Depressing thread

<p>Did you see this CC thread in "highschool life" about cheating? I found the thread incredibly disturbing, if not just plain sad. I suppose it's not even the statistics that bother me, but the logic of highschool students that see it as entirely acceptable and question those that have an issue with it. Maybe I'm just naive. </p>

<p>Lie, Cheat, Steal: High School ethics surveyed Started in High School Life by AKittka on Today
AP-In the past year, 30 percent of U.S. high school students have stolen from a store and 64 percent have cheated on a test, according to a new, large-scale survey suggesting that Americans are too apathetic about ethical standards.</p>

<p>I just read it. Actually, this particular thread is tame compared to some previous discussions I have read on CC forums. I have been appalled to learn that many, many kids see absolutely nothing wrong with cheating. I even knew a kid who stole an ACT test ... he truly didn't see why that would be considered cheating. </p>

<p>My son complained in 9th grade about a classmate who always cheated off him during math tests. S tried to cover his answers, but it was hard to do his work while keeping the paper covered. He was too uncomfortable to discuss it with the teacher - not that he should have had to, if the teacher had bothered paying attention. This was bad enough ... but what really put it over the top was when the teacher named the cheater as math student of the month! </p>

<p>I subbed in high school for 5 years, and I did my very best to keep cheating from occurring. Unfortunately, a number of the regular teachers did not bother. Students had tales of teachers who didn't look up from their computer the entire test period ... or who were oblivious to texting/talking/looking at neighbors' papers/etc. ... or who didn't say anything when kids had notes on their desks.</p>

<p>My son's school has actually instituted a new policy this year regarding cheating. His principal was aware that things were going on that shouldn't be. They have been using turnitin.com for a couple years, but some teachers were ignoring repeated infractions that showed up (like using big brothers paper from the previous year ...). In addition, there is increased awareness of cheating by staff, who have been trained in the importance of NOT allowing cheating to go on. The principal feels that this may save students from cheating in college, where the consequences can be very expensive. I think it's a great policy - the first infraction involves signing a contract outlining what will happen if there are subsequent infractions. So far, no one has had a second infraction. </p>

<p>I think our culture of cheating has been around awhile, though. We seem to have a number of leaders in the business world who have made millions by cheating. Their success just feeds the fire.</p>

<p>While I admit that cheating rates are high-there is no denying this, I don't believe that this automatically means that kids see nothing wrong with cheating.</p>

<p>I find it hard to believe to anyone does not know that cheating is wrong. At least at my school, there has been a big effort to stop it and that means a lot of papers and discussions on why you shouldn't do it.</p>

<p>I feel instead that kids know it is wrong in the back of their mind, but for whatever rationale that they decide to employ, they decide to cheat anyway.</p>

<p>This does not make cheating any better, I just feel like completely changing the impression of a whole generation because of some less-than-honest actions they take is a little extreme.</p>

<p>Not too long ago in one of my HS classes, we were discussing ideas about human nature, and a majority of the students said they believe people are essentially good, guided by an internal system of morals and ethics. Then I asked if that meant that, if I were suddenly called out of the room during a test, I could be confident that they would continue working on their own without cheating. They looked at me like I was nuts, but they all seemed to think that was "different."</p>

<p>Well, that's what happens when there's high pressure to succeed. Don't act like politicians, retail managers, corporate lobbyists, lawyers, car salesmen, factory manufacturers, or business dealers have never cheated before.</p>

<p>The real shame is that when no one is teaching them differently in HS, if they get to a college with a strict honor code like DD's school they can find themselves kicked out really fast. There was a thread earlier in the fall about that happening to someone who did not provide the correct attribution in a paper. It happened to one of DD's friends and she just did not report the one who was cheating. She only had to sit out a term instead of permanently but it did impact her. DD really appreciates the strict honor code since it allows her to take her tests outside the classroom for her accommodations and not have to fuss with a proctor. .</p>

<p>
[quote]
Don't act like politicians, retail managers, corporate lobbyists, lawyers, car salesmen, factory manufacturers, or business dealers have never cheated before.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Not the people on CC. LOL!</p>

<p>"Not too long ago in one of my HS classes, we were discussing ideas about human nature, and a majority of the students said they believe people are essentially good, guided by an internal system of morals and ethics. Then I asked if that meant that, if I were suddenly called out of the room during a test, I could be confident that they would continue working on their own without cheating. They looked at me like I was nuts, but they all seemed to think that was "different."</p>

<p>From first grade, we teach children incessantly that cooperation is good, cooperation is noble, cooperation is expected, cooperation is rewarded. Then we teach them that to cooperate, when something called a test comes along, it is called "cheating". I never would have learned to cheat had I not gone to school. My homeschooled kids didn't cheat - they wouldn't even have known, in an academic context, what it meant. </p>

<p>Maybe they think it is "different" because we have taught them it is different.</p>

<p>We reap what we sow.</p>

<p>I see your point and don't disagree, mini. But these students weren't really talking as much about getting answers from each other. They made comments more along the line that they thought most people would take advantage of the opportunity to pull out notes to look things up during a test. Such comments were generally prefaced with "I wouldn't do it, but I think a lot of people would." I mentioned that several of the colleges my daughter considered had honor codes with unproctored exams, and quite a few of my students were really skeptical about the possibility that students in those schools are really honoring the code. I told them that my impression, based on limited exposure, is that honor codes are taken seriously by students. I just thought it was interesting that my students didn't seem to think that a perceived tendency to cheat was inconsistent with a view of an essentially ethical character.</p>

<p>So, now tell me - if the point is to ensure that, in adulthood, students will feel adept in finding right answers - by looking at notes, going to the library, using the Internet, asking their friends - why SHOULDN'T it be ethical look things up during a test? Is it that we think that "what" students know is more important than their capacity for inquiry?</p>

<p>(I think we've made clear the answer is yes, and to our detriment.) There is such a thing as honor by working together with your friends when it really counts. Even the Godfather knew that.</p>

<p>^Nothing wrong with looking things up IF those are the understood rules and everyone is playing by the same rules (and thus grading is meaningful). I use open book exams at times, and sometimes take home exams. Other times it's closed book because I believe the work they put into studying for such an exam is valuable to what they will retain later and/or I have to evaluate each person's independently acquired knowledge or ability to apply it. It depends upon the course, the learned material, what I need to evaluate, and what I want them to get out of the exam process and the point of it. </p>

<p>It's when students opt to ignore the agreed upon rules everyone else is following, yet they are evaluated on the same output that its unethical.</p>

<p>"It's when students opt to ignore the agreed upon rules everyone else is following..."</p>

<p>Who AGREED upon them (or were they simply shoved down their throats), and why is it assumed that everyone else is following them when we know with certainty that they aren't? WHO understood these rules? Were they freely entered into? Or were students given mixed messages from the very day they entered kindergarten and told to share? </p>

<p>I don't think many students consider this an "ethical decision" any more because we've trained them that the rules are arbitrary, and never a matter of discussion, let alone negotiation or decision. </p>

<p>Your discussion about how YOU decided to use various forms of exams is valid - did you explain in advance to your students why you decided on each form? Respectully, did you notice that it was all about YOU? - "It depends upon the course (or the way YOU evaluate it), the learned material (that YOU assigned), "what I need to evaluate", "what I want them to get out of the exam process". Did you ask them about any of this? (I think not to is unethical when it comes to learning processes - and, yes, I have taught at the college level - although that's an entirely different discussion.)</p>

<p>To be fair, I think that the very conduct of what passes for high school education these days is "unethical", and especially so when we are dealing with so-called "good schools".</p>

<p>Only time I knew of my kid cheating was when I homeschooled. Left him to do assignments while his brother was in the hospital. Had him check his work. Found out later he didn't do most of it. Just enough to look like he did. Home schooled kids cheat too. </p>

<p>There are situations when collaborative learning and problem solving is not permitted. Test situations which do occur for college boards, grad school, prof school, med boards, bar exam, etc are set up to evaluate how much of what is asked an individual knows at his fingertips. When you write a paper, plagiarism can get you into a lot of trouble. There is value in teaching kids to do these activities according to the rules. </p>

<p>The problem is that a lot of the academic dishonesty is not something that stays in that area. There are a lot of kids, adults, who are not honest. They steal, cheat, lie in all aspects of life. Why are we surprised that it goes into academia as well?</p>

<p>Today, one of my 10th grade students submitted an essay. One of the sources on the Works Cited page was e-cheat.com </p>

<p>She thought there was nothing wrong with citing information off the site. Sigh.</p>

<p>I graduated from college in 1986, and I was a little older than the normal college student at the time.<br>
The school I graduated from has Vet School and a pre-vet major. Since I was in a science related field, most of my classes were with the pre-vet students. Consequently, as time went on I also had interactions with vet students.
I remember on several occasions hearing stories of how they were given "take-home" tests that were to be completed in their "home/lab" area but notes were not to be used. It was the honor system. I also remember hearing stories of lots of cheating. Interestingly enough, the non-cheaters would not tell on the cheaters, even though it made them quite angry. </p>

<p>Cheating has been around forever. Back in the day they just didn't do studies to see how much cheating was going on. But then back in the day we weren't pushed so much to achieve perfection either.
If cheating is at a high level now--parents have to blame themselves for pushing their kids so hard that they feel they have to get the best grades or they are losers.<br>
As a society we really need to mellow out.</p>

<p>Did any of you hear the interview -- was it yesterday -- on NPR with the guy who used to write term papers to be sold for a living? According to him, these were supposed to be "models" of research, and never submitted as papers. Yeah, well I'm sure that warning worked well. </p>

<p>He reported that sometimes students failed his papers because the teacher figured out it wasn't their work. And sometimes students deliberately made the paper look "dumber" by changing grammar and syntax so they wouldn't be caught .... And sometimes when he knew that students were submitting the papers as their own, he contacted the teachers or schools to rat them out. Say what?</p>

<p>I didn't hear that, but my school showed us a video that Nightline?(i'm pretty sure) did, and it had one guy who would charge for papers and write them to be submitted as the client's. He didn't rat them out, and made a lot of money off of it.</p>

<p>Back to the earlier post about "agreed" upon rules. Perhaps the poster did not use the most applicable word, but in any case the "agreed" upon rules are those that the system agrees upon, not each participant. Since when does anyone get to approve the rules of the game. If I miss my basketball shot, it's a do over if I say so? I don't like those silly taxes, why should I pay? I certainly did not agree. I didn't agree not to do various criminal acts, but a I follow the law anyway. </p>

<p>I find that society in general has a very cavalier attitude to rules. The rules are always for someone else, not for them. They get to break them because they have a "special" situation. Blame anyone you like, parents, competition, arbitrary tests, etc, but this is just rationalization for bad behavior. Yes, to save a life, you break the rules if necessary. To prevent a disaster or war, you break the rules if you must, but not to get a better grade in whatever...</p>

<p>I think that there are few saints among us, but the striving to do what is right is what sets some apart. In the school systems that I have observed, the more it is each man for himself, the more dysfunctional the entire enterprise. That's why those honor codes actually can contribute to a better environment for all, if applied.</p>

<p>"Who AGREED upon them (or were they simply shoved down their throats), and why is it assumed that everyone else is following them when we know with certainty that they aren't? WHO understood these rules? Were they freely entered into? Or were students given mixed messages from the very day they entered kindergarten and told to share?"</p>

<p>As I can hopefully describe below, I set the framework and upfront rules, but also often in consultation with the students. I also ensure they are followed by everyone (I have 2 proctors for my exams and no material on the desk if its closed book for example)- maybe I'm missing your question? Freely chosen rules? My syllabus is a contract (though in mutual agreement we may change it), I go through it on the first day and they have 3 weeks to opt out and take the course with someone else.</p>

<p>"Your discussion about how YOU decided to use various forms of exams is valid - did you explain in advance to your students why you decided on each form? Respectully, did you notice that it was all about YOU? - "It depends upon the course (or the way YOU evaluate it), the learned material (that YOU assigned), "what I need to evaluate", "what I want them to get out of the exam process". Did you ask them about any of this? (I think not to is unethical when it comes to learning processes - and, yes, I have taught at the college level - although that's an entirely different discussion.)"</p>

<p>Maybe I am ego-centric but I make no apologies about being the leader of my courses. it's what I'm paid to do, my students succeed and their ratings of my approach and my courses are very high. Would they learn better with a different approach? I'm open to that possibility but not trained to offer it.</p>

<p>I have a lot of say in what's valid since I have been trained in my area and pedagogy, I know what their board exams will require they will need to work in the profession, and I have 20 years of trial and error, and many thousands of students experiences and feedback to draw from. Do I know everything? Not at all! I'm constantly learning. But my insights and guidance are not worthless and why would I withhold that from my students and make them have to start from scratch every time?</p>

<p>I learn a huge amount from my students, especially in terms of pedagogy and how they can learn best. In terms of content, however, I know more than they can know about what knowledge and skill sets they need (actually have to have) to be qualified to work in their profession and at their stage.</p>

<p>I spend a huge amount of time telling them the reasons for everything. So I explain why I have chosen what I did for the readings, why we are covering a given topic, why we are doing a particular homework set, or the nature of an assignment, group work, an exam. Every single part of my syllabus from the outset, and as we go through it, is tied back to what I believe it will do for them and the logic behind it. It's very important actually for them to know. (here I go with the "I" again..but who are we kidding? even if my students were self-directed, it would be ME as professor who had to decide that approach...so I could say my students this and my students that...but behind it would be ME who set that environment in place). </p>

<p>Sometimes students will come back with better suggestions or modifications (one big benefit of explaining why you are doing something or the bigger goal rather than just imposing it). Sometimes if the whole class wants to, we do things differently- a different time of assessment, group rather than individual, open rather than closed book, no exam at all, a paper instead of an exam.. Other times we experiment..and I've tried all kinds of things....I've had students generate their own exam questions or exam format for example. It depends on so much. </p>

<p>And feedback twice a year in an anonymous form helps me to lead the next class better and make changes- THEY tell me what was useful, what was useless, what needs to change. I learn a lot from that and that goes into my database of 20 years experience that can help me help the next set of students. In a sense, the students DO direct my courses but its students over the course of many years, not each new set each time. </p>

<p>Maybe in the humanities, there is more room to explore, grow and learn and be student driven so they create both the process through an emergent form, and learn the content material at the same time. I would admire those that can do it, and I just don't have the training and experience myself to be that level of teacher. Also, I lack sufficient knowledge about how this could be done i some fields required confidence in knowledge and skillsets learned. How does a future class of accountants or surgeons direct their own learning and how do we ensure they each have acquired the necessary knowledge to not harm a company or patient? I might be missing something important, but I would not let a surgeon operate on me who directed their own education, choosing, in a cooperative group effort, what topics they wanted to cover and how they wanted to learn, without individual exams assessing knowledge.</p>

<p>"Who AGREED upon them (or were they simply shoved down their throats), and why is it assumed that everyone else is following them when we know with certainty that they aren't? WHO understood these rules? Were they freely entered into? Or were students given mixed messages from the very day they entered kindergarten and told to share?"</p>

<p>At the beginning of every class, from kinder on up, in my child's public school education, there was a syllabus sent home. From about 4th grade on up the parent's had to sign it and return it. From 5 or 6th on up the student also signed. In junior high and high school each teacher sends out a contract the first day of school that is very specific on what is being taught, how, and how the tests will be run. Different teachers test differently, and it is explicitly spelled out in these contracts. It is very clear what the teacher would consider cheating for their class. I suppose if you don't agree with what is being taught or how it is being taught you can change teachers, or schools, or home school. But no one can get away with saying they did not understand the rules.</p>