<p>We're having trouble choosing. What is the real difference? Which is better? Do employers favor one over the other? Does anyone have any insight other than what we've already read in the college guides?</p>
<p>Plainsman, I have the same question as you. Hopefully my post will bump the thread. Dickinson or Muhlenberg? Why?</p>
<p>D is a first-year at Muhlenberg and is quite happy with her experience. She's had some amazing opportunities already, including a seminar that will conclude this semester with a two-week research experience in environmental studies in Bangladesh.</p>
<p>Dickinson was also on her list, and she visited, though she ultimately didn't apply for reasons that aren't clear to me; she just didn't like the feel. I was really impressed by Dickinson. Part of Dickinson's branding is that they are strong in international experiences/global orientation. They run more of their own study abroad programs than peer institutions. </p>
<p>Academically, students at the two schools seem similar (they have similar benchmarks for # of students in the top 10% of the class; M's admit rate is lower than D's, but they admit a lot of EDs, which may account for part of it; D's reported standardized test scores are higher, but M is one of the only SAT-optional schools in the country to include the scores of nonsubmitting students, so all in all, it's a wash.)</p>
<p>Muhlenberg is getting close to the end of a major capital campaign and has built a state-of-the art science building and amazing, apartment-style housing for upper classmen. Other capital projects, including a major renovation to the student center are on the horizon. Muhlenberg used to brand itself as "The Caring College," and although they haven't used that motto for a very long time, there is a real sense of community and friendliness.</p>
<p>There is one palpable difference that's hard to pick up on from guidebooks or campus visits. Muhlenberg has some pre-professional majors in addition to the usual liberal arts majors. There are a significant number of students on campus studying in the (very strong) pre-law and pre-med programs, or majoring in business, accounting, or communications. Business and Communications, in fact, are two of the largest majors. The theater and dance department is also quite strong, and many of those students tend to view their experience as professional training. My sense is that this translates into a lot of students walking onto campus with career goals in mind, so you get a lot of kids who seem solid, grounded, goal-oriented, and hard working. (This actually put my D off a bit, since she is still undecided about major and thinks that all her friends have their entire lives planned.) Anyway, the vibe is a little different than a "straight" liberal arts college.</p>
<p>D chose to apply to Muhlenberg instead of Dickinson because of the science facilities (HUGE FACTOR), better diversity in the student body (from what she observed - just clicked better with the students at the 'berg), and felt that she could contribute more athletically (but that was not as important).</p>
<p>plainsman - does your child have a particular interest in an area of study? That might help posters address the question a bit better.</p>
<p>Well, she applied undecided at a lot of schools but put down Communications on her Muhlenberg app. </p>
<p>One thing I have to disagree with Rachacha about is diversity. Neither Dickinson nor Muhlenberg is great when it comes to the number of students on campus who are not white. Dickinson is somewhere around 4 percent African American. Muhlenberg is worse at 2.2 percent. Not much in the way of Hispanic or Asian students on either campus, or internationals, for that matter. Two very white bread, mostly New Jersey/Pennsylvania/New York kids. </p>
<p>On our visit, we all found Dickinson difficult to read. It didn't have a detectable "personality," which I found a bit disconcerting. So did my D and my wife. One problem we had was the fact that public streets cut right through the campus. I mean literally anybody could be driving through. It didn't feel sufficiently self-contained or protected from...well, anybody, including a Ted Bundy type who might decide to just walk right on in. It was like an urban school but set in a small town. It was almost strange in that way. It didn't feel like you were "on campus." It felt more like you were "in Carlisle." </p>
<p>Muhlenberg did feel self-contained. except for one through street (Chew Street, I think). It felt like you were on campus, albeit a very small campus. I also think the dining options at Muhlenberg had Dickinson's beat all to hell, and the building with all the workout equipment was impressive. They had new Precor equipment, the best. And, although we're not churchgoers, I was very impressed by the chapel at Muhlenberg.</p>
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One problem we had was the fact that public streets cut right through the campus. I mean literally anybody could be driving through.
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<p>plainsman, the street running throught campus is exactly the reason D gave for not applying to Dickinson!</p>
<p>bumping this thread and bookmarking....not enough feedback about either of these schools on CC.....</p>
<p>"very white bread, mostly New Jersey/Pennsylvania/New York kids. "</p>
<p>Plainsman, I fear that black enrollment of 2-3% is common among the PA schools, perhaps b/c they are more remote and less well-known than some of the NY/MA schools. Reviewing D's list, I see that we have dropped all the PA schools, in most cases b/c of low black enrollment; we've replaced them with midwestern schools - - this despite the fact that D wants to be fairly close to home.</p>
<p>foolishpleasure: What's wrong with Swarthmore? As hard as it is to get into, it has a double-digit black enrollment. It's quite the exception, I hear. You can't drop Swarthmore. Also, less prestigious but still decent schools like Drexel and Temple are in Philly and have significant black enrollments.</p>
<p>I used to live in the midwest, in MInnesota. Carlton, Macalester, St. Olaf, every school in Iowa, you're not going to find significant black enrollment. Ditto Wisconsin, and the Dakotas are a wasteland.</p>
<p>One Eastern PA LAC with respectable diversity numbers is Lafayette, 5% African-American, 5% Hispanic.</p>
<p>Plainsman, generally, the more competitive schools tend to have black enrollment of 6-8%. In fact, looking at the USN&WR list, of the top 20 school, I would bet that only a handful (CMC, Carleton, Grinnell, Mac) have black enrollment of less than 6% - - and even at those schools, black enrollment is probably 5%. </p>
<p>Drexel and Temple have large black enrollment at least in part b/c they are in Philly proper.</p>
<p>I agree that the midwest schools tend to do well with black enrollment (though I believe that St. Olaf and Lawrence each has black enrollment of closer to 2% - - not what I would call significant, but they are remote and don't have the draw of stronger schools like Carleton and Grinnell). Still, I have no idea why so many of the PA schools still have black enrollment you'd expect to find in ME or VT - - but Gettysburg has 5% black enrollment (I think), as do Dickinson and Villanova (used to be "Vanillanova" b/c it was so white).</p>
<p>D1 (who attends a top 20 LAC) didn't have to compromise on fit, location or academics to find a LAC w/ a critical mass of black students. D2's numbers are not as strong; she will have fewer choices and have to make some compromises.</p>
<p>foolishpleasure: From what I hear, Swarthmore's African American numbers are even better than 8%. I just don't know how they do it. Their numbers have to be better than HYPS and their admissions standards just about as tough. I don't know how Swarthmore does it. I really don't. </p>
<p>That's funny what you said about "Vanillanova." That's kind of how I feel about Lehigh right now, although they have a big push going on to try to change. </p>
<p>It's interesting how my D2 hasn't said word one about Lehigh in a couple of months. I think she's forgotten about Lehigh, especially after being admitted to Penn State-University Park.</p>
<p>My two Ds are opposite your's. My D1 was and is the party girl who slacked in high school with her grades, graduated in the middle of her class with no ECs, but studied and did well on the standardized tests. D2 is the dedicated student with the high GPA and ECs but less of ability to do well on the standardized tests. Somehow, D1 with no ECs, no APs or Honors courses, and in the 50th percentile of her class (below 3.0 gpa) got accepted at U. of Wiisconsin-Madison. </p>
<p>Sometimes I think all the angst about APs and ECs and the whole hyper competitive process is just so much baloney. That's why I encouraged my D2, despite embarrasingly low standardized test scores for HYPS caliber schools, to apply anyway to fancy schools like the Top 20 LACs and a couple of the Ivies, because you never know what might happen. My D1 is living proof how the admission process is more unpredictable than people would like to believe.</p>
<p>Well, as student with a strong gpa and SAT will do well, but sometimes a strong gpa OR strong standardized test scores will be enough for admission. Also, the odds are far more on your side applying to a large uni (UWisc) which admits a large class, as opposed to a LAC which may admit only 500 students/year.</p>
<p>Good luck to you and D2!</p>
<p>rodney - I am a pretty big proponent of Muhlenberg, but have no personal knowledge of Dickinson, so I don't feel like it's appropriate for me to comment on one vs. the other. </p>
<p>One option you might consider is to go on line and read the student newspapers... go back into the archives. I think it can tell you a lot about a campus, its activities, priorities and goals.</p>
<p>^^^ terwtt the newspaper archive is a great suggestion and something I used to do this regularly. I also checked the public safety archive reports.</p>
<p>My D is a Senior at Muhlenberg and she narrowed it down to these same schools. For personal reasons related to a sport she chose Muhlenberg, but we made a couple of trips to Dickinson, for an athletic open house and then again for an overnight. </p>
<p>In all fairness D’s cousin graduated from Muhlenberg in 2001, and is now a lawyer, and the ties to the school were established.</p>
<p>I can say without a doubt that Muhlenberg has an excellent reputation in the professional world in NJ. It is especially very well regarded by the Jewish community and people know that it has a great reputation for pre-med and pre- professional.</p>
<p>So given my niece’s personal experiences, as she clerked in two offices in southern and central NJ, as she interviewed with various firms, I can testify to the excellent reputation Muhlenberg has in NJ. Muhlenberg opened doors.
. </p>
<p>Would she have had the same responses with a Dickinson degree ? Perhaps, but I don’t think so.</p>
<p>Re: the street dissecting the campus. The President of the college discussed plans to close off that street, and the plans for rejuvenation and expansion (ala Penn’s development near it’s campus) FIVE years ago. He spoke at a Parent’s Weekend Sunday breakfast I attended, and it sounded like it would be completed within a year or so.
I am surprised to hear it was not implemented.</p>
<p>southjerseychessmom - that is the first I’ve heard about closing off Chew St. Really, where have I been (well, right now I’m in Mexico, but I have read all the correspondence that is sent to the house)? Seeing that my D spends so much time at the performing arts building, I would like this… it usually seems pretty safe crossing the street, but all it takes is one car unfamiliar with that street as it runs through campus, to go too fast and create an accident.</p>
<p>I should have been clearer— I was talking about the street cutting Dickinson College in half…not CHEW!! LOL, enjoy Mexico!</p>
<p>I think Chew Street IS the street that cuts Dickinson in half.</p>
<p>Nope…Chew is the street adjacent to most of the Muhlenberg campus, which you would cross to go to the library or Performing Arts building.</p>