Desperate for final decision help

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Sorry if the topic title is a little dramatic. I'm just exhausted from trying to choose a college.</p>

<p>Summary: I'm going into engineering. I need to choose between Case Western Reserve University (a fairly "mainstream" research university), Ohio Northern University (a little-known but still good university), and a 3-2 engineering program that combines the best of both worlds. Case is expensive and Cleveland is worrisome, but it's a great school that employers recognize. ONU is cheaper and not very well-known, is in the middle of nowhere, and doesn't offer some appealing resources and services that Case does, but it is a good school and is safe and comfortable. The 3-2 program is almost impossibly expensive. Please offer me some advice.</p>

<p>I'm most likely going to do engineering (electrical as of now). Here are the schools from which I need to choose by May 1:</p>

<p>-Case Western Reserve University (in Cleveland, Ohio)
-Otterbein University (as part of a 3-2 engineering program)
-Ohio Northern University</p>

<p>I realize Otterbein and ONU are not very well-known. Otterbein is a liberal arts college of about 3,000 students in a fantastic suburb of Columbus, Ohio. ONU is a fairly comprehensive university of about 3,500 in a very small town in the middle of nowhere in northwest Ohio, though not too far from the city of Lima.</p>

<p>Here are my thoughts on Case Western Reserve University:
I like most things about it; size of student body, reputation, good faculty etc...However, I have uneasy feelings about Cleveland. I have never lived in a large city before, and I don't think Cleveland would be a very nice city to start with. I worry about sketchy neighborhoods near CWRU & threat of crime. I actually like cities in general, but I worry that Cleveland will make college especially strenuous over time. </p>

<p>Also, other drawbacks of the location: campus isn't very beautiful, it's a weird shape, and it's ingrained into the city (there's a busy, main road dividing the campus in half). Room and board is very expensive, and you don't even get air conditioned dorms til junior year. I hear it's a tough school, between Cleveland, bad weather, price, and really high workload.</p>

<p>Also of major concern is the cost. CWRU gave me a decent scholarship; but even so, I can expect to pay ~$125,000 after 4 years (w/o co-op).</p>

<p>Here are my thoughts on Ohio Northern University:
It's the opposite of CWRU. Pleasant, safe campus. Not as many of the resources that you can expect from a school like CWRU. It doesn't have the benefits, or the drawbacks, of a city. It is student-centered, rather than research-centered. The name probably isn't recognizable by employers outside of the mid west.</p>

<p>And, most importantly, ONU not only costs less than CWRU, but they gave me a bigger scholarship. By my calculations, I can expect to pay ~$100,000 after 4 years.</p>

<p>Here are my thoughts on the Otterbein 3-2 engineering program:
Otterbein's location is almost ideal. Very safe suburb of a good city. It has a 3-2 partnership with CWRU and Washington U in St. Louis. In the 3-2 program, you get a BA in physics from Otterbein after the 5 years. The 3-2 program also offers the possibility that I can sidestep Cleveland altogether and get my engineering degree from WUSTL; I wouldn't have been accepted to enter WUSTL as a freshman (trust me), but I think I could accrue a good resume throughout my 3 years at Otterbein and have a chance.</p>

<p>The MAJOR issue is the cost. Assuming I get no merit aid from whichever engineering school, I will end up paying ~$160,000 I think.</p>

<p>If you read all this, thank you. So what do you think? CWRU was my top choice until ONU gave me a great scholarship. Both schools are accredited all the same, but it's hard to give up your top choice cuz of money...</p>

<p>If you see no clear, best choice (because I sure don't!) then here's a final choice: I have also been accepted into Miami University in Oxford, Ohio, but it was sort of a safety.</p>

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<p>Case Western, especially if certain on EE. Is Miami Ohio a lot cheaper? If so, I would likely go there. </p>

<p>I’ve heard most kids don’t take advantage of a 3-2 program. WUSTL engineering isn’t all that great either.</p>

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<p>Miami U would be ~$85,000 for me, so the answer to your question is yes. I prefer a smaller college though; do you think it would be worth it? Miami U is literally 25% business students at the main campus. Probably not much of an engineering reputation.</p>

<p>I’ve heard mixed impressions of 3-2 programs: some very positive, some skeptical/negative. I like liberal arts tho, and the only thing more versatile than an EE degree is a physics degree along with it… there are TONS of 3-2 partnerships out there too.</p>

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<p>How much of the costs involved at each school would become debt at graduation?</p>

<p>Adding a physics degree won’t really add too much in terms of job and career prospects over just an EE degree.</p>

<p>You did not apply to The Ohio State University?</p>

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<p>Tough choice. If you want to do engineering, I believe CWRU is the best choice, despite the drawbacks you mention. But if you really don’t like it, choose ONU or Miami. I think the 3-2 option is too expensive.</p>

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<p>Nope on OSU, but I am admitted into Ohio U just cuz they made the app process effortless.</p>

<p>I’d say 90% of the costs will be debt, maybe a bit less… When I calculated the costs, I didn’t take into account miniscule external scholarships or work study. I do plan to have a job, but I have no college fund and not much help from my parent either.</p>

<p>Honestly I’m leaning to CWRU too, UCBChemEGrad. I went to an open house recently and it really wasn’t unpleasant at all, but its tough reputation can’t be totally wrong. Is it generally worth it to do an easier school for the sake of better grades & maybe happiness?</p>

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<p>Not for engineering…engineering employers dont care too much about GPA. They know it’s tough. Engineering is tough but people are helpful and collaborative. </p>

<p>If shooting for medical school, different story.</p>

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<p>Even $76,500 (90% of $85,000 for Miami University) debt would be risky. You may have a hard time getting that much in loans without your parents co-signing anyway. Some suggest not taking on more debt than a new graduate in your major would get as yearly pay. Other suggest more conservatively limiting debt to the subsidized Stafford loan limit (currently $23,000 for four years).</p>

<p>How much would Ohio University cost?</p>

<p>Would it be correct to assume that your parents are high enough income that you get little non-loan need-based financial aid, but are unable or unwilling to pay the expected family contribution assumed by college financial aid offices? Such a situation could have called for a different application list (looking for big merit scholarships), depending on your grades and test scores.</p>

<p>Realistically, the best of these choices now would be the cheapest one that offers an ABET-accredited engineering degree program in your major. Or consider whether going to community college and then transferring as a junior to The Ohio State University, Ohio University, or Miami University would cost less.</p>

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<p>As an Ohio resident and friend to current/past students at Otterbein, Case and Ohio Northern I would vote for Case Western. I realize you like the comfort of Otterbein but that is too expensive for that school. Cleveland isn’t that bad and I would rather be there than northwestern Ohio.</p>

<p>Miami is a fine option also. </p>

<p>Good luck to you!</p>

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<p>If your main concern about Case is the campus and surroundings and Cleveland, then I think you shouldn’t be worried. I grew in NYC and have visited Yale, Upenn, Johns Hopkins, Columbia and those schools have way more sketchy neighbors. Case’s neighbors were poor, but not ghettos. You probably still have to be aware of your surrounding, especially at night, but it’s not Harlem or the lower east side of NYC where I grew up! I think my s is going there this fall. Loved the campus, culture, and Cleveland.</p>

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<p>ucbalumnus, you are completely correct in all your assumptions. My EFC is $19,000, which my father does not consider to be viable. However, I won’t be taking out all the loans myself; my father will take out a PLUS loan, which I will pay back after college. So getting big enough loans is not a problem.</p>

<p>I only applied to schools in Ohio. Ohio U would cost ~$61,000. I don’t want to go there though. The community college route doesn’t seem great, because merit aid for transfer students is often sparse, so I doubt I would save enough money for it to be worth it.</p>

<p>Do you really think I should avoid debt so strongly? I have been told student loans as well as PLUS loans are quite reasonable as far as payment plans. My impression has been that even if I’m paying them off for 25 years, it won’t ruin my life. Besides, the engineer job placement rate at Case Western is apparently 98% within 6 months, and 88% at ONU. Would it be worth getting a weaker degree from Ohio U, even instead of Miami?</p>

<p>mspearl, thank you for the input. Otterbein gave me their best scholarship, but the 3-2 route does seem like less education for the money maybe.</p>

<p>jujumak, that’s interesting. University Circle (the district Case is in) is actually fantastic and has tons to offer. I’ve often thought that if Case and University Circle were picked up and moved into a nicer area, Case would be able to be as selective Carnegie Mellon, Emory, etc. Case has a really low yield rate (13%) which I assume is because of Cleveland’s reputation, but you’re probably right.</p>

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<p>^ sorry, I was confused about the prices… I still vote Case Western. Academically, for what you want, this is the best place. Plus, it will look great to employers beyond just Ohio.</p>

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<p>No, I think you understood the prices correctly, mspearl. Even though Otterbein gave me their best scholarship, the 3-2 program would still leave me with the most debt by far, compared to my other choices.</p>

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<p>Well, that effectively means that you would eventually have to pay back the entire amount, even if some would be informal to your father. (And if you are unable to pay back the money to your father, would you really feel good about leaving your father with lots of debt?)</p>

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<p>Your financial situation makes CWRU with $125,000 of mostly debt a much risker choice than Ohio University with $61,000 of mostly debt. Ohio University does have ABET accreditation in electrical engineering and other engineering subjects. Even $61,000 of mostly debt is still quite a bit.</p>

<p>You will likely have to be more aggressive in searching for and applying to non-local employers when seeking internships and post-graduation jobs when graduating from a less well known school. But you have to weigh that against significant added debt load at the more well known school.</p>

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<p>Bump.</p>

<p>ucbalumnus, I’m still skeptical about the debt issue… I mean, so many of the most prestigious schools are $40,000 private colleges. Isn’t it pretty much normal for people to walk away from these places with $100,000 of debt? (That’s an honest question, by the way. Not rhetorical) Not everyone who goes to these places can get a free ride. Yet these places are still great, prestigious schools that people want to go to. When I last visited Case Western for just a day, I talked to several students with lower scholarships than mine, but they still found Case to be a viable option. There are other schools more prestigious than Case that I’ve read about, which have higher average debts for graduates.</p>

<p>Plus, debt is only a risk if you are fairly uncertain about whether you’ll get a job. As long as you are able to make the payments on federal loans, the loans are very manageable and reasonable from what I understand. Plus, competition for internships and other valuable experiences might be higher at a big place like Ohio U.</p>

<p>I really appreciate your input, but do you truly believe it would be better for a student to choose Ohio U even over a place like Miami U, even if they are a good enough student to get into a place like CWRU?</p>

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<p>Do you really think I should avoid debt so strongly? I have been told student loans as well as PLUS loans are quite reasonable as far as payment plans. My impression has been that even if I’m paying them off for 25 years, it won’t ruin my life.</p>

<p>First of all, I see far too many students saying that their parents are going to borrow PLUS loans and they will pay them back after college. That is a risky proposition, IMO. Your PARENTS are the ones on the hook for the PLUS, and children have pretty much zero obligation to pay them back. Not to mention that the amount that students can borrow is limited for a reason - your after-college income is usually far smaller than students expect.</p>

<p>$100,000 borrowed over 4 years, if you get a graduated repayment plan of 30 years, will still be $650 a month. $650 a month for thirty years. Not only that, but you’ll pay more in interest than you originally borrowed. And even still, $650 is a lot per month for a new grad. Even if you get an entry level engineering job that pays $50,000 a year, after taxes we are still talking only about $3500 a month. Subtract student loans and you are down to $2,850, which will be something of a struggle to live on. $125,000 for Case over the same amount of time is $814 a month, so that brings your income down to about $2,700.</p>

<p>I mean, so many of the most prestigious schools are $40,000 private colleges. Isn’t it pretty much normal for people to walk away from these places with $100,000 of debt? (That’s an honest question, by the way. Not rhetorical</p>

<p>No. Only a very small percentage (I believe it’s less than 5%) of U.S. borrowers have over $100K in school debt. The national average is right around $30K.</p>

<p>Most people who go to prestigious schools come from full-pay families who can afford those prestigious schools. At the very, very tippy top schools, some fortunate families can get enough financial aid to cover their need and only need to borrow a small amount. The majority of college students may dream about going to these top schools but in the end attend public colleges nearby that they can commute to and afford with Direct loans and out of pocket money. The people you talked to who saw Case as a viable option may either have more family resources than you OR they may be in denial about their ability to repay loans after college.</p>

<p>Of course people want to go to prestigious schools, just like most people would love to drive a BMW or own an 8-bedroom house or get married in Paris if they could. But the average person doesn’t do these things because we can’t afford to. Likewise, the average person doesn’t go to Case Western or Yale or Harvard because they can’t afford to.</p>

<p>Plus, debt is only a risk if you are fairly uncertain about whether you’ll get a job. As long as you are able to make the payments on federal loans, the loans are very manageable and reasonable from what I understand.</p>

<p>But that’s the problem - with that much debt, you will have a very difficult time making the payments on the loans. Revisit the math from above.</p>

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<p>juillet, about loan repayment, I’m not getting the same numbers as you… $650 a month for 30 years would be $234,000. For a debt of $130,000, like the one I would have from Case Western, I would pay $361 a month for 30 years. Sure, that’s not much fun, but it’s manageable. And I would try to pay as much as I can spare each month, and try to increase the sizes of my payments over the years…</p>

<p>Plus, I’ll do a co-op wherever I go and earn some money that way, which will go directly towards tuition. Plus work study and external scholarships (and begging the school for a bigger grant?)</p>

<p>My father has made his own judgement of whether or not he should take out a PLUS loan to help me, so rest assured on that issue. Don’t get me wrong; the price of CWRU is definitely scary to me. But I don’t think there’s much anyone can say to convince me to go to Ohio U. I would just go to Miami U if money had to be the deciding factor.</p>

<p>If anyone would like to weigh in on the original topic (which of my college options seems best, and for what reason) I would certainly welcome that.</p>

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<p>otterbein!!! finish at washu sounds nice</p>

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<p>Average student loan debt at graduation (for the two thirds who have such debt) is around $25,000.</p>

<p>$100,000 of debt at graduation is unusually high. Even New York University, infamous around these forums for poor financial aid and high student debt, produces indebted graduates with an average of around $40,000 of debt (among the highest of non-profit universities).</p>

<p>Your family finances where your parents cannot even come close to paying the financial aid system’s notion of EFC puts you in a disadvantageous situation with respect to getting need-based financial aid. Many other students are not in this situation, so they will not graduate with that much debt due to getting better financial aid offers from the colleges. Many others who are in this situation do other things to save money like start at community college, put big merit scholarship money schools on their application lists, and/or do military service (enlist for GI Bill money after service plus financial aid no longer looks at parents for EFC, or apply to military service academies or ROTC scholarships).</p>

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<p>The subsidized Stafford loan limit is currently $23,000 for four years. That means that the rest will be higher interest loans, perhaps co-signed by your parents. Will they be willing to co-sign that much extra debt?</p>

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<p>If cost is equal, that is one thing. But your cost is not equal – that is the $64,000 (difference between CWRU and Ohio University) question here that you must ask yourself.</p>

<p>Here is another way to think about it: if you go to CWRU, you will be taking on $100,000 more debt than your classmates who have average student loan debt. After graduation, while they are buying their first houses, you will still be paying off a house size amount of additional student loan debt (average house price in Ohio is $100,000).</p>

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<p>When I applied to colleges, I had a 3.33 GPA and a 30 composite on the ACT. I’m going to graduate with honors, a 3.7 GPA, as well as 35 credit hours and a 4.0 GPA from the local Kent State branch from post-secondary classes. I did get big merit scholarships where I applied; in the case of both Otterbein and Ohio Northern U, I got the biggest scholarships they offer other than a free-ride. If I try to avoid above-average debt at all costs, and avoid the necessity of a PLUS, I’m literally going to have to go to a college that costs like $9,000 a year or something like that. I am the type of person who would go to a school like Case, who gets enough merit aid, and whose family is able to afford the rest. All of that is true, except my parent is not willing. It just seems like there should be a way for students like me to go to a school better than Ohio University.</p>

<p>But I just don’t know what to do. I’m still skeptical about the debt problems you raise. Like I said before, not everyone can get a free ride, or even any merit scholarship. If even Ohio University is risky for me, a person who got scholarships that cover more than half the tuition there, then how on earth does that school bring in 6,000 new freshmen each fall, the majority of which presumably receiving as much merit aid as me or less? Need-based aid, you say? What about the ones who don’t have need, in a situation like me? They surely would leave with more debt than direct-student loans can cover. What are students like that supposed to do?</p>

<p>Does the average debt you mention include PLUS loans? Because it seems like a lot of students would rely on PLUS loans as well, which is not technically a student loan strictly speaking.</p>

<p>Sorry if I seem upset. I realize now my situation is not good. But if I wanted to stay within the limits of merit aid plus strictly limited direct-student loans, I would end up a CWRU-worthy student commuting to a Kent State branch, studying “engineering technology,” day-dreaming of the things I could do with Case’s laser cutters and circuitboard printers, or even with Miami’s modest engineering facilities, competing for sparse internship opportunities, with the knowledge of a somewhat worrisome job-placement rate after graduation. It is just excruciating to imagine going to Ohio U when I’ve worked hard enough for CWRU.</p>