled for fun. </p>
<p>Maybe you’re sort of like this. I am not a Caltech student, and don’t know how Caltech would have viewed my own commitment to the subject I like, but something tells me that having organized activities helps. However, I wouldn’t try to force organized activities – that usually flops, and you waste time that you could’ve been doing something more meaningful with.</p>
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<p>This is one of the reasons I once suggested candidates should be interviewed, and discuss with the interviewers with legitimate technical language what they enjoy thinking about. If you’re right about this, then plenty of people for whom there may not even be an enjoyable math/science EC to realistically do may be completely ignored by Caltech! That is, if an essay discussing their passions would not have credibility without ECs. </p>
<p>But I think you mean to say that if someone wrote in an essay explicitly about math and science topics they’ve enjoyed reading about, this would jive well.</p>
<p>“If you’re right about this, then plenty of people for whom there may not even be an enjoyable math/science EC to realistically do may be completely ignored by Caltech!”</p>
<p>You’re absolutely right, these students are often ignored. If you put two students side by side and they both have fantastic essays and scores, and one has demonstrated better/more clearly their passion for math and science through their extracurriculars, that one will have a significant advantage. This is unfortunately the nature of applications–all colleges have to judge you on is the application, and if one application is weaker than another it is probably going to be less likely to assure admission. Furthermore, since Caltech has a ton of people applying every year with not only good scores and good essays but also strong demonstrated passion, it can generally select the people it views to be the best fit.</p>
<p>Interviews are a great idea in theory, but rarely work well in practice. I have spoken to interviewers for Rice and MIT and they have both said this.</p>
<p>(I am still only in high school and do not have any experience in this; everything I have written is only my impression from these forums)</p>
<p>I previously asked something along those lines, and someone who was admitted to Caltech (I forgot his name) had told me that he had no qualifications or awards, and the only thing he had done was an extra course in maths or physics outside the normal curriculum.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I’ve also heard (somewhere on these forums) that Caltech is verging on openly recruiting Intel/Siemens finalists, and that those competitions are very likely to get you acceptance (though I can’t vouch for the truth in that).</p>
<p>The impression I get from this is that, although you don’t necessarily need participation in high-profile science competitions to get in, it helps a LOT. But, thankfully, recognition in those competitions is given to only a handful of people, and I would expect that a significant amount will be going to big-name universities like MIT/Harvard/Princeton/Stanford (surprisingly, not many people have even HEARD of Caltech). So it would seem reasonable that doing a lot of small things (pursuing hobbies like making things, even pointless things, or multiplying random 6 digit-numbers in your head when you get bored, which really isn’t as hard as it sounds if you work your way up) should give you a realistic chance.</p>
<p>But to answer your question, I would assume that you should write your essay about something you have done AND list that as an extracurricular (unless I’m mistaken, you can even list hobbies - they don’t have to be ‘official’ ECs).</p>
<p>I apologize in advance for any ignorance or stupidity I have displayed, and for my excessive use of parentheses; hope this helps =).</p>
<p>The times have passed when people were doing science lying on sofas and philosophizing about the structure of the Universe. Nowadays, people judge you by the things you have actually done, in addition to the words you have spoken. As lizzardfire pointed out, if you do not have anything tangible on your resume to support your interest in math/science, the admissions committee will have a hard time choosing your application over someone’s with clearly demonstrated and supported passion for math/science. </p>
<p>I am not trying to prevent you from applying to Caltech: if you think you can convince the admission people that you are capable of handling hard coursework, despite not actually being exposed to any of that (if I understand correctly from your posts elsewhere, your school does not offer any AP classes? Correct me if I am wrong), then apply by all means. However, another perfectly acceptable course of action would be to go to a bigger school with many non-science oriented departments. That way, if you find out you are not into academia, you would be able to switch and not suffer 3-4 years. And if you are still passionate about science when you graduate, you would then actually be able to support your passion when applying to grad schools.</p>
<p>Remember, if you want to go into science/math, your undergraduate institution serves merely as means of getting into grad school.</p>
<p>I might have gone completely off-topic, but I really wanted to say it. So there :)</p>
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<p>I guess it is imaginable that it may be tough to get interviews to be a good part of the process. The unfortunate thing is that I don’t think any of us want good interviewers, we want people who’re really interested and committed to math and science, and people can just as well freeze in an interview for no apparent reason.</p>
<p>By what you’re saying though, it seems the one group of individuals who would be most adversely affected by this all are those into theoretical subjects. After all, generally it is most advisable for these students to just keep learning. When such individuals apply to graduate schools, they probably come from great institutions of learning, and their “learning” is conducted in a much more formal way and thus can be evaluated. But most of the learning that a high schooler enthusiast would do probably would be informal, although incredibly enriching. There is, of course, little I can think of that such students can do except write about their interests in an essay. I am willing to assert, however, that a mature statement of interest in theory should be given weight, and Caltech may be already giving such statements weight (only problem is, only a fraction of theorists, and not even necessarily the most successful ones, will have a mature statement at that naive stage). It’s not all that easy to fake something like that, and certainly not easier than it is to fake a lot of the other things the applications ask.</p>
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<p>Both getting into and kindling the desire to attend graduate school. One important factor in choosing an undergraduate school for those interested in doing higher studies eventually is whether or not the given school is the right environment for them to grow to love what they love more and more. I think that while we hear of all sorts of folks talking about how they chose not to attend so and so HYP school because “They hated how the campus looked, my goodness…” a lot of future researchers can just hate how a program is structured, or more positively, love how another is structured more. For instance, one reason to love Caltech is the close intellectual community it builds, where everyone has to learn something pretty nontrivial about several different fields in the core. Whatever gets one ticking, that is very important.</p>
<p>Would starting anything this late in the game make any difference?</p>
<p>well you could do it for fun</p>
<p>i can tell you math club was one of the best parts of high school</p>
<p>it might be hard to start something like that if you only have one year but you can always try and then future generations will have a math club :D</p>
<p>I’m not sure I understood this correctly.</p>
<p>Does taking math and physics courses at, say a community college or online, because those courses aren’t offered at your high school count as “tangible” demonstration of interest?</p>
<p>For example, I took AP Stats online and Cal 1 at a CC and plan to take Cal 2 and 3 and Phys 1 and 2 at the CC.</p>
<p>That probably is a good thing you have done for yourself, but I’m not sure if this is the sort of out of school involvement Caltech will look for. Perhaps it will just loop all this in under the category “school.” Perhaps not. Await Sir Lizzard and other knowledgeable posters I guess.</p>
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Yes. (assuming you’re going above and beyond normal high school courses)</p>
<p>In response to the other poster’s “is it too late to start now”?</p>
<p>It’s never too late to start anything. Go for it. “Math Club” doesn’t mean anything–but you might be able to get involved in a professor’s research at a university nearby, or build something cool, or teach yourself some subject and then find some way to demonstrate your knowledge of it… etc. Even if you don’t get in, if you truly love math and science you’ll just have fun doing that stuff anyway.</p>
<p>I’ll be starting a program this year where, in order to foster interest in math, will be having a local math competition with nearby schools that recently opened up.</p>
<p>Even though I’m doing this senior year, will adcoms still look on it favorably?</p>
<p>Sure. Any participation in math/science related hobbies is generally liked. I wouldn’t necessarily say that on its own it will make a huge difference in your application, but if it’s something you’re interested in, do it.</p>