Dickinson vs. Elon vs. Marist vs. Allegheny

College Search & Selection
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<p>My daughter has been accepted to all of the above (and also TCNJ, Rutgers, Ramapo w/merit, and Susquehanna w/merit), but likes the 4 schools listed in the title better.</p>

<p>She prefers a small to medium sized school, but doesn't want too small. She is uncertain about her major, but thinking about psychology. (Which may mean graduate school is in her future, since I don't think job possibilities are great for those with a BA in psych.) We live in NJ, and are full pay. We've told her that if she goes to a less expensive college, we would let her use the difference in cost from the most expensive college for graduate school someday. (Her older brother is at a "most expensive" college now.)</p>

<p>Dickinson is by far the most expensive. We would pay list price, with no merit aid. I think it is the academically strongest of the bunch. The distance from home (~3 hours) is good. (She would prefer to leave NJ, but not be too far away from home.) It feels more diverse than other schools, with a good number of international students, and we liked the international vibe. We all really liked the school more than expected on our visit, which was the very last college she visited. It has a more balanced male/female ratio than the other schools. It has the highest 4-yr graduation rate, highest freshman retention rate, biggest endowment of the schools. Job placement seems be quite good, according to info posted on the website about graduate outcomes.</p>

<p>Elon was an early favorite school, and we like how happy the students there seem to be. She likes the warmer weather, but doesn't like the larger distance from home or that the school is in the South. No merit aid here, which was a bit of a disappointment since her test scores were slightly above the 75th percentile, although her GPA isn't so high, because her HS seems to have much stricter grading than most. List price is a lot cheaper than at Dickinson. The campus is beautiful and seems to have better food options than any of the others. The ~5000 student population seems ideal. Not sure if the large Greek presence on campus will be a good thing or a bad thing. </p>

<p>Marist gave $10k/yr merit aid, ends up being a little bit cheaper than Elon. Is more selective than Elon, with a much lower acceptance rate, although slightly lower average test scores. Very pretty campus, and ~2 hour distance from home is good. I'm a bit worried about Marist's very high use of adjunct professors. Population didn't seem very diverse, and is very Catholic (formerly a Catholic school), which we saw as a slight negative. </p>

<p>Allegheny was a last minute application, and she was lured by the free application email. It is a bit smaller than she would like, further away from home than she would like (~7 hour drive), and colder than she would like. But they also gave $20k/yr in merit aid, making it much cheaper than the alternatives (and hardly more than the instate public options.) It seems very academically focused and strong. It requires all students to have both a major and minor. It doesn't offer Italian, which she wants to continue to study. We haven't visited yet, but plan to do so this spring.</p>

<p>We hadn't specifically gone looking for merit aid when selecting colleges to apply to, but yet she is very pleased to have gotten some merit aid, and would feel bad to turn it down, as she likes the idea of avoiding debt for graduate school someday. She won't have any debt for undergrad regardless of which school she picks. </p>

<p>Sorry for the long post. Any feedback?</p>

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<p>I may be able to help a little…I did a visit to Dickinson with my son as part of his search, and, as a graduate of Vassar, I know a little about Poughkeepsie (Marist). My son considered Dickinson as part of his “small, regional LAC” component…he eventually decided that (after going to a small private HS), he wanted a somewhat bigger school (his current mix is Miami, Richmond and Tulane). Both he an I were very impressed with Dickinson - the facilities are excellent, and it seems like there is a strong academic “feel” there. Of the three schools we did on that part of the search (Dickinson, F&M and Gettysburg), Dickinson definitely came out as #1. The main turnoff for him was Carlisle - the town did not do a lot for him…however, that may not matter to your daughter.</p>

<p>If you have visited Marist, then you probably have a feel for Poughkeepsie…probably similar to Dickinson in that the town is probably not much of a draw, but it is a nice campus near the Hudson River, and it is relatively easy to get to NYC, if that would be important to her (that proximity may also provide better intership opportunities). My son did initially consider Elon in his search, but it never got to the campus visit stage. While the campus seems very nice, he did not like the fact that the campus life is essentially the campus…there really isn’t much else close by.</p>

<p>From an academic standpoint, I think that Dickinson is clearly the best choice. Great facilities (including the obligatory new sciences buliding that was quite impressive), an excellent study abroad program (which was important to my son and may be important to your D if she would want to do a semester in Italy!) and - while I am sure your D can get a good education anywhere, I would think that the higher quality applicant pool versus the other schools would lead to a great learning experience for her.</p>

<p>I certainly understand the aid component to the equation…and I am a bit surprised that if your daughter had a good enough profile to get into Dickinson that she did not get anything from Elon (although my impression is that Elon has a pretty big % of its applicant pool from northeastern and mid-atlantic private schools…many of whom can write a full-ride check). If the fit is right for your daughter and you can swing the $$$, it would seem like Dickinson is her best choice. I would certainly write a full check for Dickinson over a full check for Elon…but that is just my opinion.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>I’m a student at CHS and take classes at Dickinson college. As a matter of fact, I’m typing this in one of their many computer labs before class starts in 15 minutes, hehe. It’s a great school. I took International Relations in the fall and International Organizational Behavior in the spring. The students are friendly and its not hard to strike up a conversation with someone you don’t know in class. The professors are very knowledgeable too. I’m an A, A- student in high school and the academics are challenging and do prepare you. I still remember a lot from my IR course in the fall but can’t remember what I did in units 1 to 3 in AP Calculus. The only downside is Carlisle itself. I’ve lived here for 6 years and there just isn’t much to do, but it’s not awful. The campus is really nice too.</p>

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<p>My exact same reaction.</p>

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<p>you can not go wrong with any of those 4 schools. it comes down to personal choice and money(if $$ matters)</p>

<p>maybe flip a coin between between Marist and Elon
then flip a coin between Dickinson and Allegheny</p>

<p>then flip between the two winners of the other two coin tosses and destiny awaits.</p>

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<p>First of all they are all fine schools, so congratulations!<br>
Second, I suggest that you sit down and think about the financial aspect. Even if you can afford the full freight at any of the schools, talk as a family about if you want to keep a fund for future graduate school and factor that in to any decision you make.<br>
Third, Up to you, but TCNJ seems to fit a lot of your daughter’s wish list and if grad school is a definite, it may be worth considering.
Fourth, when you consider the cost of Elon, be sure to account for additional travel costs if she will have to fly back and forth. As with the others, I’m surprised she didn’t get merit aid there if she got into Dickinson.
Lastly, I’d try to visit any contenders one more time, possibly during accepted students day or see if your daughter can shadow a student for a day or do an overnight at the school. I would never discount “gut feel” “excitement about a school” and “comfort level” as part of making the decision.</p>

<p>I looked at two of these schools with my children and can give you my quick impressions.
-I visited Dickinson with my D about two years ago. She wanted a small LAC so your D needs to decide if the school is large enough for her. It was a beautiful school with impressive facilities. There seemed to be a strong emphasis on a global education and study abroad. I agree that it is probably the highest academic institution of the group. For full disclosure, my D decided to attend another LAC, but after the schools we saw, Dickinson was one of only four schools that we all really liked. She has a friend there now who is very happy.
-I also saw Marist probably about six years ago when my son was looking at schools. He wanted a mid-sized university and Marist fit the bill. Again, the facilities were lovely and the school was beautiful. He also got merit aid which made us strongly consider the school but in the end he went somewhere else. He was not thrilled with the location and got the impression that the bar scene was the hub of social life there (which was not his thing). He was also turned off by the way they organize their housing lottery on some point system based on grades, activities etc. but I wonder if that was more the fault of out tour guide at the accepted students day who harped on these points through our whole tour than it was the system itself. There are vestiges of Marist being a Catholic school, but that didn’t bother him (in fact he ended up at a Jesuit school). But even so, we liked enough about it that he seriously considered it.</p>

<p>Good luck with the decision and congrats!</p>

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<p>OP, is it possible to contact the admissions office at Dickinson and let them know of your dilemma, specifically the $20k in merit aid Allegheny is offering your daughter? Just based on a quick look in the Fiske Guide, the schools aren’t that dissimilar in terms of the sizes of their student bodies and their median SAT scores, and Allegheny’s full cost is a lot lower than Dickinson’s too. Maybe they’d spot you a little merit aid? </p>

<p>I don’t think it hurts to inquire, especially if you let them know that Dickinson is your daughter’s clear favorite. Fiske says psychology is one of Dickinson’s strengths (Allegheny’s too) so they must know that many of their students need to save $$ for graduate school.</p>

<p>Good luck and do let us know what you end up choosing!</p>

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<p>OP, is it possible to contact the admissions office at Dickinson and let them know of your dilemma, specifically the $20k in merit aid Allegheny is offering your daughter? Just based on a quick look in the Fiske Guide, the schools aren’t that dissimilar in terms of the sizes of their student bodies and their median SAT scores, and Allegheny’s full cost is a lot lower than Dickinson’s too. Maybe they’d spot you a little merit aid? </p>

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<p>Definitely worth a shot. The only thing that I would say is that Allegheny is in a situation where, given the size of their endowment (which 1/3 the size of Dickinson’s), they really need to recruit higher-quality students to raise their profile and get into that positive-feedback loop where they can become a better landing place for full-pay quality students, IMO. I would also take a SLIGHT issue with the assertion that Allegheny and Dickinson are fully comparable schools…not that I am putting down Allegheny - it looks like a solid LAC - but I don’t think that college advisors would view them as fully comparable (I would place Allegheny in a class with, say, Muhlenberg and Ursinus, for example…all good schools, but I would think those 3 are a small step below, say, Dickinson/F&M/Gettysburg) which is probably a big part of why the OP’s daughter is getting $20K in aid from Allegheny.</p>

<p>The other thing that I don’t know is, depending on how solid your D’s profile is, the folks at Dickinson may be making the bet that - given that Dickinson appears to be, on paper at least, the highest-quality school that your D got into, that you will bite the bullet and write the check. I say that because I am in the EXACT same situation with my son…he is a good student…but he does not have the kind of profile that is getting Miami, Richmond and Tulane into a merit scholarship bidding war for him. He got into Miami EA, but without aid…and my guess is, if he gets into either Richmond (where he was deferred ED) or Tulane, it will be a case of - whichever school he chooses - I will be given the honor and privilege of writing a $50K check every year.</p>

<p>;-)</p>

<p>At the end of the day, I/we are lucky enough that we have the resources to write that check, and I want him in the best possible school that also fits what he is looking for in a college experience. Does that mean that if the OP’s daughter goes to Elon or Allegheny that it will be a materially worse academic experience that if she goes to Dickinson? Nope. But looking at the four schools in the OP’s universe, it makes sense to me that her D is getting merit aid from Allegheny and Marist, versus simply getting accepted at Dickinson (still don’t understand getting ZILCH from Elon).</p>

<p>But take the shot…it doesn’t hurt to ask!</p>

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<p>bebop, I absolutely agree Dickinson and Allegheny aren’t fully comparable, but Allegheny has its own inherent strengths (including membership in CTCL). And I definitely wouldn’t expect Dickinson to match Allegheny’s offer (for all the reasons you list), but maybe a few $ to sweeten the deal for a student who would be very appreciative? Could be wishful thinking on my part, but one can hope! :-)</p>

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<p>Lucie:</p>

<p>I completely agree that the OP should ask…even something like $5-7K a year could make a difference. And I would view $20K from Allegheny as WAY better than $10K from Marist (but I am a sucker for small LAC’s!).</p>

<p>Full disclosure - I wish that Dickinson would have stayed more in the mix for my son…I liked it that much…but by the same token, I am happy with the other schools on his short list, so it is no biggie to me. At the end of the day, it is all about where the student makes the best connection with his/her peers and the institution as a whole. And if the OP’s daughter takes that $20K a year from Allegheny and absolutely KILLS it there, she will probably still have some GREAT options for grad school…and $80K more in her pocket. But, if Dickinson is the best fit, and the $$$ can still work, I think she will have both a solid academic experience as well as - on the margin - a bachelor’s degree that should rep well wherever she goes.</p>

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<p>Thanks for all the feedback. </p>

<p>Re TCNJ, it does have a lot of good things going for it, but it does not have an equestrian club team, which is very important to D. (All of the listed schools do have teams.) She also thinks it is too close to home. She will have a lot of friends who go there, which has both good and bad aspects. </p>

<p>I will think about contacting Dickinson and asking about merit aid, but am not too hopeful, as they give merit aid to a relatively small number of students. I don’t remember the exact number, but I think it was in the 10-15% range, and D’s stats don’t put her in that range. Perhaps we would have better odds appealing to Elon about merit aid, as Marist is comparable. </p>

<p>Visiting schools again makes sense. Is it better to go on an accepted students day, or just a regular day? (Spring break would be a convenient time for us for visits.)</p>

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<p>One of my best friends and her DH both are Allegheny alums, and they have nothing but the highest praise for the school. It is isolated, however, though that can be part of what makes it a great place to go. I was impressed at the number of very good students in the Pittsburgh area who go there. It seems to me to get the cream of the crop out of those kids considering small LACs in that area like Westminister, W&J, Clarion, Slippery Rock Grove City and the such. </p>

<p>Elon has become very popular, and it 's a great deal, IMO, for the money, and again, the kids who have gone there seem to have loved it. </p>

<p>As Zobrward and Happy indicate, they are all great schools. Dickinson has the best name recognition and reputaion. I liked the school–DS considered it. But I would say I like the kids and families that have gone to Elon and Allegheny as a group more as peers for my kids. I don’t know much about Marist even though my son’s school has a lot of kids going there. A lot of Catholic high schoolers have that school on their lists. </p>

<p>Good luck on the choosing.</p>

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<p>sacchi -
-I understand why TCNJ is out of the picture now. </p>

<p>-And as for spring break visits, I understand the convenience and I would say that those visits are OK but they will be very crowded with juniors starting out on their college search so be aware of that. Also be sure the college is in session if you visit during break. Some schools offer a chance for accepted students to shadow a current student for a day (sit in on classes, eat in the cafeteria) or even do an overnight so I’d call admissions and make inquiries to see if that option is available (maybe she can do that over break). Both of my kids found that type of visit helpful when they had that opportunity (doing this type of visit took two schools out of the mix for my son, and solidified my daughter’s first choice as being the right fit). Also I generally think the accepted students days are good to attend (at my S’s school they did a great job and it sealed the deal for him) but as with everything it depends on the school and how they organize it. </p>

<p>-If the equestrian club is a big thing, perhaps she can meet with someone and see their facilities. My friend’s daughter is into that and she told me that some schools have the stable far from campus while other schools have it conveniently located so that may be a consideration.</p>

<p>-And while it never hurts to ask for merit aid, don’t hold your breath. We had the same situation with my S who didn’t get merit aid from one school we expected him to (given he got merit scholarships at more highly ranked places) but they wouldn’t budge. Still, it was worth the phone call before we tossed that school from consideration so we knew we left no stone unturned. </p>

<p>-Good luck and congratulations again on having such nice choices.</p>

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<p>Sorry, but membership in CTCL means absolutely nothing in regard to a school’s quality.</p>

<p>As I’ve pointed out several times here before on CC – CTCL.org is a lobbying and advocacy organization. Nothing about membership in CTCL denotes certification, accreditation or rating.</p>

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<p>I’m well aware that CTCL doesn’t denote “certification, accreditation or rating,” but that doesn’t mean it has no relevance. I’m certainly not recommending anyone choose a school based on its CTCL inclusion without doing any vetting on your own, but then again I’m not beholden to any lists. I find most of them helpful, though, in forming an opinion about a school. </p>

<p>Some people find “fit” a silly notion with regard to choosing a college; I think it’s insane NOT to consider fit. Doesn’t mean there’s just one perfect “soul match” school out there for your kid. Better to have a few great-fitting options to choose from (and net cost, for many families, is part of that fit), and the CTCL’s approach is worthwhile for many when considering fit.</p>

<p>Speaking of lists, Allegheny does fairly well on Washington Monthly’s rankings of LACs at #41 (Dickinson ranks #95). Again, the criteria behind the rankings is what’s most important, may or may not matter to discrete consumers of higher education, but I brought up the CTCL thing because it might be something OP wants to mention if she asks Dickinson to reconsider awarding any merit to her DD.</p>

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<p>If TCNJ is that close to home, couldn’t she keep riding at her home stable?</p>

<p>I agree that you have nothing to lose by calling and asking various schools if they can improve the award. Elon, especially, might sweeten things a little.</p>

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<p>It seems to me that CTCL is an attempt for the member schools (mostly good-to-excellent LAC’s) to affiliate in such a way to collectively raise their profile…although, at the end of the day, the best way to raise your profile is to have the endowment/scholarship money to attract a better pool of applicants over time. For example, the University of Richmond (where my son was deferred ED) has been rocketing up the rankings…their applicant pool has never been stronger, they had a miniscule 31% admit rate last year, and you can bet that their $1.9 BILLION endowment fund (which is larger than many state universities and allows them to be fully need-blind in admissions) has a lot to do with that. </p>

<p>Several of the schools on the CTCL list have very strong applicant pool profiles…although it is interesting that many of them are also admitting 60 to 70% of their applicants (if not more). For now, these schools are still able to keep their applicant profiles strong…but as the price of college continues to rise, it will be increasingly important for these schools to attract quality candidates - especially if they are not higher-profile household names.</p>

<p>While my son and I were very impressed with Dickinson, I am sure that if we went to Rhodes or Reed or several of the other colleges on the CTCL list, we would have been equally impressed. However, because Dickinson is a well-known commodity (as well as a really good school), it still has the ability to 1) have a 25-75 SAT pool at 1228-1360; 2) an ability to have a full-price tuition ticket of $45,600 (which at least some people pay full boat and others pay a significant chunk of) and 3) a 40% admissions rate. </p>

<p>For many of the CTCL schools, the issue is not whether they would LOVE to have those kind of metrics (they obviously would), but how can they maintain and even potentially grow their metrics as the cost of a quality liberal arts education continues to rise?</p>

<p>Fron a VALUE standpoint, it is probably true that getting $20K a year from one of these CTCL schools (like Allegheny) is a better move than paying full ticket at Dickinson. However, at the end of the day, Allegheny gave that money to OP’s daughter for a reason - that from a business perspective, they NEED to do it. It is up to the OP and her daughter to decide whether the trade off is worth it…not only in terms of the quality of the education and the life experience, but also the value of the brand name as it relates to graduate schools, alumni networks and getting a job in her field of interest.</p>

<p>It definitely sucks to have to view it that way, but unfortunately that is the state of higher education in our country right now…and unless you have unlimited resources, that has to be a part of the decision-making process, IMO.</p>

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<p>Marist College is a private liberal arts college not a Catholic school. (but formerly a Catholic school) OP, do you just mean that there just seem to be a large population of Catholics that go there? Just wondering as my daughter was also accepted there and its in her top 4 as well. We are going to visit during the accepted students day on April 13 to see if this is one she keeps on the list or crosses it off.</p>

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<p>^^^^ I visited Marist years ago with my S. I would absolutely keep the school on your list. The vestiges of it being a Catholic institution that I noticed offhand were the presence of a church on campus, an active campus ministry for those who are interested, and that students have to take a religion or philosophy class as part of the curriculum. Marist is an independent institution at this point, not affiliated with any religious order. It is a lovely school so I would go to accepted students day, ask any questions you want, you can even ask directly if religion still plays a role on campus, and see if it is a good fit for your D.</p>

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Yes, I meant that there is a large population of Catholics that go there. I don’t remember the exact number, but it was well more than half I think. (Not that this in inherently a bad thing, D is just accustomed to being in a more diverse environment.) We realize that it was once Catholic-affiliated, but no longer is. </p>

<p>I wouldn’t call Marist a LAC, however, despite having “College” in its name. US News has it in the Regional University category. A lot of its majors are outside the liberal arts - business, communications, fashion, etc.</p>