<p>for those who got full-rides to U of Chicago, could you please post or PM your stats and ECs? I am truly IN LOVE w/ Chicago, I would do anything to go, but I simply cant w/o a scholarship. Thanks very much.</p>
<p>"I'm very curious as to how those of you whose kids went for the merit money convinced them to be so financially sensitive. "</p>
<p>From the time that our boys were young, my husband and I told them that they would have to pay for part of the costs of their education. We believe it's important for students to have a financial stake in their education. Both my husband and I had to do this ourselves.</p>
<p>My older S, a brilliant guy who has always hated school, turned down 3 first tier colleges (including one offering merit aid) to go to a second tier that gave him a virtually full ride. The second tier was his second choice school. Despite his brains, S had chosen his colleges based on reasons that had nothing to do with academics. He is a big sports fan and wanted a big sports school.</p>
<p>Despite having scores and a tough h.s. curriculum that put him at the top of entering freshmen and also got him into the school's honors program, S essentially flunked out. He loved the college's sports teams, academic curriculars, and liked the city and the weather. He has no regrets about turning down the other colleges.</p>
<p>If we had paid to send him to the top 20 expensive private school that he had gotten into, I would be really angry now that we had thrown our money away. Given his attitude, I think that if he had gone to a better college, he still would have managed to skip classes and flunk out.</p>
<p>My younger S is a junior who likes school and who values things like small classes and interaction with teachers. With the help of CC folks, I have identified a nice liberal arts college that is likely to accept him and to give him enough aid that we can afford to send him there. We plan to visit it in the spring, and I anticipate he'll find it a good fit.</p>
<p>His first choice school is a top 25 known for excellence in teaching where he's likely to get an acceptance, but is not likely to get the kind of aid we'd need, even if he takes out loans.</p>
<p>He could have a free ride to our states' public universities, but since he doesn't want large classes, Greek life, etc., he probably won't even apply.</p>
<p>Originaloog, thanks for the information. Pretty much same thing happened to us with the Rensselaer Medal, which may be one of the best kept secrets in scholarship money for engineering (aside from this board, anyway). We went to an open house at RPI and it was mentioned. Went back to the guidance counselor and asked about it; turned out our HS had not recommended anyone for it in years. Our son is up there in math and science but not #1, but certainly met the scholastic and extracurricular criteria for being nominated and the guidance department gladly did so (and now promises, after my prompting, to make the Medal availability more known to the next Junior class because I'm sure someone could use it). He's now very up on RPI and we're hoping for more aid; possibly leadership scholarship, although I cannot seem to figure out what their criteria is for assigning that is; cannot seem to find that information anyplace. He's already gotten into Binghamton early action for Engineering school but prefers RPI and will probably go there. The school is just a great fit for him as a person, distance wise from home, curriculum wise, etc.</p>
<p>As for the finances question, he also loves Bucknell. We are comfortable, but not that comfortable that we're willing to spend $40K for Bucknell (as they give virtually no merit money, and we don't qualify for need based) vs. $25K for RPI, with possibly more to come. My son understands this, as he has from the outset, and we've always told him if he really wants a more expensive school there are always student loans and he can be responsible. We're fortunate that we have a pragmatic kid with a good head on his shoulders who appreciates the value of money and really understands where we are coming from, especially with the thought of possible graduate school costing money at some point.</p>
<p>It sounds like quite a few kids are very understanding of their parents' financial concerns. Also, for those planning to attend graduate school, a huge financial commitment to undergrad expenses could be quite impractical. </p>
<p>It's probably easy for very bright kids to latch on to dreams of big-name schools that don't offer merit aid. I know a lot of people -- even the counselors at our high school -- don't understand that a number of outstanding schools don't offer it. My daughter was always hearing some version of, "With your grades, you can go anywhere you want to go for free." Whenever she tried to say that wasn't the case, she would get responses like, "Well, my neighbor's son got a full merit scholarship to Yale." </p>
<p>I truly believe the only way to deal with this issue is to have a heart-to-heart talk about finances before applications are completed and a school that does not offer merit aid becomes the big dream. By the way, the schools themselves don't help with their vague promises of, "We will do everything we can to make it financially possible for accepted students to attend." We knew several outstanding students with nationally recognized achievements who believed that last year. They were convinced that their stats put them ahead of the crowd and that schools that did not offer merit aid would make exceptions in their cases. That didn't happen, of course, and at least a few of them wished they had focused more on schools that did offer merit aid. </p>
<p>Also, for sweetdreams, I am technologically handicapped and can't figure out the PM thing. E-mail me at Sillystring7 on msn.com and I'll be glad to chat with you.</p>
<p>The private school my daughter had #1 on her list met 100% of need. Schools that had merit ( that she was eligible for) didn't meet 100% of EFC, although their overall price was lower. Since we knew that need could be met by any combination of loans/grants/workstudy, we tried not to get our hopes up. Happily however the acceptance letter came at same time as aid offer and it brought final cost in line with the public instate schools, (which frankly didn't offer much merit, and our EFC was too high to be eligible for need aid)
EFC of course is the colleges idea of what you can afford, not the parents. Still some schools like Colgate have lots of discounts and merit aid within need based grants that can bring the total cost way way down particularly if income is less than $100,000.</p>
<p>Yulsie states, "The basic questions that I'm wrestling with, in advance of knowing the final landscape of choices, are these: 1) 'what is the overall lifetime value (tangible and intangible) of an exceptional educational experience versus the cost impacts' 2) 'how much is it worth to you (the parent) to assist your child in achieving an optimal education that will fully support development of his intellectual potential?' and 3) the underlying question, i.e., 'what is the God's-eye perspective from which you (the parent) should make (your part of) this decision?"</p>
<p>Yulsie, I did get some chuckles with the colorful language of your post but I do take exception with some of the points and/or assumptions you make but then again I am often time the contrarian here at CC. For sake of clarity I do a point by point reply.</p>
<p>1) "what is the overall lifetime value (tangible and intangible) of an exceptional educational experience versus the cost impacts". I do not think that there is necessarily any relationship between tangible or intangible educational experience and cost. The key word is necessarily. I speak from some experience here, attending Ohio State as an undergrad and Cornell as a grad student. Academically, OSU prepared me very well and I had no difficulty whatsoever with my grad school coursework. Being from upstate NY, I had two golfing buddies that went to Cornell in engineering also. Frosh we used the same calc(Fisher&Zeber) and physics(Halliday&Resnick) texts and covering roughly the same amount of material. In chem we had a primary text(Mahan) and a simpler supplemental text(Sienko and Plane). At Cornell they used the simpler supplemental. The 5 year engineering curriculum and the magnificent course catalogue allowed me to take electives like cybernetics, Serbo-Croatian lit, medevil & rennaisance music, 20th century music, urban planning, The Americn Dilemma with Gunnar Myrdal, metallurgy of ferrous metals, computer programming(Fortran IV)and power EE lab(for non-EE's). The intangibles? Having Bruce Valanch and others on my dorm floor frosh year solving the world's problems til the wee hours, working stage crew for the world premiere of a Jerome Lawrence play, free recitals by Ralph kirkpatrick, Earl Wild and others, pickup b'ball game with NBA'er Jim Cleamons, Southberg, "The Bosco's" physics 3 study group, senior transportation project "Team RB'S" field trip from hell, UM in the "Shoe", our ASCE student chapter, the CE student-faculty b'ball games, inner city tutoring, Kent State and my brief flirtation with Sergei Nechayev and on and on. The point being, amd you probably never thought I's get to it, a wonderful educational and intellectually stimulating experience can be had at hundreds of colleges if the individual student merely seeks them out. Expenditure of dollars is not necessary.</p>
<p>2) "how much is it worth to you (the parent) to assist your child in achieving an optimal education that will fully support development of his intellectual potential?" Our son knew the groundrules going in. Tuition was his baby and he would have been able to swing the deal at any college, albeit with more or less financial pain depending. Rather than $'s, the parents' challenge is to help their children understand not only the value, but the joy of learning be it in the classroom or out. Some get it, some don't and there is little we can then do about it. Therefore for some the optimal education would be a Yale, for others a vocational trade school, and for most something in between. Again, totally independent of money.</p>
<p>3) "the underlying question, i.e., 'what is the God's-eye perspective from which you (the parent) should make (your part of) this decision?" Simple, to listen to our children and using our "wisdom" to discern what it will take to gently guide our children toward a happy and fulfilling life. I think too many of our children have an unrealistic sense of entitlement which is not their fault but ours as parents. They will soon find out that for most, life is all about making difficult compromises. Better that they learn this sooner rather than later. In this and similar areas, we are their teachers and if we fail they will be negatively impacted. What it means to be a person of faith, parents'responsibility. I don't know whether to laugh or cry about the "prayer in school" issue. We have taught our S that he can pray anywhere and at any time. Concerned about a classmate, pray for him. That test, pray for calmness.</p>
<p>Well you get the point. As parents we have an awesome task and it ain't about the money.</p>
<p>I think everyone's advice here is good but the fact of the matter is it really depends on the financial aid package that's being offered. You may find out the amount of the free ride and the financial aid package being offered at the more prestigeous school may not differ that much. You can never make a decision based on scholarships until you see what the schools are willing to offer.</p>
<p>Mom55:</p>
<p>How does your nephew like TCNJ? My d can go there for free. She was deferred at Princeton, and is applying ND, JHU, BC, and some others.</p>
<p>We will probably not get any financial $ from any of those schools....so we will go into big time money problems (though we would glady pay the Princeton bill). </p>
<p>So..........I was just wondering how an actual student at TCNJ really felt.</p>
<p>~Yulsie~
I believe the most important words in your post occur in the very first line: Projecting and probable. I can relate to what you are going through. Last year, my S was going through the app process and I could see the cosmos starting to align in a certain way: There would be some significant merit awards, some less significant awards, and some non-merit schools with varying degrees of financial assistance (differing EFC's, including ZERO financial assistance offers; differing percentages of loans). Given these circumstances and my own nature (I'm no philosopher, but I was a college english major -- emphasis on European existentialism and various and sundry forms of angst), I spent considerable energy in attempting to figure everything out. My advice? My tales from the front? I could be light and trite and quote Bobby McFerrin: "Don't worry; be happy." Or, I could advise you to take the lead of our august Supreme Court and refuse to render any "Advisory Opinion." In all seriousness, your post clearly indicates that you know the issues, you understand the landscape, and you're fully capable of tallying the pros and cons. But, let's get back to that "projecting" and "probable" thing. You don't know, not yet anyway, how these variables will play out. Consequently, even if you were to somehow find the magic formula and figure everything out today, you'll find that come April the precise contours of your problem will be dramatically different. This being the case, I'd urge you to take comfort in the fact that you are equipped to deal with the variables, while simultaneously convincing yourself to table ALL analysis until it actually matters. Refuse to render that advisory opinion -- it's not yet ripe. I actually surprised myself with how easy it was to perform this mental sleight of hand. And why not -- if you can do this, it certainly reduces your stress. Then, when the facts and figures are ALL in, then you have the impetus and the energy to make actual decisions based on actual circumstances. In our case, it really turned out unexpectedly easy -- my S's top choice was the school that offered the BEST merit aid. All of our internal debates about ranking schools versus ranking packages would have been a totally meaningless experience. I'm clearly NOT saying you don't think about these issues at all before April -- but you limit your thoughts to very generalized understandings of the issues at play -- which you have already done. So, if possible, you can now "Don't worry; be happy."</p>
<p>MommyPain, do not go into big time money problems. You can read originaloog's post above yours for a few reasons. I hope your daughter has applied to a few schools that are in your budget.</p>
<p>Hmmmm, not having read all of the posts here, I may have missed some key points. Those who make the case for going for the $$$ make a good point and I'm sure there is some validity to it. However, why then do people spend time and money to visit campuses to find the right fit? If ultimately we reject the college with the right fit for the college that gives the most aid, why not go all the way and save the money that is entailed in visiting colleges? Seems like a good spreadsheet evaluation is all that is needed in picking colleges. What am I missing?</p>
<p>Maybe the good fit factor didn't overtake the money factor.</p>
<p>I think the idea for people when money is an issue is to find the best fit that is affordable. Most students will find tons of colleges that fit.
We read about choosing reaches, matches and safeties. Many of us should be choosing financial safeties, financial matches, and financial reaches. Financial reaches being schools where we may get enough aid to make it work. Financial safeties would be schools we definitely know we can afford.</p>
<p>hmm...does anyone know how many people take those full-ride National Merit Awards?</p>
<p>"I truly believe the only way to deal with this issue is to have a heart-to-heart talk about finances before applications are completed and a school that does not offer merit aid becomes the big dream. "</p>
<p>I agree, and this needs to be done well before -- as in years before -- the child applies to college. This is a big help in preventing a student from falling in love with a college that's unaffordable.</p>
<p>If one is, for instance, in the category of parents whose kids won't qualify for much need based aid, and if one knows that paying what the college thinks is affordable will hurt too much to allow one's kid to take on such an option, one's kid can be steered away early from places like HPYS. The exception would be the brilliant, talented kids who are so dedicated to going to such a school that they will do the hard work of tracking down and applying for outside merit aid. Most students simply don't have that level of motivation.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, it is very unrealistic in virtually all cases to assume that a student needs to have a perfect match college to have a happy, fulfilling college career that puts them on track for success afterward (no matter how one defines "success.")</p>
<p>When we choose our kids' secondary and elementary schools, most of us make do with what's in our area. We know that there will not be a perfect fit, but we don't expect that. We do our best to help our kids make use of the resources that are in their school. We might buy a house in an area that has the best schools that we can afford, but we aren't likely to go on a nationwide search for the perfect schools, and then to upend our lives to give our kids those schools. We know that our kids will be OK with the imperfect matches we are able to give them.</p>
<p>I think that we can do the same thing with colleges. No college is going to be perfect for any student. Every one will have some challenges and shortcomings. We can help the student find the best match that is within our means, and we then can allow our student to use their creativity, energy and intelligence to make the most of their opportunity.</p>
<p>That's the way life works. When they enter the work world, they won't be able to pick and choose until they find a job that is absolutely perfect for them. They won't be able to find a spouse with no flaws or a house with no flaws. Every thing they do will come with some plusses and minuses, and their challenge will be to live fulfilled lives while meeting those challenges.</p>
<p>Many schools don't offer anything for national merit but here is a link to a discussion of schools that do
<a href="http://www.collegeconfidential.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?6/10785%5B/url%5D">http://www.collegeconfidential.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?6/10785</a></p>
<p>Having started at a school I hated because of money, and having watched my D be miserable at a merit aid school, I know there can be a difference. Some of the merit aid proponents here are sending their kids to schools like Wash U and U Chicago; clearly they are not sacrificing quality by any measure in doing so. But those kids are stars among stars; the average student accepted to a high-end school would not get a scholarship from places like that.</p>
<p>So, from my own negative experience and my D's, I came to the conclusion that fit and academic challenge were important, and that maybe the most important thing is to be among likeminded peers. Like many here, we do not qualify for aid, yet 40,000 is a sizable bite out of our income. However, since our income got higher, we have always lived as if our income was about half what it is (H didn't finish medical residency till D was 9, then we had huge loans to repay, so we just kept to the same spending levels, then after loans were paid off, we still kept to the same spending levels, and stashed away everything left for school and retirement.) H is leaving medicine to teach high school, so that could change everything, I guess. But meanwhile, I can't figure what we'd be spending it on if not college.</p>
<p>There's a guy here who chose Univ. of North Fla. over Yale because of the Div. 1 golf program there......another who chose to pay full freight at Princeton over a full scholarship to Chapel Hill......he said he's glad he did.....</p>
<p>Wow, I'm impressed by the number of people on here who got free merit rides to the University of Chicago! Talk about having your cake and eating it, too. If our son had been offered that, it would have made his ultimate decision VERY much more difficult.</p>
<p>Kirmum -- Feel free to e-mail me with Columbia questions. Based on CC posts last year, in which people talked about $200-250 a month for expenses, and with NYC being so expensive, we suggested our son assume he might shell out $300 a month of his own. I don't think he's spending that much. He's a reasonable spender. We told him to take some friends out to eat for his birthday on us, thinking they might head to a nice restaurant. Instead, he ordered Chinese food delivered to his friends during finals week and presented us with the bill:$40.
Another benefit of making your kid responsible for expenses: he sold off some things that have been kicking around the house for years, including old musical instruments. When things get tight, we hope he'll empty out his closet!</p>
<p>Yulsie: Philosophy can only take you so far. We went through all that last year, though in less elegant terms. I can only tell you that you will still be asking yourself those questions even after your kid chooses a college -- probably even after your kid graduates. Ultimately, it just came down to the fact that our kid takes advantages of opportunities -- intellectual and otherwise -- and he chose the place where the opportunities appealed most to him. He earned his choices, and we could pay -- though not without a dent. Does that mean it was "worth it" in either an economic or philosophical sense? Not really. He could have been happy and successful many places.</p>
<p>thought of two more groundrules we set in our pre-application discussions:
since we have a great public university system in our state, we said we would not pay for a private college that wasn't at least as good -- defined as either as good faculty-wise or offering something truely special to him.
if he chose a private university we would only pay for four years. if he went to the public, we'd be willing to pay for five, something to consider since he doesn't know what his major is and might want the flexibility to try things out. of course, since then the public tuition has skyrocketed, but at the time four years of UC tuitition was around one year of tuition at the private colleges he applied to.</p>