Sounds like you are putting that ONLY in the phrase. Your post above proves my point. Do you not see how life as a person of color in this country is different from those of whites? Can you acknowledge that or do you deny it?
Obviously, doschicos. And the experiences of women, the disabled, the poor, the elderly , and others are all different, and some of those subsets have higher rates of suffering from crime, police brutality,domestic violence, drugs, and other dysfunction. That doesn’t mean I can’t emphasize our common humanity and shared stake in a peaceful future and resolving issues of injustice wherever they occur.MLK frequently focused on the ties that bind us as the basis for social justice, not those that divide us.
Ok, I know that I’ll regret weighing in, but here goes… I’ve always thought that the expression “black lives matter” was a very poor word choice by the organization. Much more effective would have been “black lives matter too.” Who would disagree with that (BLMT)? The focus is still kept on black lives, which is what the group desires, but it also doesn’t convey that other lives are less (or not) important. So, fundamentally, the whole debate about BLM comes down to an ill-conceived name. Whoever came up with it should have anticipated the criticism.
Yeah, in backwards world maybe…
@simba9 “Special rights”. That’s been traditionally something reserved to whites in this country.
“So, fundamentally, the whole debate about BLM comes down to an ill-conceived name. Whoever came up with it should have anticipated the criticism.”
Maybe that’s true in hindsight. Still, wouldn’t someone who recognizes the unique challenges faced by black people in this country, because racism both overt and more systemic exists, want to recognize the sentiment behind the words? How that racism that a significant portion of our population faces undermines their value and therefore tears at the fabric of our country? Would you not want to work towards mending those inequalities?
Spewing the rejoinder All Whites Matter when someone is saying Black Lives Matter does nothing towards trying to understand the issues and trying to connect with those who feel like second class citizens. All it does is throw up more walls. If you’re doing it just because you don’t think it was a good slogan and it should have included the word “too” (which is implied), you’re not helping at all. You’re just being a pissant. A lot of people are doing it for different and more unpleasant reasons and, yes, I feel it speaks to their own racism.
When you feel like uttering All Lives Matter, take a step back and think about why you are doing it? To what end? How are you helping? That is if you truly believe that black people face a more challenging road in this country…
I sincerely ask you to question your motivations for dismissing Black Lives Matter if you acknowledge that we have racism in this country and you recognize that the phrase implies TOO and not ONLY. Again, I think all people here have the intelligence to know that is the case. So what implores you to not respect that?
Back to our regularly scheduled topic before the mod closes this down…how should colleges respond to the increasing problems of disrupted speech on campus? Would requiring indoor venues with student id checks help so outsiders were kept at bay? Video recording of all protests to discourage assault? Freshman seminars mandatory on the constitution?
Maybe because of what roycroftmom is saying plus there are many segments of our society that face a challenging road and that have had far fewer generations of assimilation, refugees is a big one…into this country. And yes all lives matter. Everyone is important and deserve the same rights and privileges. Something I think the ACLU would agree with. This is just such nonsense and the optics are not good. If anything BLM needs to get their messaging straight because as a political strategy they are moving quickly toward disenfranchising themselves further through the antics and staging of pieces of their movement. Media attention can amplify the wrong things.
I think the issue has more to do with how BLM presents their agenda to the general public. To put it in your words, it’s an “optics” thing. I can’t remember the last time I saw a peaceful BLM protest… they are usually hateful, and the protestors act like a bunch of a-holes. That kind of behavior and crassness doesn’t win the hearts and minds of those you are trying persuade.
FWIW, I feel the same way towards other groups with similar, extremist views… neo-nazis, antifa, etc.
“I can’t remember the last time I saw a peaceful BLM protest… they are usually hateful, and the protestors act like a bunch of a-holes.”
Probably because the media being consumed focuses on the negative stuff so that is what you see. No fun to show peaceful demonstrations, unless you’re one that dislikes even peaceful demonstrations. Plenty of folks seem to have an issue with anyone, or at least those not in their political sphere, speaking out against anything these days, hence, all the backlash at the large Women’s March.
I’m not claiming to agree with the approach all BLM protests take but I do agree that they have a legitimate gripe and I can understand the frustration. Therefore, I’m not going to demean their slogan with an anti-slogan.
As a person of color, I really don’t. I have experienced only a small number of racial incidents in my life, or perhaps it is that I never really noticed that there were many other incidents. In any case, I never let it bother me.
Also, I grew up in a relatively poor and mostly white town. If you were to lecture the people from my hometown about “white privilege”, they would be either confused or very mad, and rightly so.
I am not implying that all people of color are as fortunate as I am. But much of the misfortune is due to economic circumstances, and that affects people of all races, but disproportionately affects people of color.
One thing to keep in mind is that 40-50 years ago, Martin Luther King and the Kent State protestors had lower approval ratings than our current president. But look at how we view them now.
Hear hear. I grew up poor in a single parent household in a rough and economically depressed part of town. I was once treated to a lecture on my white privilege by an African American child of two university professors who spent his entire life living in “neighborhoods with names.” The irony was completely lost on that individual.
I take serious issue with this sentiment. I believe that many people object to the slogan Black Lives Matter because it is exclusionary, and continues the evil process of defining people by their race rather than as individuals. And I would respectfully state that if in fact the slogan is meant to really mean “Black Lives Matter too” then you would not see the insane reaction to a phrase like “All Lives Matter”, since by your formulation that is exactly the same thing the BLM folks mean to say.
On the other hand, we have uncounted examples of BLM activists being explicitly exclusionary, which would appear to directly contradict your assertion. Like
https://www.leoweekly.com/2017/08/white-people/
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/real-time/Breitbart-calls-out-Black-Lives-Matter-Philly-for-blacks-only-meetings.html
wearyourvoicemag.com/identities/race/white-people-blacklivesmatter-protests
@doschicos “If you’re doing it just because you don’t think it was a good slogan and it should have included the word “too” (which is implied), you’re not helping at all. You’re just being a pissant.”
All that I did was point out that the group could have avoided a lot of conflict by adding the word “too.” Obviously, many people don’t think that it’s implied, hence, the distraction caused by the name choice. Btw, ad hominem attacks aren’t helpful to your cause. It doesn’t persuade anybody when you call them names (pissant, for instance).
“And I would respectfully state that if in fact the slogan is meant to really mean “Black Lives Matter too” then you would not see the insane reaction to a phrase like “All Lives Matter”, since by your formulation that is exactly the same thing the BLM folks mean to say.”
It most definitely is not the message or what they mean to say. Sorry you can’t see the difference.
"I grew up poor in a single parent household in a rough and economically depressed part of town. "
This isn’t about socioeconomic hardship. This is about systemic and overt racism. Two different matters. Calling attention to racism in our country is about just that. It’s not saying that socioeconomic differences are irrelevant. You’re conflating two separate things. As a poor white, I don’t deny that you faced hardships but that is different than the hardships faced by black people.
I’m glad hebeglebe feels he didn’t face discrimination. Based on previous conversations I know he is not black. I myself am white but I have family members who are both black and brown and I do see it through their eyes and experiences. I would say that the degree of pigmentation is a factor that plays a role.
@whatisyourquest My use of “you” is a collective you. You didn’t state that you used the term All Lives Matter so it wasn’t aimed at you specifically. I should have used “one”. Sorry if you felt I was attacking you personally. I stand by my opinion though that if one is purely using the ALM slogan because they don’t like how BLM is worded despite understanding the meaning implied that they are being unhelpful and frankly contemptible.
When neighbors tell me they are in a crisis situation, hoping for acknowledgement of the problem and help solving it, I am going to do my very best not to respond: "You aren’t special, and therefore shouldn’t expect help. What about me? I have problems, too. Hush while I tell you about my problems instead. "
adding: warbrain #30 - emphatically yes
Ta Ne-Hisi Coates, on Colbert the other night, gets into this idea of the evolution of a particular protest and re-writing the history of protest, for anyone interested who might not have seen it. My take-away from his remarks: protest will upsetting to some (or many) if it is to have any chance of creating change
Really? I might share my own crisis so they feel better to know they are not alone in suffering and maybe i have tips that will help in dealing with it and that i can empathize with their situation. In any event, the whole discussion seems like a distraction from the real underlying problem, which gets lost in the semantics. Kind of like an interesting commercial that leaves you wondering what the product was that was supposed to be advertised. In marketing, at least, it is helpful to avoid unnecessary distractions
I am confused. You directly stated that the word “too” should be implied. If you are now saying that the purpose of the movement is to draw special attention to the plight of black lives, then I probably would agree with you, even though I still think it is an ill considered mission given what I said above.
I agree that your point is about systematic racism. @hegebee was making a different point, to which I was responding.
This is precisely the converse of the point you assumedly are trying to assert. Unless you are admitting that you believe that some problems are important, and therefore those who identify with that particular group are entitled to lecture, while others are not, and therefore have nothing worthwhile to say. By the way, I have never found it terribly persuasive to “sneak” in additional “facts” in order to make the other side look silly. If you are confident in the logic of you position, you should be able to assert it without doing so.
Maybe Black Lives Matter should read “Black lives matter, too, you know, and I’m telling you this because right now we aren’t being treated like this country recognizes that and we feel like second class citizens because of it and we are really frustrated and angry because so many, many years go by and we’re STILL subjected to racism and we’re trying to call attention to that. Can you see it? Can you hear it? Are you willing to do something about it? Patience hasn’t worked. Talking calmly about hasn’t worked.”
That’s an awful lot to put on a piece of poster board.
^Sure it is. And people have the right to advocate for themselves as a distinct group if they feel it productive. My personal opinion tends more towards MLK and less towards Malcom X though, and I despair that we will ever solve any of the problems we currently face until we stop defining people based on their melanin level, or the existence of a y chromosome for that matter. So I object to the exclusionary nature of BLM as demonstrated by so many of their members statements. Too you that may be “throwing up walls” or “being a pissant”. I find that an unfortunate attitude, because there is no way that there is sufficient political capital in this country to effect the change many supporters of BLM claim to want with such a race conscious and exclusionary mind set.